Someone stop the ride, I want to get off

I mean, Trump is also defending genocide too though...

Trump being worse deosn't mean we can't criticize Biden right now as the sitting president. I have been very supportive of the need to vote for Biden over Trump, but the Democrats need to stop doubling down on denying the atrocities in Gaza already.
Like they aren't even using nuance or anything at this point. Threateninng the ICC is absolutely ridiculous.
- This is unilaterally discrediting our country on the world stage. Trump was bad enough, but we could tell the world over half the county opposed him, and that he lost the popular vote.
  This guy won the popular vote, and he's out there supporting genocide. What a fucking embarrassment to humanity these "leaders" are. Fuck them both.
  Obligatory yes, I will be voting for Biden again to fend off Trump. I'll like it even less than I did last time, though.
- First things first.
  Criticizing Biden is fine, and everyone should, for the first three years and six months.
  Also, if it wasn’t clear, Biden is super pissed off at Bibi for all his shit. But once trump is defeated we’ll all dogpile on. (Agree dissing ICC is vr bad as well fwiw)
  Until then, there is not much difference between “not voting bc genoside” / “grr biden genocide democrats” and https://www.technologyreview.com/2021/09/16/1035851/facebook-troll-farms-report-us-2020-election/
  I can only think people either are very aware of it (because it’s exactly right) or not aware of it at all, possibly their first time eligible to vote.
- This is the reasonable take.
- Democrats have no choice but to condemn the ICC and deny the genocide is happening because for some completely unknown reason the electorate has been lead to believe Israel is a good, moral state actor with absolutely no ill-intent and has never done anything wrong that was unjustified.
  Now if they ever lie to me about Israel and I find out about it....
- Undermining the ICC is tradition for the USA. There's plenty of people waiting in line to get US soldiers, officers and politicians denounced at the ICC the day they're capable of prosecuting US citizens.
- We needed to get someone back in office who could potentially do something about the atrocities. Instead we elected someone who will double down. That wasn’t a good plan
- I don’t think anyone is denying the atrocities. Or at least none that I’ve seen-
  But what I AM seeing is a lot of people that understand the nuance in the situation, and trying to explain that not voting is going to get Trump. I also see people coming back to challenge this in bad faith knowing it’s been explained to them many times over.
  But we’re not allowed to call these people what they are. So we have to play along with it and pretend it’s all legitimate.
Yes, but Republican voters pretty much ALWAYS vote, and they vote R down the whole ticket. A large portion of people who vote for Democrats only show up to vote if there is someone they can get excited about. Establishment Dems should consider this a law of the universe; it simply is the way it is. Instead of continuously trying to bully these people into showing up to vote (which has the opposite effect) maybe they should start asking what would get these people excited to vote for Joe. And then get Joe to do those things.
They act like everyone owes them a vote. They don't. They are asking for something from the left, they need to start negotiating in good faith and expect to have to give something in return. Doing anything less than whatever it takes to get people to vote for Joe should be considered them trying to lose and get Trump elected again.
- Democrats fall in love.
  Republicans fall in line.
- That would work if voters are reasonable but they're not, there's been something every single time - and yes it's always 'but this time it's serious'
- I have a question, seriously: why are we looking to the President - the Chief Executive Officer - to define our policy? Isn't he supposed to only implement the policies that have been enacted by Congress? Despite how Rs tried to portray Obama, and how Trump would act if given half a chance, the role of President isn't identical to that of King - just how much leeway does he even have here? When tRump tried to insert himself in the opposite manner way back in the day, we impeached him - the President can propose but not define policy, right?
  On that note, he did try to halt funding to Israel. Republicans in Congress overruled him. Ofc the reality is far more complex than what I am portraying here, b/c while he must enact existing policies, again he also should propose new ones too... which he isn't doing much of. But how could we even tell the difference between Biden attempting to "work within the (existing) system", set forth by our behind-the-scenes overlords and Congress + Supreme Court (heavy sidenote: with its current make-up, that Trump put into place), vs. him not really caring that much about the issue at all? Or really, at the end of the day, is there even a functional difference between them?
  I don't know. I truly don't know. All I know is that while Biden may not be as liberal as people would have hoped, tRump is actively anti-liberal. And those are our two choices. :-( If we want better, perhaps we need to put forth some effort to make it happen. Like step up and actually run for office - and then dodge all the literal death threats + attempts that would result from conservatives for doing so. Otherwise, we get whatever they offer to us - they meaning those who will actually act rather than simply talk. Which remember, Biden is one of them, and he even has already made it to the short-list of the only two candidates who matter, which isn't nothing!
Also USA killed this many civilians in Iraq per year, during the entire duration of the war.
- Yes, and GWB was a horrible person for doing that. I thought we learned from these mistakes?
- and what happened? oh yeah actual leftist rabble roused and protested the Iraq war, whereas centrist Dems were lockstep with Republicans to invade over lies.
  Great example, it really shows how little Dems have cared about leftists for decades.
And promising to do one here
Shitty justifications for Biden's support for genocide I've actually seen on lemmy:
In third place: That's the way we've always done it.
In second: We're worried that the people who chanted "Jews will not replace us" will call us antisemitic.
And now in first place: Trump did it so that makes it ok.
- Let's just get this clear: Most everyone "defending" genocide aren't happy what's happening. If the world was perfect and always going the way we wanted, this would never be. We don't vote Biden, even if we celebrate the (all too uncommen) victories. We vote Blue, for hope.
Is this 'bOtH sIdEs'? or 'wHaTaBoUt TrUmP'?
- The way I interpreted their comment is that people often mention Biden supports genocide and some people may assume Trump doesn't - so it's worth mentioning that of course Trump supports genocide too (on top of all the other horrible shit he supports contributing to why he shouldn't be in power).

