Republicans are pulling out all the stops to reverse EV adoption
Republicans are pulling out all the stops to reverse EV adoption
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Republicans are pulling out all the stops to reverse EV adoption
322 comments
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Jesus, what a stupid fucking hill to die on. Republicans never cease to amaze and appall.
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If only they actually would die on that hill. They won't, because they've conditioned their base to support them no matter what. Instead, they'll rot the hill and move on to the next once the one they're on can't be salvaged.
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Yeah, I don't get it. I understand wanting to reduce or eliminate subsidies (they're just a cash handout to dealers and manufacturers imo), but there's no logical reason to be against EVs.
Here's my proposal: allow tax credits for private sales. Perhaps add some requirements to certify that the seller owned the car more than a year or something to qualify to prevent flipping.
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they're just a cash handout to dealers and manufacturers imo
The US government subsidized $750B for the oil industry in 2022. The EV tax credit amount to peanuts compared to that. If you want a green energy and green transportation industry in the US, subsidies are absolutely necessary.
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Their oil interest overlords are giving them their marching orders; it has nothing to do with logic (as usual) and everything to do with greed.
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Don't forget that subsidies also swing in the other direction to fossil fuels companies. If we want to eliminate subsidies, then why not for both players so the playing field is even again? Otherwise, giving EVs subsidies might actually level the playing field more than not.
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but there’s no logical reason to be against EVs.
There is, if you get paid by the Koch mafia.
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There's actually a really good logical reason to be against EV cars: they're cars.
That said, there's no good reason to be opposed to them in favor of ICE cars
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There’s already a solid market for used cars, unless you mean EVs, so no use for an incentive there.
The point of an incentive is a temporary tool to accelerate the transition to less polluting technology. While EVs are new they naturally are more expensive, there’s temptation to import from cheaper countries, but the incentive makes them less expensive to buy, plus incents growth of local industry. I’d also vote to phase out the incentive after that transition has happened: fossil fuel incentives should have been gone half a century ago.
If you’re specifically talking the used EV market, the most important factor is time. The more new EVs there are, the better the used EV market will be in a few years. It doesn’t help to try to increase sales of used EVs when there are so few. If you are looking used, please be patient: let’s do what we can to accelerate the growth of new EVs, and one of the benefits will be a strong used market in a gpfew years
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Here is my reasonable argument against EVs. EVs only really solve the emissions part of the equation. They dont solve the massive amounts of paved surface, private ownership of thousands of pounds of steel and plastic, they still use massive amounts of energy to move that steel and plastic and building cities for cars is largely ineffecient and expensive to maintain.
We could do a lot more for the environment than EVs. Id rather see their subsidies go to things like electrified transit, cycling infrastructure or walkability improvements.
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There is a logical reason to be against forced adoption before the technology matures. For a lot of the country they are not a viable replacement for ICE yet. They’re improving, but not as fast as ICEs are being phased out and that leaves a lot of places where a dwindling used market will be the only option for many people.
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Are we in a "free market" or we not? The answer is "depends on what lobbyists want."
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Free market goes to the highest bidder.
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Free for me and not for thee.
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Might as well be the offical preamble of the Constitution (or at least the more conventional "rules for thee, not for me").
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Lol without all the subsidies gas would be $12/gallon. And burning fossil fuels (40% is automotive) kills more than 250,000 Americans per year. Whats the cost of a human life brah?
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I think they're more commenting on how the supposedly "free market" champions constantly interfere with the market when it suits their agenda
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Whats the cost of a human life brah?
That depends on if grandma is being evaluated by an Obama Death Panel (life is precious and invaluable) or by the stock market in 2020 (she has, what, a couple years left anyway, let her die).
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Yes, that's the point. These politicians interfere and meddle and cry "free market" when it is convenient for them.
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Exactly I am not getting all this subsidy unfairness nonsense that stops Chinese firms from selling cars here. The only difference I'm seeing is that we're subsidizing cars on the back end through oil subsidies, and they are subsidizing cars on the front end with production subsidies.
