1y ago

Medical freedom vs. public health: Should fluoride be in our drinking water?

www.nbcnews.com

Misinformation campaigns increasingly target the cavity-fighting mineral, prompting communities to reverse mandates. Dentists are enraged. Parents are caught in the middle.

The culture wars have a new target: your teeth.

Communities across the U.S. are ending public water fluoridation programs, often spurred by groups that insist that people should decide whether they want the mineral — long proven to fight cavities — added to their water supplies.

The push to flush it from water systems seems to be increasingly fueled by pandemic-related mistrust of government oversteps and misleading claims, experts say, that fluoride is harmful.

“The anti-fluoridation movement gained steam with Covid,” said Dr. Meg Lochary, a pediatric dentist in Union County, North Carolina. “We’ve seen an increase of people who either don’t want fluoride or are skeptical about it.”

There should be no question about the dental benefits of fluoride, Lochary and other experts say. Major public health groups, including the American Dental Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, support the use of fluoridated water. All cite studies that show it reduces tooth decay by 25%.

US News @lemy.lol

TVgog56789 @lemy.lol

1y ago

Medical freedom vs. public health: Should fluoride be in our drinking water?

www.nbcnews.com /health/health-news/fluoride-safe-drinking-water-cities-ban-rcna143605

326 comments

"Medical freedom", the rallying cry for all kinds of grifters spreading disinformation and wanting to roll back the progress made in public health.
- And they don't seem to like the fact that they have the freedom to filter the fluoride back out of the water.
  
  ...what?
- medical freedom for me, but not for thee who want no more penis.
- 🥱
  Or, give people the option to choose for themselves.
  Scientific consensus has been wrong many times before, and it will be wrong many times again.
  
  You do have the option to choose for yourself.
  You can not only choose to filter it out, you can choose which filter you want to purchase from a selection. Here you go. https://apexwaterfilters.com/blogs/top-5-water-filters-to-remove-fluoride-from-water/
  
  I'm struggling with this.
  You're saying that because science was wrong about something else, it must be wrong about fluoride?
  I think that if you really dig into it, you'll find that arsenic use wasn't supported by science, but rather snake oil salesmen.
The thing that seriously hurts those anti-fluoridation nuts is that fluoride can naturally be in water supplies and there are water supplies with higher PPM fluoride amounts than municipalities that add them in the U.S., but there don't appear to be any increased health issues.
Not that such people generally care.
- As I said to a friend years ago: show me one case of fluoride poisoning....just one and I'll believe you that it's dangerous.
  He couldn't. End of discussion.
  
  Children can theoretically get fluorosis in their teeth if they chug mouthwash, but it’s a pretty uncommon thing to do.
  
  But... but... freedom!
  
  Found this through a quick internet search if you’re interested.
  https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199401133300203
- We evolved to get our nutrients from natural sources, some of those sources water … and we are filtering a lot of it out arbitrarily then being afraid to put it back.
  There was an argument made a while back that filtering the lithium out of our water is messing with folks too.
  
  So we took the lead out of the air and that made people less crazy, but we also took the lithium out of the water and that made people more crazy.
  Hooray us.
  
  Good luck getting the powers that be to start lithidating water.
- That's actually how we discovered that fluoride in public drinking water is good for your teeth. Colorado Springs had natural fluoride in their drinking water and their rate of cavities was way lower than the national average, so some dentists searched around to figure out the cause.
For once, the answer to a question posed in the headline is obviously yes.
- yeah. Im happily surprised the article itself was not about the conspiracy nonsense.
  