Trump wants to be dictator and is talking about a third term and you dipshits still keep on with your divisive nonsense meant to push people into political apathy. Lol this site's political discourse has been completely hijacked by bad-faith, blame Dems at all costs bullshit.

To those not acting in bad faith, you should vote Biden because at least you know he will peacefully step down when his term is up. Trump will try more J6 style violence to stay in power. Could you imagine 20 years of Trump, or if he appointed one of his kids president?

Pull your head out of your ass and vote Biden.

Sounds like Biden and the Dems should be trying pretty hard to get young people and progressives to show up this year... Maybe calling them "dipshits" isn't an effective tactic? In fact, I would say this is the kind of thing that turns people off from giving a shit.. Are you TRYING to get Trump elected? How about instead of bullying the voters you're trying to convince to do what you want them to do, you could try putting that pressure on the Dems to start doing what it takes to get people to show up and vote
- What I find amusing is that the primary season hasn't even officially ended yet. The convention is in August. There are numerous states that haven't even cast a ballot for Biden. And we're already absolutely inundated with "You have to vote for him or you're a traitor to your nation!" hyperbole.
  You'd think people could at least save their most hysterical outcries until the general election season has officially started. But no. Everyone on Lemmy is expected to bend the knee right now, at this very instant, because otherwise Trump might become President... six months early?
  There's simply no room in the political calendar for any kind of criticism of the sitting President.
- I am starting to believe that the OP type of people aren't actually Biden supporters or democrats but paid for Republicans/operatives who have market researched the most effective way to reduce voter turnout. Kind of like how cigarette companies were forced to make anti smoking ads and went with the least effective or most counter-effective campaigns they could go with.
The simplest way to "stop Trump" is for Biden to stop supporting Israel's genocide and yet the Democratic Party sock puppets never ever demand that Biden stops supporting Israel's genocide and instead it's everybody else who is to blame for the increasing likelihood that Trump won't get stopped even while Biden doesn't shift an inch on his position.
It's quite the "curious" take that Biden shouldn't have to stop supporting genocide even to "stop Trump" and instead it's everybody else who has a moral obligation to vote for a shamelessly committed genocide supporter to "stop Trump".
The whole thing has a heavy heavy stink of "the boss is always right and you have to support the boss or else" of both Dictatorships and Criminal Organisations.
- I think you are very unfair in how you paint the picture. Biden shouldn't support genocide, obviously. But realistically, you have to choose between 2 genocide supporters. And "stopping trump" is a good reason to vote for 1 genocide supporter over the other. Obviously you don't like the genocide supporters and you shouldn't be forced to choose one but you are living in a (practically) 2 party system and both run a genocide supporter.
If they're wasn't blame to be directed at democrats we wouldn't be directing it at them
To democrats in government, pull your heads out of your asses And stop supporting the genocide
I couldn't make you people any more apathetic if I tried, Jesus
- I'm just curious. Were you old enough to vote in 2016?
  Not looking to judge or call you out or anything, I'm just curious because you sound a lot like me when they tried to shove Hilary down our throats. She was shit, and I understand how frustrating it is when the only party that hasn't gone bat shit crazy does whatever the hell it wants because they know there's no possible way they could piss us off enough to vote Republican.
  That being said. I didn't vote for Hilary. I went third party because the Head Dems needed to learn that they can't just decide who the nominee will be and then put their finger on the scale during the primary.
  Obviously, they did not learn that lesson, and since then the GOP has doubled down on fascism and insanity.
  If I could go back, I'd have happily voted for Hilary. If Trump had never won, we'd have a more trustworthy Supreme Court, and clowns like MTG and Boebert wouldn't be acting the fool for attention.
  And that's why I ask if you were involved in the 2016 election, because we've already done this, and it bit us in the ass. That's why we aren't trying to talk people out of voting for Biden. If we don't unify behind this chucklefuck, we may never get a chance to elect someone we actually want again.
  For the record, Israel can fuck right off with the shit they are doing, but that's a conflict that's been going on my whole life, and expecting Joe Biden, or any one person, to fly in and bring peace to the other side of the world just isn't plausible.
  We're on the same side here, but if we're divided on Biden, Trump wins again, and NONE of us want that.
Well it's the other way round... Posts shaming people who threaten to not vote pop up every other day. If the shamers could hold their guns till say October, while the rest of us trynto pressure policymakers to, y'know, stop an ongoing genocide
Most sane thing I've read in a while. Hard to make progress starting out from even worse situation. Plus people are dumb. The genocide is terrible, but geopolitics are not as simple as just swinging the nuts around.
Found the genocide apologist. Sleep well knowing you are going to vote pro-genocide?
These are just accelerationists who already hate 'the west'.
It doesn't matter what the occurrences around the world are, or who is at bat. They will always find something to blast the Internet with during election year in hopes to push the worst candidate up in the polls.
It's obvious and hella funny considering their mental gymnastics.
Lemmy as a platform was designed for this exact purpose; spread misinformation and cloud actual conversations with image macros of pigs shitting on its own balls and shitposts.
- Yeah, you're pretty spot on here mate!

ITT: you're a Trump supporter if you call genocide genocide.

There's a lot of people who plan on voting Biden, myself included, who effectively feel held hostage at this point. "Don't criticize support for genocide or Trump is going to destroy the country and probably kill a lot of people" is probably one of the most frustrating political discourses I've ever experienced. The folks making this argument are right in that Trump winning is bad for everyone, including the Palestinians, and I can empathize with the pragmatism there. That said, that argument rings hollowly for me, because it comes across as so utterly cynical. It reads (to me) as though genocide registers at the same level of urgency as dysfunction at the DMV. They're sorry for the inconvenience (and probably they really are sorry that it's happening) but non-combatants getting starved, shot, drone striked, and buried under rubble by our allies is just not something that's convenient to deal with right now. I wonder if they think the Palestinians find it very convenient.