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Free market involves pluralism of systems and distribution of power as important preconditions. Lobbyism requires monoculture of systems and power being sufficiently centralized to be controllable.
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To play devil's advocate for a moment, is it really a free market if we are incentivizing one technology over another?
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When the oil industry doesn't have to pay to clean up their externalities we already don't have a free market. You break it you pay. Fixing the externalities by incentivizing better technology is at minimum a correction to the market.
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That argument can be made about the tax incentives.
However, regulations about emissions are intrinsically something we want, and we shouldn't hold back on that just because gas cars can't get to the level of emissions we need.
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It’s too late. We’ve already hit the tipping point. Many of my neighbors have EVs now. They’re everywhere in my city and I’m not in a major city. They’re just plain better cars and now people know it. It’s too late.
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Never underestimate the Republican ability to turn things into a culture war. My very conservative neighbor has an F-150 Lightning that his work provides him. When he first got it, he loved it and drove it everywhere. He truly seemed to believe that EVs were a better way to drive.
Then a few months ago he started making comments from the Fox News bubble. Things like, "the power grid just can't support all these EVS" and "these EVs are so heavy that they're destroying our roads" (note he has one child, and he bought his wife a 5,800 lb Yukon, so don't tell me he honestly cares about vehicle weight).
Recently he bought a new ICE vehicle (a Bronco). I truly believe that he was this close to accepting that EVs have many advantages over ICE vehicles, but then he consumed enough right wing news to prevent him from making the switch long term.
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Conservative brain rot. Seen it many times.
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We need to do some reverse psychology to remedy this
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EV weight is a legitimate concern both in terms of road and tire wear. However, this is a problem more generally given the current market trend towards driving a siege tower around to go grab some groceries.
If he cared about the grid he'd put solar panels up.
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Many decades ago, the US decimated parts of cities and a lot of railway infrastructure to make way for cars. It’s never too late to ruin something
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Abortions were pretty popular for awhile too but the GOP still uh finds a way. Never underestimate the power of angry idiots in large numbers. Have you seen who is a serious contender for the presidency this year?
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Congratulations, Elon. This is who you hitched your ugly Cybertruck wagon to.
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All that we want to do is see to it that we live another 100 years is that so god damn polarizing?!?!
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But what if global warming is a hoax and we improve things for no reason?! /s
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What if we do all this and all we got was more sustainable ways of living where depended less on complex geopolitical agreements with dictators? That would suck right /s
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It’s all about the Petrodollar and America retaining the worlds reserve currency
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Petrodollar shit is all old Soviet Cold war propaganda. It actually makes very little sense. Moreover, having the world's reserve currency is not really the benefit people make it out to be. The dollar is powerful because the scale of the US economy is enormous, and the US has a lot of friends. But like, the Euro or GBP doesn't suffer because random third countries don't settle trades with it. And the reason why eg, China's currency is shit in comparison is because it's overtly manipulated and China's autocratic instincts scare people away from using Chinese bonds as an inflation resistant cash proxy. The same exact things were true with the USSR, which is why they needed to push conspiracies about the omnipotence of the dollar.
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I thought so too, but it doesn't even make sense, because the only one they're hurting this way is themselves.
If they don't adopt EVs, it will be to their disadvantage in the long run.
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Straightup
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This is why I can't be friends with conservatives of any degree. People always want to say "it's just politics," but it has gone beyond that for so fucking long that it's not even a discussion I'm willing to have anymore.
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Agreed. Conservatives bring politics into every aspect of their life. You can't have more than a few moments without them making some culture war comment.
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And they expect you to hold their beliefs or stay silent. If you express a contrary opinion, you are the one bringing politics into the discussion. It's like playing chess with a pigeon.
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And by doing so, they force the rest of us to bring politics everywhere, or risk having everything that cooperative society has worked for undone. It's really tiring to have the be eternally vigilant for bullshit that shouldn't even be seriously considered.
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Politics were and have always been personal.
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In a statement, Kentucky Attorney General Russell Coleman accused President Biden of being “willing to sacrifice the American auto industry and its workers in service of its radical green agenda.”