  It's still platforming the conspiracy though and bringing it to more people's attention.
They have their freedom, they are free to do whatever they want to filter their own drinking water. They're free to buy or produce distilled water for all their consumption. They're free to only ever drink beer. But the drinking water provided as a public good should be maintained for the good of the public, and when the studies are pretty clear that fluoridated water fights tooth decay, then fluoridated water it is.
- Hear hear! Or is it: here here! Or may I’ll stick with: preach, brother!
Hey, a article that bucks Betteridge's Law.
Of course there's no question, yes, and Republicans and communities should be ashamed at being this stupid to cater to such a dumb, ridiculous, and small group of idiots and are going to cost everyone more in dental insurance to socialize the cost of their stupidity.
I'm very much on the pro-flouride but it came up in a conversation with my coworker who won't drink tap water.
I said that in a country without universal healthcare, fluoride is free dental care. He said he agreed about the benefit to teeth but his concern was with what it might do to your body. He's a health nut but not a conspiracy theories and I was really thrown off and didn't have a counterpoint.
I just assumed it was fine because I knew fluoride is often found in water naturally...but...can someone with more knowledge tell me how they would have replied? I don't like speaking on things I can't back up with data so I just let it go
- If the stupid motherfucker brushes his teeth twice daily, he's already introducing loads more fluoride to his body than any of the trace amounts they add into the public water system, which is still standards of deviation less than anything that would introduce fluorosis of childrens' teeth (since that's not possible for adults with developed teeth), let alone get to a level of toxicity for an adult.
  Now, if he regularly consumes full tubes of toothpaste as a health supplement, then maybe that's a reason to be concerned about fluoride.
  
  All right settle down, he's not a stupid motherfucker. He isn't advocating to remove it from tap water, he was just saying why HE doesn't drink tap. He didn't try to pursuade me.
  Perhaps he's misguided on that but he is not the person you're probably picturing.
  My friend is a doctor and he also doesn't drink tap but for him it's the other contaminates, not flouride
  
  There is non fluoridated toothpaste. Not that I would use it but it does exist.
  
  Consider he might use unfluoridated toothpaste?
  Toxicity does exist and is studied: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5805681/
- I'm having thyroid problems, and in trying to research iodine, I have found that fluoride can have a negative impact on thyroid function. This link is the best I can do on the subject, given that I'm not sure how to find much trustworthy information. It says that as long as iodine intake is sufficient, the fluoride shouldn't be a problem. But I'm finding conflicting info on what constitutes sufficient iodine intake.
  
  If you consume any iodized salt you should be good on that, unless you have a medical condition that prevents your body from absorbing it properly. In fact people don't really get goiters anymore since the introduction of iodized salt which was done to prevent said goiters(a goiter is a swollen thyroid from lack of iodine intake iirc).
  
  Interesting, thanks for the link! I figured there had to be something to it because he's a really smart guy and not in any way conspiratorial. His teeth are also in great shape so his way of living doesn't appear to be hurting anyone.
  For the record, he was not preaching. I was just filling up from the kitchen sink while he used the filtered water thingy so it came up. He was talking only about himself when he expressed his concern
  
  ah sick, as someone with vitiligo, this is yet another thing i should put on the extremely metaphorical back burner here.
  (the partial joke here is that people with vitiligo have increased chances of having thyroidal issues due to the immune system or whatever the fuck, health is fun.)
- Mercury is naturally occurring in water as well. That's not really a guide to go by.
- idk probably maybe tell him to never put anything into his mouth that isn't IMMEDIATELY sterilized, before, during and after the process of entering your mouth for fear of possible contaminants getting into your body.
  
  I know you're being sarcastic but I at least appreciate that you actually answered my question unlike the other replies.
So we've circled back to to water/fluoride water conspiracies again?
History, doomed to repeat, before our very eyes once more..
- Can always rely on the classics to stir up the rubes. A new sucker born every minute.
All cite studies that show it reduces tooth decay by 25%
But because of my sugar intake, my teeth are shit anyway
/s
Put the lithium in already.
- Fuck it, put in arsenic
  
  heavy metal riff
  
  Ah. The benefits of being a boron based lifeform.
I absolutely can't stand minty or cinnamon toothpaste, and have really struggled with brushing my teeth because of it. It drives me absolutely insane that so many of the flavors I can tolerate are only available in fluoride free formulations and/or get discontinued.
- I have issues with brushing too. I have a nerve disorder in my face which makes brushing my teeth extremely painful, so I can't do it all that often. I definitely benefit from fluoridated drinking water.
  