I mean its barely about what people here think.
Broadly, Biden supporting this genocide in the way that he has is costing him the election. Acknowledging this doesn't mean you support Trump. Arguing that if you don't support Biden in-spite of this position is headspinning, and some posters here (@PugJesus@lemmy.world ) are doing the work of trying to separate the left from Democrats in this regard.
The problem is that beating/ guilting/ shaming voters doesn't work. It literally never has. Its been demonstrated, over and over again to be a counterproductive strategy.
So what if you've been convinced that its OK for Biden do a little genocide? The whole god-damned point is that other people don't believe the same thing you do, and if you actually want to stop Trump you really only have two options. You can either try to convince voters that a little genocide is acceptable if its coming from Democrats, or you can try and convince Democrats that no amount of genocide is acceptable, regardless of the ally committing it.
Its far more sensible to bring your criticisms to the Democrats in showing that you wont vote for them if they don't shift their positions on Gaza, than it is to engage in a demonstrable failure of an approach to rhetoric to try and shame people into voting for a only slightly less supportive of genocide candidate.
You can move a politician. Every election cycle politicians move positions. I mean fucking hell, look how far the left was able to drag Biden last election cycle! He basically went from a Republican slate of policy positions to something actually on the left. He didn't do this his own; he did this to get elected because that's what the voters wanted. Biden can be moved on this, but blaming voters, especially when you know they are on the right side of the issue, is setting 2024 up for disaster.
- I'm just amazed at the amount they punch left then don't understand why it's always an issue.
- The problem is that beating/ guilting/shaming voters doesn’t work.
  You forgot to add gaslighting.
  or you can try and convince Democrats that no amount of genocide is acceptable, regardless of the ally committing it.
  The problem is that there is absolutely no way of "forcing" the (so-called) "Democratic" party on this through "formal" means - if you vote for them and they win, they will simply know that they can get you to rubber-stamp their complicity in genocide. If you vote for them and they lose or you punish them by not voting and they lose, they still won't care - they know that four years of Trump will force you back to the ballots to vote for them in four years' time anyway. In fact, I suspect they are betting on the latter scenario.
  You're being pushed up against a wall - a wall that wouldn't be there if you actually lived in a democratic society.
- Everyone should block PugJesus for a better Lemmy experience.
- I'm gonna go touch some grass, i'll pass my baton to you.
- PugJesus has been a constant wedge between Leftists and Liberals. They only serve to be a terminally online agitator, and whenever it's pointed out that their agitative propaganda only serves to confirm anti-leftist bias among Lemmy.world's liberals and further ruins a broader leftist-liberal coalition, ironically making fewer people vote for Biden, they just mald and disengage.
  When I asked what they truly believe, they believe themselves to be a leftist that doesn't agree with Marx's Dialectical Materialism.
  They reserve only the harshest criticism for actually existing Socialist movements, such as when they trashed the Black Panther Party, but fight tooth and nail for a nuanced view of Liberalism and Liberal movements against Leftists.
  No leftist is pure enough, no liberal impure enough.
  It truly makes me wonder if PugJesus has any actual firmly held beliefs or if they just act in reflex.
- W How is it costing him the election any polls to back this up?
- Nobody thinks a little genocide is okay. Nobody is saying that at all. But it's not a choice between a little genocide and no genocide. It's a difference between a little genocide and a LOT of genocide. When Trump gives his blessing to glassing Gaza with a nuke, will you tell the remnants of the civilians that are left that it's fine because the Democrats will understand now that they should've been harder on Israel?
  What is actually more important? Doing what's best for the Palestinians from the options that actually exist, or punishing Democrats?
  I'm not any happier than you are about the choices that we have, but wishful thinking doesn't give us a third path. This isn't a movie. To get a third option you'd have to convince at the very least a plurality of the population of the US to vote for another candidate that is gung-ho behind forcing Israel to stop (a proposition that isn't guaranteed even if the US cuts off all support today, by the way). That's a tall order, especially with how well it's going convincing 100 or so people on a Lemmy thread.
- The problem is that beating/ guilting/ shaming voters doesn’t work. It literally never has. Its been demonstrated, over and over again to be a counterproductive strategy.
  Ah yes, the evidence of that being [checks notes] Hillary, a notoriously unpopular and uncharismatic politician, narrowly losing due to the electoral college.
  I guess people in 2020 were just REALLY fired up about Biden, huh?
This is such a weird strawman
Nobody on Lemmy likes genocide, as far as I can tell. I saw somebody who was in favor of it a couple days ago, which makes 2 users I have ever seen.
So first a whole bunch of people got up and said, I'm never voting for Biden because he ruined the economy and fucked up on climate change and made marijuana illegal again and did family separation and caused Covid and also personally did a genocide and is super happy about the war in Gaza because it's exactly what he wanted
Then a second whole bunch of people said hey every single one of those things except part of the last one isn't true, also, Trump is worse on the genocide piece
And so now the first people are insisting that what the second people said was, "Don't criticize support for genocide". That wasn't the point. The fact that a good bit of what the people in the first group are saying, is wrong, means they get people disagreeing with them, which always gets misrepresented as some lunatic pro-genocide silencing of criticism. But it's pretty much never a message of "please stop criticizing my genocide guy otherwise Trump might win."