If you look up the 10 most "Made in America" cars, the top 4 slots by a huge margin are Tesla Model 3,Y,S,X , which are all EVs, and they are at near 100% (or 100% for some models). There isn't another American car brand on the list. So when Coleman is talking about sacrificing American auto workers, who's he talking about? A car that is 40% American because all the parts are made in China or Mexico and there's some final assembly done in the USA?
P.S. Musk is an idiot, though I'm not sure that needs to be said anymore as its so obvious.
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the top 4 slots by a huge margin are Tesla Model 3,Y,S,X
Is that true? I saw recently that 95% of Tesla's cars are the Model Y. I assume a huge chunk of the remaining 5% is the Model 3, leaving very few Model S and X cars on the road. I'd be very surprised to hear that either one of them is in the top 4 best selling American made cars.
Edit: Just looked up this article of best selling cars in 2024, which includes non-American made cars.
Removing those, it looks like it's:
- Ford F-Series: 152,943 units sold
- Chevrolet Silverado: 127,563 units sold
- Tesla Model Y: 109,000 units sold
- Ram Pickup: 89,417 units sold
- GMC Sierra: 68,597 units sold
- Ford Explorer: 58,465 units sold
- Jeep Grand Cherokee: 54,455 units sold
- Chevrolet Equinox: 54,185 units sold
- Tesla Model 3: 42,000 units sold (Looks like my 95% number was way off)
- Ford Transit: 39,890 units sold
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What’s the plan if we run out of oil? I mean seriously, it’s gonna happen eventually. Even if you want to ignore the science on climate change, you can’t ignore basic laws of the universe that oil is a finite resource. If we don’t have a plan for when it runs out, there will be utter chaos.
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There's not going to be a moment when the world suddenly goes from having oil to having no oil. Some oil reserves are relatively cheap and easy to extract. Other, very large reserves are currently so difficult and expensive to extract that doing so isn't profitable. As the easy oil gradually runs out, the supply drops, the price rises, and sources of oil that were not profitable at the old price become profitable. This maintains the supply of oil and stabilizes the price.
Eventually oil will become so expensive that alternative technologies will be cheaper than it. This will happen with plenty of hard-to-reach oil left. So it's true that the amount of oil is in principle finite, but that limitation isn't really relevant.
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Eventually oil will become so expensive that alternative technologies will be cheaper than it.
We’re already there. If you remove the subsidies for oil and tariffs for Chinese EVs, driving a EV would be the cheapest solution.
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So prices will go up until you and me will get around with rickshaw. Whoever is poorer pulls the other. And while we bump forth; we wont have to worry about continued plastic pollution. Our rickshaw is made of metal and wood.
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Carbon prices and other incentives and disincentives can help accelerate this, and renewable tech and green(er) manufacturing will play into this too. I suspect (and hope) the decline in oil usage will happen well before we run low on it.
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you can’t ignore basic laws of the universe that oil is a finite resource
TLDR - oil might be a finite resource but gasoline is not oil and it can be renewable. But it's also a rapidly shrinking market.
The stuff can literally be grown on trees. It's cheaper to pump it out of the ground, but it's actually not much cheaper. Fuel from plants, which we farm in bulk for human consumption, can absolutely be used to create gasoline. It's also net-zero — because the plant takes carbon out of the atmosphere to create the oil and then it's simply returned to the atmosphere when your burn it.
Most gasoline in the USA contains at least 10% biofuel, and some is up to 85%. The latter requires an engine tuned to run on it, however it's possible (and is an area of active research) if you're willing to spend a bit more money to manufacture 100% pure biofuel that can run on unmodified engines. Porsche in particular has started selling a biofuel that is specifically designed to run on classic cars that were manufactured decades ago. They plan to produce something like a million gallons a month of the stuff, and it will work in basically any car. And if you have a classic car (designed for gasoline that contained lead) then it will work better than the fossil fuel you can buy at a gas station
The thing is though, battery powered vehicles are way cheaper than doing any of that. And if you really need a fuel based approach (e.g. batteries are just too heavy for large aircraft), then Hydrogen is a better option than any biofuel.