  Ouch, that must really suck! I'm not dealing with actual physical pain here, just hate the minty fresh feeling in my mouth. Does mouthwash cause pain for you? I've never really used it, but briefly wondered if I could use a fluoride free toothpaste plus a fluoridated mouthwash, but I think I ran into the same issue with limited fluoridated flavors.
- Crest two in one shield is strawberry flavor with fluoride. Source: I have a teen with the same aversion. It doesn’t have animals or anything on it, but it is a “kids” toothpaste. You’d never know without reading it though, so I thought I’d mention it. Sorry if you’ve already heard of that one.
  
  I haven't tried it, but will keep it in mind. I'm currently using the Hello brand toothpastes. They seem to be a little less sweet than most other kids toothpastes, which is a big plus for me. I like their bubblegum and orange flavors best, and the blue raspberry isn't bad either. They have some other flavors without fluoride, so you have to pay attention though.
- I love cinnamon, it's so hard to find anymore, in contrast to your hatred, I wish they made more of it, but I also believe that they should be open to more flavors that aren't just oriented toward children.
  
  Huh. I see quite a few cinnamon options online, but I wouldn't be surprised that it's harder to find in physical stores. They really seem to be cutting back on options everywhere lately. I found a brand that I like, so I just order a few tubes at a time from their website.
- Aquafresh Extreme or whatever has a citrusy taste with a hint of mint. I love it, but my fiance hates it. It's called Mint Blast, but it's so minty that it doesn't taste minty to me.
  You might like it, or you might hate it with the fire of a thousand suns.
  
  OMG, both "extreme" and "blast" in combination with the word "mint" make me feel very strongly that I'll hate it! Haha. That whole "icy fresh" breath thing is so uncomfortable to me. When I'm done brushing my teeth, I just want my mouth to feel neutral.
- I read your comment earlier today and then by chance was going to reorder toothpaste tonight, and I realized the kind of toothpaste I recently fell in love with has a citrus and a grape flavor, so I hunted down your comment to share with you!
  The toothpaste has both fluoride and hydroxyapatite, which helps rebuild enamel. Ever since I started using hydroxyapatite, my teeth have that “fresh from the dentist clean” feeling every time I brush them. I was using a Japanese brand of toothpaste for a few years because that’s the only place I found that kind of toothpaste, but it was fluoride free. Just one tube ago I found a brand that has both!
  The brand is Carifree, and this is the one I use.
  Looks like they also have citrus and grape mouthwash!
  
  And I thought I was crazy when I paid $10 for a 6oz tube! Hahah. I do need a new dentist though, so I might just try one of the dentists near me that carries their stuff so I can grab a tube.
Here in Germany, drinking water isn't fluoridated but fluoridated salt is sold at every grocery store. I assume that fluoridated salt isn't as easily available to those in the US who could now end up without fluoridated water, is it?
- I have never seen fluoridated salt in the U.S. Our salt usually has iodine in it to make up for the iodine deficiency that was in American diets before that happened.
  
  We've got both iodine and fluoride in our salt in Germany.
We should not be encouraging the least among us.
- And yet the least among us is now the Republican candidate for president.
  
  Again.
  
  I'm running for president?
Yes. The answer is yes.
Ask the experts. You'll find their names have "D.D.S" after them.
Do what they say.
- Dentists are not scientists though. They suffer from a limited data set and all the other cognitive problems that we invented science to counteract.
  Having said that, scientists should not make policy, but inform public health experts, who understand that science does not tell you what to do, but just the best current view of reality. These experts have to take into account cost/benefit ratios as well as science from a wide set of fields.
  Luckily for fluoride in the water, they all agree!
  