If you want to express urgency about helping the Palestinians, please do so. Send messages to your congresspeople. Vote "uncommitted." Go to a protest. Tell Biden he'll only get your vote if he (X, Y, Z). Any of those things, or something else. Sounds great.
I think the thing you're hearing is more "I want to end genocide just as much as you do, now let's talk about how to do it, and also yes how to avoid one that's 10 times worse that depending on how we go about it might be one of the possible outcomes." I don't see why that would be frustrating to hear. And I don't think it's at all the same as "please stop criticizing Biden that's not allowed" or anything like that. Most of the threads on this topic have their most upvoted comment as "Jesus Christ I wish he wouldn't do that" or something along those lines; this fiction where criticizing Biden for enabling this genocide is at all unpopular is not at all the reality.
I wonder if they think the Palestinians find it very convenient.
Actually, one of them weighed in on Lemmy on this exact narrative, where people are using his dead relatives to justify this one very particular political stance about being reluctant to vote for Joe Biden (and for some reason not to justify getting involved in some electoral or non-electoral way to actually help his relatives who are still alive). He wasn't about it.
- Is it a straw man, though? Just look at the post we're in. OP, at face value, wants the democrats to win but thinks they're bungling the odds by supporting genocide. There's already multiple commenters accusing them of being Trump supporters, as well as at least one commenter I've seen so far suggesting that we can't be critical about this now because the election is too important.
- Every additional issue Biden ignores he looses a portion of his base's enthusiasm. Sure, some of these people would never vote for Biden for a bunch of reasons, but everyone has a limit to what they're willing to concede on, and I have to say that supporting a genocidal project is a pretty big one.
  It would be irresponsible if we weren't sounding the alarms that he's strayed too far away from his winning coalition. That's not me being principled (even though it is), that's me being pragmatic.
  Everyone else who's rallying a couple hundred users on lemmy to ignore that issue is covering their eyes to the oncoming train.
- I've been on the receiving end of names such as "Genocide Lover" and man is that just exactly what I wish my Dad who went to get cigarettes and never came back would have called me before he left. I agree with you. People for some damned reason seem to be stuck.
  The Genocide sucks balls.
  Trump sucks balls.
  Trump + Power = Genocide Ball Sucking on a whole new level
  Biden sucks a bit less balls, though would suck far less if he stepped up and actually condemned the Genocide properly. Currently, Biden's big balls are on fire.
  Like, none of this situation is good. Most of it is malicious and evil on too many levels, and faaaar more complicated than the majority of us realize. At the end of the day we do have three significant immediate problems:
  Ukraine and Putin
  Gaza and the Genocide
  Trump and the GOP
  We CAN focus on all of these and it doesn't have to be to the exclusion, or support/lack-thereof, of the others. Problem is, every time you say "Shit's bad and this Genocide is evil, vote Biden for the love of God." Someone comes screaming in with a, "BIDEN?! YOU SUPPORT GENOCIDE?!" and you can't get a sideways word in.
- So first a whole bunch of people got up and said, I'm never voting for Biden because he ruined the economy and fucked up on climate change and made marijuana illegal again and did family separation and caused Covid and also personally did a genocide and is super happy about the war in Gaza because it's exactly what he wanted
  For the record: this is a strawman. You know that saying about Republicans always accusing others of the things they're guilty of themselves? I would suggest not following the Republican playbook.
- Nobody on Lemmy likes genocide, as far as I can tell
  As someone who frequents worldnews from lemmy.world, a sizable amount of IDF apologists who do actually defend genocide show up every week, although they consistently get banned.
  There's also a bunch of wackos on Hexbear and Lemmygrad who will sneer with joy at the idea of Ukrainians getting displaced to never be able to return, although you have to dig in to find them.
- Tell Biden he’ll only get your vote if he (X, Y, Z).
  If you have to vote for him anyway this is an empty threat. And they know it.
Criticize all you want. I certainly do. But understand at the end of the day that as pathetically little as Biden is doing to help, he isn't doing literally zero. Allowing Trump to win is objectively voting for MORE genocide, and in fact, the end of any potential for a Palestinian state in any form. None of this is secret - none of this is speculation. If people would take 15 minutes and read the ACTUAL Trump middle eastern peace plan that he ACTUALLY PUT FORTH when he was president, it's pretty obvious he would allow MUCH MUCH worse than Biden without batting an eye.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_peace_plan
There is no room for argument on that. Is Biden bad for Palestinians and allowing genocide? Yes. Would allowing Trump to win be WORSE? Yes. You're upset that angry wolves are eating someone, and you should be. But the solution is not replacing them with angry bears.
- They literally just said they were voting for Biden. Why are you lecturing them? All you're doing is demonstrating that Democrats don't listen.
I make the same comment in all these threads, but you don’t have to vote for Biden. I’m planning on voting psl this November and you can too.
- Forgive me, but the only psl I know is Pumpkin Spice Latte. Care to explain?
I'm horrified by what's going on in Gaza. It's an atrocity that deserves maximum attention and intervention above pretty much any issue.
Biden is absolutely shitting the bed on this. But Trump isn't gonna clean the sheets.
It's not that genocide is a tertiary issue. It's that both candidates will be complicit in the genocide, so it literally isn't a factor when looking at the candidates.
- If Biden doesn't change course on this, he will lose.
POASIWID
In this comment: a bullshit-ass straw man