So - while gasoline can technically be environmentally friendly and is a usable source of energy for the foreseeable future, in reality it's destined to follow horse drawn carriages and steam engines, a technology some people only use for their own personally enjoyment or to preserve our history.
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Growing crops to make ethanol is not particulatly green. In fact, in most existing production loops we would be better off environmentally to just burn pure gasoline than produce the ethanol to mix into it, unfortunately. Too much water, too many tractors and trucks, and way too much electricity into ethanol production to be worth what we get out of it. And the bit of carbon the crops sequester doesn't overcome it. Electric vehicles are by far the greenest option right now.
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Burning any carbohydrates in inefficient piston engines is never going to be environmentally friendly, though.
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We will move on. As it turns out there are billions if not trillions of dollars in that industry.
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If we keep burning oil then our civilization won't have to worry about it at all, whatever's left will be for Immortan Joe
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Synthetic. It has profit margin and purpose. Nothing we can’t fix without adding more bad things to the air…
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Die. We will die. The only crutch that props up our massive jump from 1 billion pre industrialized society to our current 8 billion human beings on this planet, has been cheap and plentiful fossil fuel. Notably, it is the only thing that has allowed us to practice agriculture on a scale that supports our population growth. When it’s gone, there is nothing to replace it, short of a miracle fusion revolution.
The average carbon cost to produce an electric vehicle is about 6 tons on average, not including the battery, about the same as an ICE vehicle. Where does the energy for auto manufacturing come from? Primarily coal and natural gas, with a sliver of insubstantial wind and nuclear power. About 7 barrels of oil go into each and every tire on the road (between expended energy and actual petroleum products in the tire). Charging the battery? Coal, natural gas, and the same trickle of alternative sources mentioned above.
Speaking of those alternative energy sources, what do we use to make them? Building a nuclear power plant is likely the most carbon intensive process ever devised, from the machinery that moves the earth, to the foundry that makes the steel. As much as I’ve always wanted to believe in a cozy eco future, every time I squint a little I can see that it’s all just a coat of green paint over the same old oil field. The people trying to sell you on oil, and the people trying to sell you on alternatives to it, are doing the same thing. Selling you something. That’s all that matters to them.
There is no feasible alternative that changes the outcome. There is no replacement for what has allowed us to create wonders and horrors beyond our ancestors wildest dreams, and sustain a population far beyond anything we could have achieved without fossil fuels. When oil finally becomes unproductive, so will the mechanisms that hold our current civilization together, and we will wind up back in 1810 if we’re lucky, or 400ad if we aren’t.
Call me a doomer and downvote me or whatever. It doesn’t matter.
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Yeah I was heavily into peak oil once, too.
Don't underestimate the power of literally everyone on the planet really really wanting to avoid that situation. Life finds a way.
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You’re getting too anxious about what every little thing costs the environment. Yes, you’re right, there’s no silver bullet that makes anything magically sustainable, but there also doesn’t have to be.
Pay more attention to the overall environmental cost, or the change in environmental cost. Of course we’ll never get to zero, but it’s quite possible to get to a sustainable level. The big example is always an EV: sure, it costs the environment a little more to make an EV than an ICE car, but looking at overall costs, you’ve already made that up after only two typical years of driving on most places. And that will only get better as manufacturing gets more efficient and power production gets more green
with a sliver of insubstantial wind and nuclear power
Dude, come on. Looking at US electricity production, yes, natural gas is the biggest. But nuclear production is about the same as coal. And renewables are about the same as coal. And coal is dropping like a rock while most new electricity production is renewables. Nuclear and renewables together are pushing 40%. Despite short sightedness from some of our corporate politicians, it’s way more than a sliver
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You've been led to believe all of this is a malthusian "die off" that the GOP will make happen one way (ruining the earth to maintain its special privilege) or another (bringing about some kind of holy war). Stop it.
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So there are politicans who really believe that climate change is a conspiracy? Or they just don't care for the future?