  Dentists are not scientists though.
  Ok fine ask the nice lady in the lab coat on those Colgate commercials instead.
The only thing "bad" about flouride I know that is true is that it can lower DHT levels in your blood. I put bad in quotes because I don't know what DHT actually does, but the conspiracy I've heard is that DHT is needed to dream and imagine, so by drinking fluoridated water you're destroying your own creativity or whatever.
I always thought it was funny.
- A friend of mine who believed a lot of conspiracy theories told me it was bad because it calcifies your pineal gland. I called bullshit and googled it.
  Turns out, it actually does. There was no proof at the time that this causes any sort of issues, but there it was. I was unhappy that they were actually right about something; I didn’t want to give them the idea that any of their other crazy ideas had any validity.
  
  lol
  Like telling chemtrail believers about crop dusters.
  
  Pretty sure the pineal gland can just calcify with age, it’s not something to be worried about.
- Well, DHT can cause hair loss in people that are sensitive to it. But it's also an essential androgen for men. Overall, you probably don't want to decrease the natural levels in men, but lots of different, entirely normal things can cause fluctuations in hormonal levels, so it's likely not a large concern.
- Yeah that’s #1 bullshit. DHT is a sex steroid and hormone that defines the male genitalia during the embryonic development. It builds out the entire male reproductive system right down to pubic hair.
  Steroids always affect testosterone and that mostly affects men because they carry substantially more. So that’s sort of a clue in what area they target.
  Creativity and “intelligence” are entirely abstract, human concepts. There is no one mechanism that governs them let alone a single hormone for that matter.
  Also, just want to point out that our ancestors had literally perfect teeth. Perfect. Crooked and fucked up teeth is a modern infliction (no one really knows why). So just sayin.
  
  Also, just want to point out that our ancestors had literally perfect teeth. Perfect. Crooked and fucked up teeth is a modern infliction
  I would adore to see your sources on this
Hey, I'm relevant!
- You're blowin up!
Man, are these conspiracy nuts gonna be mad when they accidently ban us removing fluoride from water with dangerous concentrations. The amount of fluoride we shoot for would require a 155 lb person to drink around 5000 gallons.
It's not freedom if it contradicts science and goes against healthcare for the public.
- ...That's a dangerous position to take.
  How many times do you think there have been positions that were generally accepted as being correct that were later found to be wrong? Things that we had evidence at the time that demonstrated they were a net positive, that later ended up being deeply flawed or outright incorrect?
  Your version of 'freedom' would also say that no person has freedom of religion, both because it contradicts science, and because religion can cause real harms to both physical and mental health.
  
  I have not made any statement about a general definition of freedom. My position was solely focused on the uneducated instrumentalization of the concept of freedom with regard to the scientifically recognized use of fluoride to improve the dental health of the population.
  
  As we've seen in the last few years, you can find experts to say whatever you need. That'll have a longer lasting effect on the public's psyche than anything.
  
  You do not have the freedom to make my life worse. Period.
- By that logic there should be mandated exercise
  
  Me not exercising doesn't make you fat.
  
  We have mandated exercise in schools. It's good for people.
yes but we should do more studies on non-dental effects of water fluoridation.
- Well, we have both location gated and time gated populations, so observational study should be fairly trivial.
- There's been studies about the negative effects it has on thyroid function for people with hypothyroidism : https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5805681/
  
  Thanks, I've only read about mostly bone disorders but it makes sense that fluoride might interfere with other halogens in the body.
  I'd like to see people make decisions on cost benefit analysis based on medical research. Dental caries can lead to tooth infections which have a number of severe health consequences but it doesn't mean there aren't smaller concerns about fluoridation that should also be taken into account.
Apparently the Netherlands stopped adding fluoride to the drinking water decades ago (due to idiots). It is in toothpaste. Which then gets into the sewer which then gets into the drinking water.
Dutch article: https://www.drinkwaterplatform.nl/fluoride-in-drinkwater-alle-vragen-en-antwoorden/
I'm glad people are finally taking a stand against Big Dental conglomerates. Wake up, people! Take charge of your own teeth!!
Edit: Sigh. I think I'll just add "/s" to my username.
- I was pretty sure it was a joke, but you can never tell when it comes to these sort of crazies.
- So what it the disadvantage of fluride in the water? Please tell me.
  