Its very simple.

If you think it's bad now, for you, for Palestinians, for whoever, wait until Trump is in power. He'll commit actual genocide, as in wipe them all out, as he claimed anyways, he'll install himself as a dictator, as he claimed, and I'm not even starting with that Republican 2025 document that would like to make America into Gilead.

So shit up, swallow your pride, vote Biden. as soon as Biden is elected, protest all you want, block roads, whatever, but for now, vote Biden if you want the world to at least survive the next four years semi recognizably.

An actual genocide is happening right now. If biden doesn't feel pressured to stop the genocide at the risk of losing votes in an election year, what makes you think he'll stop it when he's not at any risk of losing the election?
- Several genocides are going on right now, and have been for decades, almost like it's got nothing to do with who's in charge in the US or something.
- I don't think he'll stop. But from a practical standpoint you're voting between the status quo level of genocide, and an even GREATER level of genocide. Voting for MORE genocide is objectively worse.
- what makes you think he'll stop it
  Odds are better for Biden. Slim is better than none.
  Get it clear: this isn't a vote about Biden. It's a vote about America and it's a clean binary choice between two bad options; one worse than the other. If you don't choose the far-less-worse imperfect option, you need to be okay with the worse imperfect option if it should emerge victorious.
- You're vastly overestimating the power the US has. We can't even get our allies to stop funding Russia and selling them advanced technology.
  The only people capable of stopping what is happening in Gaza are Netanyahu and the Israeli people.
- An actual genocide is happening right now.
  Yeah, but Biden's not the one committing it. Biden is an incidental element of a much larger apparatus and if that apparatus is primarily meant to commit this particular genocide, he's not a particularly effective one.
  what makes you think he'll stop it when he's not at any risk of losing the election?
  Literally nothing. No one is arguing that borderline unconditional support will make Biden change his mind. Why would you even ask? On the other hand, if making Biden think he's gonna lose won't sufficiently motivate him, then threatening to not vote is just an ineffective strategy. Your premise undermines the conclusion you seem to be hinting at.
- This is about preserving a system that's at least recoverable in it's current state. If you don't vote for Biden your voting for an authoritarian regime and it's not even an exaggeration. Trump just had a promo video referencing a new Reich in America.
  This is the easiest decision American voters have ever had. Go look up what happened when Trump was in power for 4 years and what has happened with Biden for 4 years. We have data on how they both acted in power. That's incredibly rare. Compare them objectively.
  Moral high ground about Israel, while correct, is a hill compared to the mountain of evidence that shows what has happened and will continue to happen under trump if he returns to power. State secrets for sale, supreme Court seats, threats to never relinquish power, codified laws hunting down women who seek abortions, laws against trans and gays, j6 insurrection....you're actively supporting that by not standing against trump.
  Abstaining from voting for Biden this fall is a vote for Trump in a first past the post system. You will be complicit. You will literally be responsible for violence against minorities having played an active part in helping trump return to power. It's hypocritical to allow that while condemning Biden on Israel.
  I get it, I promise. I didn't vote for Hillary or Trump in 2016 and I see now what that ended up doing to our country. I regret it. I won't do it again.
  It's impossible to reconcile your disgust for Israeli support from America with the violence you will permit to minorities in America if you don't vote for Biden. You're not wrong for hating it, but you must realize what you're going to do to people with a no vote or a throwaway vote.
- Again, irrelevant.
  Biden isn't doing much (not enough anyway) to stop this but AGAIN... There is bad and there is MUCH MUCH FORKING WORSE.
  What part of trump do you not understand? Do you want Palestinians eradicated from the world or what? I don't get you people. You want things better for Palestinians, awesome! Me too. Now, how do we get there? "Let's make sure trump gets in office!!!" WTF?
- It's a war.
- Because the ballot box is not the only means of civic duty. Contine protests, ramp up activisim, engage in our society more than just voting once every 4 years.
That is how they teach negotiation in school
The fact that all anybody can come up with is "if you don't like genocide, you better vote for genocide or else genocide" is proof that
A -democrats are also right wing warmongering fascists, just waving a pride flag
B- America is already lost, there's no pulling it back, and it's just a waiting room for the fall of the empire
- That's all you can come up with for your strawman.
  Plenty of people find accusations of genocide by Israel to be misinformed.

Watch Biden supporters lash out at communists and muslims if Biden fails to get reelected, rather than looking at the horrendous position the Democrats have taken.

The great thing is you don't have to wait! They're doing it now.
I suspect their time is spent with leftists just because it's so infuriating to talk to Republicans at all. The leftist will argue long term versus short term strategy, the Republican will argue about what his imaginary friend wants.
- Lol I've been yelled at so much today I can't even tell if this is sarcastic
- Watch LGBTQ+ people get genocided right here in America because lefties
  Conservative with a gun
  LGBTQ dead body
  Liberal: "Leftists did this. Now vote for me so I can pardon the conservative."
- Watch LGBTQ+ people get genocided
  We're armed, although liberals are doing everything they can to prevent it.
  Red states are expanding their 2A rights while blue states limit their own. You have fascist militias popping up all over the place and what legislation do you think will disarm them? That cat is out of the bag. Us 'lefties' understand that Jon Stewart is not going to show up and save us with a witty quip when some christian nationalist has us on our knees in front of a ditch.
  There may come a time we'll all wish we had access to non-nerfed rifles and normal capacity magazines. Liberals are doing nothing productive to deal with this rise of fascism.
  I'll be voting democrat, but let's not pretend that voting republican light is going to defeat christofascism.
- This is a painful argument because this whole protest vote issue revolves entirely around the refusal to take the political risk of acknowledging or trying to stop a genocide.
- Yeah! And watch immigrants and migrants get deported en mass and draconian fascist law be implemented at the border....oh, what? That was Democrats too? Damn...
  Well uh...bodily autonomy? No, dems had a chance to legislate that under Obama and refused to do so.
  Hm...
  Campaign finance reform? Oh, nope, they take the same corporate money.
- As one of those LGBTQ+ people, I have no faith in people protecting me who won't speak out against genocide
- Genocided? Lmao what? Bro, don't cheapen the meaning of actual tragedies
As is tradition.
But Biden was able to negotiate with the more moderate fascists!
Most progress we've had since Reagan!!!!
- Actually not since Reagan but since Trump.
  FTFY
Owwwww my nose! Worth it though, piece of shit face!
- Face: democratic coalition Nose: voters upset about supporting a genocide
Which conservative activist judges installed by trump to the supreme court overturned Roe v Wade?
I'm constantly fighting with liberals and leftists that only think of themselves. Harm reduction is not working.

I fucking hate that the only other option is a fascist tyrant with designs on overthrowing our government.