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Remaining rich depends on them not believing climate change
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There's an enormous amount of money in renewable energy and battery manufacturing. That's why Texas leads the nation in wind farm power and Atlanta, Georgia is getting a $4.3B investment at its Hyundai electric vehicle plant.
But there's also a ton of legacy infrastructure that generates enormous revenue streams. If you've just invested billions into our rapidly expanding oil pipeline network
You're not going to want us to give up on mineral extraction across the American northwest or central plains.
This is a real clash of industries.
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Oil losing value, someone remind them that selling their bag holding oil stocks is a good play.
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They're bought by the oil industry
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I don't think it matters whether or not they really believe it.
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Those who don't, believe in money.
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Have you seen how old they are? Doesn't matter for them.
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No children, no niece?
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Electric cars aren't going to fix climate change
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It's gonna help. There's not an all out 1 solution.
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Electric trains might, but we're even worse at building them than cars.
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Who says EV are going to fix climate change?
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Yes, but an easy target.
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Ok then that means we have to consider the fact that Car-oriented zoning laws and construction are bad for our future. 15-minute cities and infrastructure to support alternative modes of transit for longer distances are the way forward.
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Inb4 "both parties are the same".
While I hate stuff like these rollbacks, we are already starting to see EVs save people money on gas and service, and they are stupidly fast compared to ICE counterparts. That's something Americans of all stripes can get behind.
Once I tried an ebike, I realized I never wanted to go back to gas engines. So fast, so much torque, and pennies to charge vs $70 gas tanks at Costco (even more at a normal gas station). It just makes economic sense to run PEVs in all major urban areas in addition to mass transit.
With traffic and some protected bike lanes, even a conventional bike can almost beat a car in a 7-14 mile drive in my city. An ebike makes it even easier.
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I'd be riding an ebike right now, if I knew how I could park it safely :/ do you typically bring it with you?
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I mean, how much does your e-bike cost? If you can get one, especially a used one for a relatively affordable price and you actually sit down and tally up car costs like insurance, gas, maintenance, AAA, tires, any number of other costs…. I don’t think it matters if someone occasionally steals your e-bike (outside of it being extremely frustrating and inconvenient). Someone could steal your e-bike every 6 months or so and you likely will still be spending FARRRRRR less buying a new/used electric bicycle than you would just owning a car and using it and then having to deal with the insane never ending bullshit costs of keeping a car on the road.
So idk, build up a savings so you can replace your e-bike if you need to and then just use it. So long as you get a years use out of it or so it has already earned you quite a bit of money from cutting car costs.
Get one of those e-bikes with a removable battery with a key lock, then take your battery so if someone steals your bicycle they can’t steal the actually expensive part.
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I use an Oxford Monster chain and U lock. I park my bike in highly visible areas. Registered it with 529 garage and have the tracking sticker on it. And if I'm really sketched out, I activate a bike alarm that is ungodly loud.
Mostly, it's about making your bike harder to steal. Cutting through 12mm chain and a standard ulock sucks. Getting caught with it being easily identified on 529 makes it risky to steal and easy to be returned. Some cities also do bike valet or bike lockers.
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we are already starting to see EVs save people money on gas and service, and they are stupidly fast
- there was an article on measurable air pollution improvements in I think San Francisco, attributed to EV use
- the stupidity on industrial policy gets me: EVs are a new industry growing fast, and Chinese companies are growing fastest. Effing idiots want to throw away the chances for American companies to get into the new market. Sure, be more profitable for the next quarter while watching your legacy market dry up and don’t even try to make your mark. Somehow this is all twisted up in Sinophobia and racism and we’re in Bizarro World where everything is opposite
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I have arrived! Both parties are the same! No affordable EV's for you! Keep slurrrrping that petrol!
Hike tariffs on Chinese EVs, Senate Democrats urge Biden administration
"Artificially low-priced Chinese EVs flooding the U.S. would cost thousands of American jobs and endanger the survival of the U.S. automotive industry as a whole."
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I agree, but the real problem with ebikes over light motorcycles is the range. Trying to get an ebike with decent speed and range costs a fortune and the range and speed is still incredibly limited for long trips.