  I thought it'd be obvious that it was sarcasm given how preposterous my comment was. Come on..."Big Dental!" LOL
  
  Well, the fluoride calcifies in your pineal gland. It shows up on brain scans and if it is not centered can help indicate or diagnose brain tumors. Some also say that the calcification closes your third eye and prevents you from communing with the ether.
  
  Fluoride is a neurotoxin, easy info to look up (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7230026/). Even if this is unproven, should we be putting drugs in the water where there are questions about how it affects brain development? If lead was good for our teeth, would that justify adding lead to our water?
  Drugging a population through tap water is a terrible way to dispense drugs. If you disagree, do you mind if I put LSD in your water? It's been shown to have positive effects on mental health. How about lithium, should be add that too? Lithium is naturally found in some water also and also has been show to have positive mental effect in those areas, same story that got us to put fluoride in our water.
  Our tap water effects so much more than our teeth, ignoring all other effects because it reduces tooth decay is plain dumb.
  Fluoride is a mineral and builds up. Decades of fluoridated tap water used in gardens and our environment mean ever increasing toxin in our environment. It's bad for plants (also easy to look up) and it's effects on animals, birds, etc is unknown. Is it ok to gamble the well-being of other species when the tooth decay problem can be solved in ways without added risk?
  The fluoride added to tap water is not of pharmaceutical quality, it's a waste product of fertilizer or nuclear material industries.
- Get the fuck back up in my mouth, teeth!
  They're not listening! What do I do??
- Poe’s law has only gotten more true over the last couple of decades.
- thats brilliant really. I should highly consider that myself. although in this case it would not apply. I mean its often but still likely under 50% of my posts. mmmmmmm.
What is the big freakout about fluoride water lately? Haven't we been doing that for decades?
- It's the newest fad in medical conspiracy theory panic.
  
  it's old as fuck as well. they hate the idea of recycling but love to recycle bullshit.
Just let the fuckers teeth fall out already. I am tired of so much effort being spent on people who clearly want to die. It is everything, from seatbelts to motorcycle helmets to vaccines to transfats to HFC drinks. They want to die? Let them. Maybe darwinism will save us from them maybe it won't but at least we can all stop hearing about it.
- Hi, I'm shit at brushing my teeth long enough/regularly enough. I am glad fluride is in the water.
  Hi I'm someone who has concerns about animal testing and is sensitive to SLS causing mouth ulcers/generally ruining taste for a while, unfortunately hippy toothpaste often lacks fluride for insane reasons. I am glad fluride is in the water.
  Hi I'm a kid with horrible parents that neglect my dental care. I am glad fluride is in the water.
  "Just let people hurt themselves" is never that easy.
  
  There are fluoride rinses you can buy for fairly cheap
  
  We let people raise kids with religion
- A slicht problem with this approach is that for vaccines to be effective for anyone almost everybody has to be vaccinated…
  
  Over enough time the only remaining people will be the vaccinated.
- I'm pretty sure people criticized Republicans when they cheered on the whole "let them die" thing...
i'm still just curious whether that "science" saying that "fluoride bad" is real or not.
Or if fluoride is actually just bad.
Until then i'm not doing anything because politics is probably going to kill me first anyway. No point in making a decision if you aren't familiar with it i suppose.
- My understanding is that there's no evidence to support the idea that it's bad for you in this application at these concentrations.
  There is evidence to support it being effective at reducing the risk of cavities.
  
  that was also my understanding as well. So far i've had little reason to believe anything else.
  Although i will say, hexafluroidated uranium is a some fucked up stuff. That's mostly because it's a fluoride base though. Fluoride can fuck your shit up apparently.
- A little bit will help your teeth, but too much fluoride will kill you. That is true.
  But, the levels of fluoride they are talking about are so low that you'd probably die from drinking too much water before the fluoride got you.
  