Literally has a guidebook written and published as part of his campaign. And people still vote for him.
- What is this?
- I wonder if either party has a level of depravity they'll put up with before choosing to not vote for their candidate
  My feeling is maybe not
A fascist tyrant who will publicly support the genocide. It doesn't matter who will be president, genocide support will happen regardless. It's just a question of whether a fascist will take office or not.
- Not probably, he's already said that nukes should be used.
Jill Stein
- If we had ranked choice voting across the board I might actually vote for her or another. But seeing as we only have two practical options, that's not realistic to vote for her if we expect it to fend off the worse of two voting options. In other words, voting for her doesn't help avoid Trump. It in fact draws votes away from the Biden option since she's a green option which wouldn't realistically draw any votes from the right.

a fantastic reason to want them to lose
And their version of genocide includes using nuclear weapons.

I deleted this comment because I realized I don't actually wanna take part in an extremely tribal ethno-religious debate. I'll just say the following things everyone should agree on:

Any government anywhere that holds one ethnicity or religion above another is fundamentally wrong and oppressive
Everyone who minds their own business has a right to be safe from violence
Maximizing good things and minimizing bad things is good, obviously. But this also applies to voting.

That first point gets so lost it boggles my mind. "Isreal has a right to exist as a Jewish state" say our American leaders. I'm sorry, when did the American government, with the principle of seperation of church and state in its constitution, decide that we're going to defend, I need cheer on, another country organizing its government and individual rights around who is subscribed to the right religion? Like da fuck, "X country has a right to exist as a Y religion state" is just entirely contrary to core American values.
But when politicians say it, when democrats say it, when Chuck Schumer says it, no journalist is like, hey so why are we supporting a country with a two tiered system of rights based on religion? It doesn't even come up, it's a given, it's a table stakes position. I feel like a missed something in history class about how the US came to that default position. My best guess in the holocaust happened, so therefore jews in Isreal get a free pass on running rough shod over the rights of the religious minority in their territory indefinitely?
To be clear, nothing against Jewish people or the Jewish religion or any of that. What ever wild and wacky god you want to worship or set of books you want to put your faith in, as long as your not hurting anyone else, I don't give a shit. We're all trying to cope with being born on this blue marble without explanation or instruction in our own way, so if religion does something for you, who am I to yuck your yum.
I'm just not a fan of a government organized around religion at the expense of the religious minority population. And I don't think it's consistent with American value to be cheering that on or asserting that some particular religion has a "right" to their own state. And I certainly don't think when that country rounds up their religious minority, puts walls around them, controls everything that goes into or out of their open air prison, that the US should be sending the religious majority bombs to drop on the religious minority. Kind of objectively fucked up if you ask me.
minding your buisness and not preventing fascist dictators has as a consequence that violence will be enacted wether you want it or not silence is violence not because of some ideals but because of the way reality is
- Or specifically in this case and paraphrasing somebody else adaptation on this and the original author's whole point:
  "First they came for Palestinians but because I was not a Palestinian I did nothing"
- minding your buisness and not preventing fascist dictators
  I like this because it is so flexible. Who's the fascist? What constitutes minding your business and doing nothing?

When all you want is for Trump to win, but your only winning strategy in the playbook is what Reagan did to fuck over Carter back in 1980. Gotta drive those social media vibes and it worked once, right?

but your only winning strategy in the playbook is what Reagan did to fuck over Carter back in 1980
Netanyahu 🤝Ayatollah Khomeini
🤝 = helping US fascists win so their own brand of fascism can continue unopposed
Aiding genocide really isn’t a good look. It’d be nice if the current administration didn’t. Also, threatening the ICC with sanctions reflects rather poorly.
- Cool. Agreed. Spending all day churning out memes about it sounds like a job though, huh? Wonder if it pays well.
- It's all just optics. Everything is just 'bad optics'.
Reagan? Hell, hEr EmAiLz and Pizza pedos is the same strategy. That was just yesterday, apparently.
- I don't need to sleuth through Biden's emails to see he's in complete willful denial of Israel's genocide. Wait that's not fair, I suppose there's still a question about Israel's intent... Complete willful denial of Isreal's war crimes. That's been well established, right?

Tik Tok or whatever needs to start teaching the children the actual history of the US so they realize we don't get to vote for not killing children in this country. Fewer children, sure. And we might even pretend to be sad about it.

But if you don't want to vote for child killing you're gonna have to move because no matter who you vote for it's going to happen in your name.

And we might even pretend to be sad about it.
we are certainly very good at that.
- Once an appropriate amount of time has passed. Honestly, Biden's innovation is that he isn't waiting to be sad about it. He's very sad about the genocide as he tells the ICC off for investigating the genocide, as he ships more weapons. Hell, someone should tell him to erect a Gaza memorial next to the Veitnam War Memorial, to show just how much it pains him to kill all these brown people.

You guys are playing with fire

I think we can all agree that there is definitely a fire.
Who is playing with it, I think, is what the entire disagreement is over.
I dont normally throw my hat into these posts... But your right.
The single-issue voters with deomcrat leanings may end up throwing the election and that is very concerning. They do not appear to understand the consequences of what happens if 45 returns. If you fall into any demographic that has had an increase in rights and civil liberties in the last 150 years, I would be very worried about him attempting to remove them. On foreign policy, his attempts to undermine NATO and his fondness for dictators and despots should be the redest flag imaginable. That shift in geopolitics alone would be disastrous for billions of people, the scope of issues at hand for the US 2024 election is much larger than the conflict in Gaza.
I agree that this system is fucked and that it is fundementally broken. The leaders we have are both bad choices, but one activly wants to stear the ship into the rocks, and unlike last time, he knows where the levers of power are now.
My message to the single-issue protest voters, your in the same boat as the MAGA crowd, you are a useful idiot.
- The single-issue voters with deomcrat leanings may end up throwing the election and that is very concerning.
  objectively true. You're options are:
  convince single-issue anti-genocide voters that a little bit of genocide is ok if democrats are doing it
  convince the democratic party that supporting genocide might lose them the election
  for myself I think I know what the more sensible option is.