You also can't ride them on the road where I live, a point that I've been trying to get through to one of my roommates.
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So basically, one side is a hive mind that's required to always do what its most powerful members want, and the other has free thinkers that sometimes disagree, and you're saying that the latter is weak, pointless, and should never exist.
Buddy, this is a terrible definition of "weak". What you're describing is a goddamn borg cube.
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Surely the oil and energy companies have their own investments into renewables. I can't imagine why Rs would die on this hill except for their little culture war.
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Because you can't corner the renewables market like the oil markets have been. Also oil dependence means a constant need for oil. Solar panels or windmills are much more install and forget. So yeah, they can invest in oil alternatives, but they won't make nearly as much money from it.
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Oil companies usually do not, but electricity companies do. The problem is that oil companies are great in geology, drilling and chemistry. Geothermal is a similar skill set and chemistry can be used in other products, but the first is small business and the other not renewable nexessarily.
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I like it much better when Republicans stick to pushing for things that are just useless rather than destructive.
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republicans are raping the planet.
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bOtH SiDeS AkShUaLlY
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The cybertruck can go, sure, but let the rest be
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You probably forgot about the Hummer.
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wait they made an electric hummer?
edit: son of a gun
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Yeah i did heh.
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You could easily argue the Hummer is symbolic of the problem with legacy manufacturer’s attempts at EVs, or at least the most extreme
Rather than create an EV anyone can afford, rather than design a vehicle around the needs of an EV, rather than care about any sort of efficiency …. Take a monster of excess and just keep adding thousands of pounds of batteries until it works. And you end up with more of a monster of excess: excessive price, excessive consumption of batteries/materials, excessive weight. You have a vehicle designed for people who values excess, made it even more excessive and expensive, and try to sell it to customers in the name of efficiency and reduced pollution. Of course it won’t work.
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Fuck them
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You misspelled Russians.
I take that back, you spelled Russians correctly.
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This is republican assholes wanting to protect their oil wealth. Has nothing to do with workers.
Imagine actively destroying the place your kids live to get more money. They’re psychopaths
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There's also a huge about of FUD on EVs being able to be remotely controlled or disabled. The same can be done with gas vehicles that have computers in them and EVs can be made dumb with only the electronics needed for them to function.
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So basically: both sides are as bad as each other and anyway probably it's all bad anyway?
Even if true that both sides are heavily invested in oil, both sides are not objectively equal on decisions to expand vs limit oil exploration rights, and both sides are not the same in pushing for more electric and less gas, and in improving vs reversing fuel efficiency standards, etc etc
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Have they tried helping Lower Gas Prices or are they just trying to make owning EVs Illegal like TRUE Small Government, Free Market Leaders would?
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Why wouldn't they? They are, after all, the craven whores who thirst for corporate donor cock.
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Hey, I agree with the sentiment but sex work is a respectable job unlike being a crooked as shit congress person ruining the future of countless people :)
Also being a slut is a respectable job too, the world runs on sluts like me.
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Look up thos congresspersons' donor history
Bet my bottom dollar they're getting donations from groups that tie back to the auto industry
Get the fucking money out of politics
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But they don't want to. They're only selling EVs of any sort to stay competitive and compliant with regulation. Toyota has all but said fuck EVs.
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Cmon go so far right you hit the left and start advocating for public transit and improved mixed use infrastructure to "own the libs"
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NEWS FLASH: GOP Still Shameless Liars!
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The weird part is, when you actually talk to a Conservative irl, they don't care about EVs. Sure they might not like them—they might even think they're a Political scheme or whatever. But they at least understand that there are more important things happening. Politicians failure to represent their user base's viewpoint in the US is always astounding.
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EVs are being built to save the car industry not the planet. I'll probably get an electric vehicle once the kinks get worked out but I know how the materials are acquired and what happens when the batteries can't hold a charge. It's a baby step but definitely shouldn't be stopped from evolving.
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EV battery recycling is too valuable not to happen.