  Does fluoride bioaccumulate?
  
  checks out, given that's true for everything.
I can no longer sit back and allow Communist infiltration, Communist indoctrination, Communist subversion and the international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.
- Mandrake, do you recall what Clemenceau once said about satire?
I’d say that this is the kind of thing we elect leaders to decide and implement for us, but my leaders are a bunch of fucking morons.
- The people who elect them are morons.
I’m pretty sure the dentists love this.
- I'm pretty sure if dentists are advocating for something that would make them less money in the long run, that whatever they're advocating for is a good idea.
Flouride my drinking water all day long baby!
Yes
- That doesn't sound right. Is everyone in Sweden drinking untreated water? That sounds incredibly unsanitary.
  
  What do you mean by untreated? Unchlorinated? In Europe, many countries also chlorinate their water, like the US. But not all do, because some have naturally clean water. Like the Netherlands, Scandinavia, Iceland.
Medical freedom? Can't people use bottled or just move to a town with naturally high fluoride?
- They're talking about the freedom of morons to not drink fluoride.
  
  OK use bottled water or move to a city that doesn't need to add it
General Ripper has entered the chat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J67wKhddWu4
I tried fluoride-free toothpaste for one year during college. Came home for the summer with 12 cavities.
Fluoride works people.
Hey how come the government gets to put water in my pipes at all? There my pipes! True freedom is them being completely empty.
it SHOULD be up to the individual whether they want fluoride in the water they're drinking. this is not like vaccines, where unvaccinated people are a risk to everyone around them.
edit: adding this https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/magazine/magazine_article/fluoridated-drinking-water/
and key takeaway: The Cochrane report also concluded that early scientific investigations on water fluoridation (most were conducted before 1975) were deeply flawed. “We had concerns about the methods used, or the reporting of the results, in … 97 percent of the studies,” the authors noted. One problem: The early studies didn’t take into account the subsequent widespread use of fluoride-containing toothpastes and other dental fluoride supplements, which also prevent cavities. This may explain why countries that do not fluoridate their water have also seen big drops in cavity rates (see chart).
- I think a criticism of not fluoridating the water and only buying supplements is its going to favor wealthy people on average and amounts to essentially class warfare.
  Imo it makes more sense to fluoridate the water and let rich people buy expensive filters to satisfy their feelings about fluoride. (I'd argue water filter peddlers maybe oversell the dangers of fluoridated water)
- That's an argument for why it might not be as useful as we thought. It is not an argument for why it is harmful or negative or shouldn't be used. If it does no harm, then let the people who are afraid of it for no reason to filter it out.
- Best comment in the whole thread
https://www.mdpi.com/2076-3417/10/8/2885
I am once again saying: Why not hydroxyapitite? A form of calcium, same as our teeth/bones. It even has water management uses because it adsorbs other stuff like fluoride and lead, which actually makes finding info about its addition to water for the purpose of teeth health difficult.
Though it seems like hydroxyapatite water would also make fluoride toothpaste even more effective.
The mineral ions introduced during remineralisation restore the structure of the hydroxyapatite crystals. If fluoride ions are present during the remineralisation, through water fluoridation or the use of fluoride-containing toothpaste, the stronger and more acid-resistant fluorapatite crystals are formed instead of the hydroxyapatite crystals.
- You can't add hydroxyapatite to water because it's not water soluble
  
  Couldn't hard water be described an issue of natural minerals being "not water soluble"? It's still going to be floating in the water, and I assume that hard water is a problem of excess and thus could be managed better. Maybe even the nano form, assuming that passes the safety checks (and guidelines for safe/effective concentrations can be established).
- Dayyyyyyyymmmm
I'm sure this has already been asked. I'm too lazy to read all comments. Um, why would the dentists be mad? Are they not all in it for the money?
- I had a hard time making a sensible analogy so instead here is a photograph:
  Sometimes, you really don't need more customers.
  