Public education has failed us all.

They have been bleeding public education dry for decades. Of course it has.
Higher education has embarrassed us all.
I'm pretty sure Biden went to a private school.

While I agree with you, it's very disingenuous to label everyone you disagree with a Russian bot on this matter. And people are very well in their right to criticize Biden for his political stance. Some people have family members that died in Palestine. You can't expect them to jump with joy at the thought of voting for Biden.

@PugJesus@lemmy.world cough cough

That dude is the absolute worst.

Democrats still use reddit and subscribe to worldnews. That's the only reason I can think off.

Oh man, you made me visit that place for the first time in many years. It has become worse, how is that even possible? Whole discussions on long debunked fake news...
- I friendly pointed out that the source is fake and they banned me. Lol.

There`s just no winning on this matter. Genocide Joe or dictator fascist Trump with even more genocide

Why do people keep framing it like it's either genocide or fascism? Do people just give Trump a free pass because he's upfront about letting Isreal go scorched earth on Gaza? It's genocide or genocide and fascism. It doesn't matter who you vote for, America is going to support genocide either way. What you're voting for is either democratic leader supporting genocide or a fascist leader supporting genocide.
- It doesn't matter who you vote for, America is going to support genocide either way.
  That is the express goal of the Zionist lobby.
  Normally they'd spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to influence the policies of both major American political parties.
  This year they're spending millions on primary races. On individual races.
  So another way of looking at these protests is bleeding Israeli money: raising the overall cost for influencing American politics. The less tacit approval there is for a genocide, the harder it is for Israel to buy our candidates and elected officials.
  Not exactly a fool's errand, simply put.
- Because that's what it fucking is, but it's not either or, it's genocide or genocide AND
  the people here obsessing over that binary are forgetting that political campaigns OBSESS over turnout numbers, and right now it looks BLEAK for Biden
  Instead of yelling at their representatives (and making it widely known that this will tank him) they're too busy congratulating themselves for settling on their own willingness to choose one from possibly the two LEAST POPULAR presidential candidates in living memory
  "Grab a fucking bucket" lmao, the bucket they're describing is the size of a thimble and most people they're talking to fucking resent the party demanding they bail water with it.
  Good fucking luck man lol
- Probably because the Nazis where famous for commiting genocide. Fascism is an ideology of genocide. You don't need to spell it out but it's ok that you did.
- Not what I meant idd. Genocide whoever wins the next elections
- Very well said.
No, you forgot something.
It's either supporting genocide or supporting genocide + fascism.
Upheaval is it then.
Third party over and over again to let the Democrats know we're serious.
- Comrade, just take off your mask and vote Republican.

There really is no third option? Strange kind of democracy.

I'm still waiting on who'll become the martyr for the third option. Because as far as I'm concerned, no third option is gonna arise naturally.

That fucker is making it a challenge I'll give him that. Just shut up about it, that's all he has to do. Shutting up about genocide is how we've ignore genocides across the world for the last 50 years. It works. Most people don't even know Jimmy Carter helped carry out a genocide. Jimmy fucking Carter. Just don't talk about and Americans will immediately forget. So Biden please shut the fuck up. Join the fraternity of every president of the last well all of our history in committing genocide that isn't well-publicized.

It would be far preferable for him to stop supporting the genocide, I think.
- Duh
Jimmy Carter was able to quietly support genocide because there were only 3 TV news stations at the time. None of them would mention Cambodia, you had to read the 14th page of the NYT to actually be informed.
This level of broad-based ignorance is no longer possible in the internet era.
And beside that, "just shut up and keep genociding" is a shocking and evil stance to take. Ignoring morality and hiding behind realpolitik is how we get figures like Kissinger, Netanyahu, and Hitler.
- The only shocking thing here is how completely you missed the tone of a very obviously tongue and cheek comment. You might be spending too much time on this site. Maybe go touch grass for a while buddy.

Who the hell is defending genocide?

Threatening the international criminal court because they are investigating a genocide is defending genocide
- That’s because of the good old boys club making sure the ICC doesn’t start grabbing “western” leaders. Not because of genocide. Make no mistake that they place themselves above any one country’s actions.
Joe Biden
- He refuses to call it a genocide. He condemns some of the Israeli actions, as inadequate as that is.
Gaslight much?
- That’s a meaningless comment.
  What “democrats”? Even Biden is softballing the issue even if he isn’t outright condemning it (as he should, the bastard should call it genocide). I’ve never seen any Dems here or on Reddit saying it isn’t a genocide. If you’re referring to the few at the top that refuse to call a spade a spade, yeah…that’s plural “democrats”, but overall nobody is defending “genocide”, but some fools are mealy-mouthing the ridiculous overreaction by Israel.
- Strawman vs gaslighting, who will win?
- You have to vote for Biden or else!
Biden apparently.
The strawman.

- Downvoted for thought crimes against the bad-faith discussion.

One supports Israel no matter what and the other supports Israel no matter what and wants LGBT people dead, tried to overthrow our government, killed over a million americans by ignoring epidemiologists' warnings and guidance about dealing with covid and packed the supreme court resulting in women losing rights restored to them 50 years ago. Dont fucking tell me the two are the same.

Lmao, back at ya?

Do you think we send the aid and the bombs over on the same ships?

It would be much more efficient

It’s a good thing that most of the people that say they aren’t voting aren’t of voting age to begin with.