  I'm sorry to change topics, but is that place called Creamalot?
- No, they're not.
- Believe it or not, people will still have dental problems even if they all brushed and flossed three times a day.
I'm a sane libertarian (I promise some of us do exisit). People absolutely have a right to determine what goes in to their body, but fluoride is such a weird hill to die on. In particular when fortified grains are a mandate of the same ilk. All of this has a history, and shocker, it was always steeped in the same "but our culture" wrapping...
Edit: tl;Dr if you don't want to watch the video: and pellagra was proven to be one of those diseases that is zero problem... So long as your diet doesn't suck. The science had push back because it upset the economics. We're fighting the same battles now we were then.
Edit2: yes. I'm a libertarian, because as much as they're freaking nuts it still stems from a disagreement of a stated principle. A principle which had them back a ton of LGBTQ rights before anyone else. I'm voting Biden in 2024, strictly because I'd like to vote in 2028, but godamn this is how 2016 happened.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=reYKBgdrZsM&pp=ygUWUGVsbGFncmEgZXh0cmEgaGlzdG90eQ%3D%3D
- Yeah, it seems like complaining about government provided WiFi.
  "What if I don't WANT my kids on the internet dangit!?"
  
  Lol, a bit late but a certain degree yes. Like as a libertarian Ill never be able to square taking money from someone's paycheck in NYC for subsidizing internet in Montana.
  But... No one actually cares about that... Eve libertarians, because it's peanuts next to a shitty new f-30whatever that will ever fly.
  It's by no mean perfect, and has been massively corrupted by whatever the hell we have going on right now in the US. But the principle of "if it doesn't affect anyone, stop talking to me" is a good one, and at least it's a stated one.
  So yeah, I do kinda think people should have the right NOT to make cakes for gay weddings. Sure. Do I care when they're forced to? Ehhhhh. You were going to be out of business soon because you're a godamn asshole sooooo not really no I don't care lol.
  So no, the gov should subsidize wifi, but they also already subsidize all sorts of shit, so youre damn right you have to service those folks. I guess that's the thing, libertarianism neccesaties egalitarianism, and nothing else does.
This comes up in Portland periodically as we are one of the few places that DOESN'T fluoridate water.
When you do the research on it, you find some fascinating things:
Applying fluoride topically through toothpaste or mouthwash unequivocably works wonders for tooth decay.
There is no evidence drinking it as part of the water supply does ANYTHING. Positive or negative.
You have to understand one big thing... The first municipality to add fluoride to water did so in 1945.
The first fluoridated toothpaste wouldn't hit the market until 1955, 10 years later (thanks Crest!)
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/second-thoughts-on-fluoride/
So when you look at studies trying to determine if drinking water as a source is effective, you need to immediately ignore any study done before the introduction of fluoridated toothpaste and mouthwash.
- ....people didn't just... stop researching fluoride after the 40s/50s. Newer studies have found less of a dramatic benefit, likely because brushing with fluoridated toothpaste is more common, but there is still a significant benefit. The countries that reduced water fluoridation and saw little to no change have universal free dental care for children.
  A lot of the pushback relies on pointing out that there are diminishing returns. Multiple sources of fluoride don't seem to have compounding benefits. But that completely ignores that the goal is to raise the baseline.
  Not all kids are good at brushing their teeth, not all parents care or know to put it as a priority if they're struggling. It's not going to impact virtually anyone above the poverty line, but for the people who need it most it absolutely helps.
  Fluoridating water is ridiculously cheap way to add a layer of safety. A ~15-25% reduction in cavities is absolutely worth pursuing.
Ok so seems clear to me there's no real harm, but is there alleged benefit for adults? I've never had to rely on a municipal well so as a kid I had fluoride treatments and used fluoridated paste, but always thought it was just for kids. Is there benefit for me as a 40yo (with no cavities if it matters)?
- Fluoride in water is the reason you have no cavities and will continue to have few to no cavities. Centuries ago you'd be lucky to have your teeth, the toothpaste definitely helps but the fluoride in water probably has a bigger impact on society overall
  