Or, not inside the US
Thank God, because otherwise it would have been stupid to ignore them
I'm voting for Stein or West, but it's true that I'm three kids in a trench coat. I didn't realize it was so obvious.
- Then you are voting in support of the genocide in Ukraine. Both of those candidates are parroting Putin's view and are against supporting Ukraine in defending itself.

Totally posted in good faith

Nice try trickdacy
- He accurately called you out, you even commented back to prove it didn't even bother you a bit, bro
Not much said by that crowd is in good faith, but if you overreach in calling them out, you get banned.

Supporting terrorists or genocide? Choose your poison.

You're still supporting genocide if you don't vote for Biden. Trump wants to nuke Gaza.
- piss or shit
  if you choose shit you'll still get a bit of piss, choose piss
- Source?

Oh, look... it's the daily dose of "Genocide Joe" propaganda.

"There's no war in Ba Sing Se"
They throw around the word genocide like it's candy
- and you do genocide denial like it makes you seem credible

When all you want is for Trump to lose. But the Tik Tok generation keeps barfing chinese propaganda

Even for me this is a pretty low-effort comment.
You saying the Palestinian genocide is the propaganda? I have bad news if you think it is...

Still the lesser of 2 evils no? Not like trump’s moral compass is particularly good either…

What is the point when liberals accept genocide. My dude at least if Trump was doing it more people would be mobilizing against it. What is honestly better in this situation?
- Yeah but, option a) someone who supports genocide but wants to make your life more difficult or option b) someone who supports genocide but what’s to try and make your life better?
- The mere fact that Netanyahu wants Trump back in office should really give you a hint as to what's the worst option here. Also the idea that people would mobilize more if Trump was offices simply silly. If tens of thousands of dead women and children don't mobilize you nothing's going to mobilize you.
- Still Biden. Trump promises literal concentration camps. He wants a genocide here. Biden is begging Israel and Palestine for a ceasefire.
We certainly should not be upset about the position the Democrats have put the voters in.
- Ah, yes, if only the Democrats hadn't put the voters in this position by the voters nominating Biden in 2020. Damn those voters! They ruined voting!

The choices are ending what’s left of democracy and not. That’s it.

Also, high odds you’re voting for Kamala, not Joe.

Also, high odds you’re voting for Kamala, not Joe.
Oh, does she have a different stance on supporting genocide?

I don't know what the shit happened but I think we would like a different candidate. Like it would be cool to seek mini thermonukes after the Hamas leaders but wow, they went all out and we're at the point where Hamas is the victim and needs defending. It's like meeting your bully after school, so he shows up and punches you, but then you body slam his face on granite and beat it with a 10ft 2x4...lengthwise.

Maybe we should try someone else. Oh wait, I forgot! We the people don't pick a president. We just tell the government who would be cool if they were president. Then the government asks a small group of unknown people who were not elected if they agree or if they got a way better president for us instead. You know, representative democracy like that.

But nah not maga dufus. It's gotta be someone in their mid 30s for me please.

it would be cool to seek mini thermonukes after the Hamas leaders
Wat?

When all you want is for Trump to lose, it means you have zero plan. Obviously if you don’t have a plan, other people are gonna carry out theirs instead.

If all I wanted was for Trump to lose I'd be covering my eyes to his flaws edit: and getting everyone else to
- But you're eagerly covering your eyes to the reality that it's a binary choice between bad and so much worse.

Top text: “When you pretend you want Trump to lose”

Bottom text: “But you really want Trump to win and it’s obvious”

Sigh.... I am so tired of this gaslighting.
Just because people criticize Biden does not mean they are a follower of the MAGA cult.
Biden can do so much better then this. People want a reason to support him.
Instead we are being blamed for Biden's failures, because Biden chooses not to listen. While every time we try to change course we are being told we are anti-democratic. That we are trying to get Trump elected.
Like the average voter has more power then the president.
At this point, I am on no-body's side, because no one is anti-genocide.
- I'm Asian and every time I criticize biden the comment is down voted. Sometimes they also call me Trump supporter. It's honestly sad looking at the state of Americans.

But trump would do better?

When all you want is for Trump to lose
"Is this a Trump supporter?"
- Anything other than a vote for Biden is a vote for Trump, including not voting
- Through inaction, yes.
  POASIWID

It's literally not a genocide. If Hamas gave up the hostages and their leaders who committed Oct 7th the war would end. That's how you know it's not a genocide. With facts and logic and stuff.

Yes I think I remember the 'it's not genocide when they've done something to deserve it' part of article II
- You didn't even respond to what I actually said. You just repeated some phrase you've probably used before. It's not a genocide because if the leadership gave up and they released their civilian hoststeges the war would be over. That's how you know its not a genocide. If it was a genocide it wouldn't matter if the leaders gave up or if they released the hoststeges.
There was genocide on Palestinians before Oct. 7th. Do you think a bunch of people randomly decided to attack Israel for fun?
- How can there be a genocide of the Palestinians if their population has been steadily increasing over the last 50 years? Wouldn't a real genocide result in a population decline?
If Hamas gave up the hostages
Israel Gaza: Hostages shot by IDF put out 'SOS' sign written with leftover food
The Israeli hostages - Yotam Haim, 28, Samer Talalka, 22, and Alon Shamriz, 26 - were killed in the Shejaiya neighbourhood of Gaza City on Friday as Israeli troops face stiff resistance.
According to an Israeli military official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, the men emerged shirtless from a building, with one carrying a stick with a white cloth.
One of the soldiers, the official added, felt threatened, as the men were at a distance of tens of metres, declared them "terrorists" and opened fire. Two were immediately killed while the third, wounded, returned to the building.
Any country that intentionally withholds food, medicine, and potable water to a population it considers problematic is a nation that is intentionally committing genocide.
That is a pretty good definition. It's also more stringent than the definition of the ICJ.
Congratulations on justifying genocide.
That is literally not how you determine genocide.