  Sorry, you misunderstand. I don't rely on a municipal well, and adding fluoride to private wells isn't a thing AFAIK.
  That's why as a child I had fluoride treatments. It would have been easier to just get it in the water, but tradeoffs. My kids get them too.
  I was wondering about the fluoride treatments being child only or whether there were adult benefits.
I've heard fluoride builds up in your bones so it's one of those negative health effects that's hard to study. But even if fluoride is safe I think it's effect is way oversold by pro fluoride people.
The dental health in the US is absolutely atrocious with fluoride in the water and it's primarily due to a lack of healthcare coverage.
It's pretty clear to me that pro fluoride advocates are hypocrites more interested in imposing their authority on people and collecting moral and political authority then doing anything that would substantially help people suffering from poor dental health.
- I’ve heard fluoride builds up in your bones so it’s one of those negative health effects that’s hard to study
  I mentioned it in a top-level comment, but there is hydroxyapatite that would likely be a better water additive (and increases effectiveness of fluoride toothpaste) and would probably also be good for bone health rather than a potential long-term risk.
- The Authority: We're putting flouride in your water. And if you don't like it, then you can go to Helen up in the accomodations department and she'll get you set up with some filtering options for your home.
I thought it's used instead of chlorine to decontaminate water
- Water is disinfected with either chlorine, chloramine (ammonia + chlorine), ozone, or UV light. In North America chlorine is almost universal because it provides disinfection residual, which keeps water safe while it is travelling from the treatment plant to the consumer. Fluoride is added solely as a supplement to improve dental health.
  
  Yeah, looks like I mixed fluoride with ozone
No, but not for any health reasons, it just tastes like shit lol
I thought fluoride in water was a bad idea because it can cause dental fluorosis when the teeth are still growing. Dental fluorosis is a condition that causes permanent stains on teeth and even make the enamel weak.
- There's not enough fluorine in the water for that.
  If you used fluoride mouth rinse regularly in addition to having fluoridated water and using fluoride toothpaste, then yes, you could end up with fluorosis because that's too much, but that's something you have to do intentionally.
  
  I have heard that stanis flouride causes this but not sodium floride.
All I can say is, drinking fluoridated water isn't going to make a significant impact on your dental health if you don't brush and use mouthwash.
You'll never go to the dentist and have him say "you need to drink more fluoridated water."
- No offense but if that's all you can say, why say it at all? It's very Tucker-esque to bring up something that sounds relevant but isn't
  
  Dentists generally don't tell me to avoid sugar anymore. Because they know I know.
  
  🥱
  Right back atchya.
- Except the article, that you are currently commenting on, indicates the exact opposite. Flouridated water decreases the chances of cavities as noted by communities studied, some without flouridated water and others with it.
- LMAO all your sources are YouTube videos but you're trying to act like you're making a serious science backed argument!!
  "I'm not one of the crazies guys, sure I'm arguing for the same stuff, but I watched the REAL research videos, you have to believe me"
  
  If you had bothered to watch the videos, you'd have noticed that they cite and link the primary source research studies they refer to. The position they take is also rather nuanced - not "fluoride bad" but "There is not insignificant but not overwhelming evidence that fluoride intake should be reduced during pregnancy"
- Lololol you actually linked YouTube videos

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