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Sounds good doesn't it
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That would be fine if they were trying to reverse ALL personal vehicle adoption, but nooo.
The problem with this is that this will encourage Canada to do the same, like the good little brother it is, and we'll get fucked along with y'all -_-
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lol, looks like Elon Fuck’s brown nosing has failed miserably.
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This is the best summary I could come up with:
Republican lawmakers are attempting to overturn the twin pillars of the Biden administration’s climate platform: tax credits for electric vehicles and the Environmental Protection Agency’s new rules to curb tailpipe emissions.
The effort involves new bills introduced by members of Congress, as well as lawsuits filed by state attorneys general, all with the goal of rolling back the minimal progress made by the Biden administration to reduce the share of planet-warming carbon emissions produced by the automotive sector.
Last month, 25 Republican attorneys general filed a lawsuit intended to overturn the EPA’s recently finalized tailpipe rules aimed at slashing greenhouse gas emissions in half by 2032.
In a statement, Kentucky Attorney General Russell Coleman accused President Biden of being “willing to sacrifice the American auto industry and its workers in service of its radical green agenda.”
In the final guidance, some automakers that have EV battery packs with imperceptible trace amounts of minerals like graphite that originate from China or other “foreign entities of concern” now have a two-year extension to fully adhere to the Inflation Reduction Act.
During the run-up to the November election, Republican politicians, led by former President Donald Trump, have seized on electric vehicles as a wedge issue in the ongoing culture wars.
The original article contains 636 words, the summary contains 207 words. Saved 67%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
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Republicans don't pull out
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That's all great, but the real thing that will stop it is economics. We have a PHEV and I calculated it out and we pay $8 per gallon equivalent compared to $5.50 for regular gas. That's a pretty big difference. Right now we ignore the EV part of the vehicle. (Live in California and I pay $0.50/kwh.)
We're planning on getting solar shortly and that may make it feasible, but until then, it's not.
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Good God, your utility company isn’t even using lube when they fuck you with a rusty shovel. Without solar, my time off use plan would make it $0.08/kWh. With solar I don’t even bother figuring out what my cost per mile is because it’s irrelevant till I need a fast charger. I don’t even pay $0.50/kWh at a fast charger usually. I’d be going with a full off-grid solar battery system if I were you. Charging my neighbors cars for free before selling a joule back to those assholes
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Yeah what the heck? How does this guy use electric for regular things, let alone a car?
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Is electric pricey where you are? It's been a while since I calculated, but last I checked, electric was cheaper in my area than gas for most of the electric vehicles.
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Where in California are you? Here in SoCal with SCE their PRIME Time Of Use plan is $0.26/kWH from 9PM - 4PM. Totally works for my family since we work from home and drive EVs locally. We also have a 2019 Prius which gets us about 50-55 MPG and 500+ miles on a full tank for longer drives.
Edit: I should add that the standard Time Of Use plan is $0.38/kWH from 9PM - 4PM. Peak hour usage from 4PM - 9PM is somewhere between $0.53 - $0.62/kWh I think.
We mainly charge our car overnight and it works out well for us.
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What kind of electric mileage do you get? My Bolt gets about 3.5 miles per kilowatt hour, and my electricity costs $0.12 per kWh. I figure a car like that would get about 30MPG if it were an ICE vehicle. To go 30 miles would take about 8.5 kWh, which would cost about a dollar. Yes, your electricity is 4x the price (ouch!) but 8x the gas equivalent?
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We have a Volvo XC90. Much bigger (and probably heavier) than your Bolt. It gets ~26MPG on the gas only mode. It has an 18.8kWh battery and can go ~30 miles on a charge. So again, bigger, heavier, and less efficient. At $0.50 per kWh, it takes ~$9 for 30 miles, and ~$5.5 in gas to go 26 miles.
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what State's have battery fabs? not KY, obviously - but, others, presumably?
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what State’s have battery fabs? not KY, obviously - but, others, presumably?
Set to start production next year:
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A car still a car. Fuck cars. Yes, EVs too.
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Cars will be needed, period
Having said that, 90something percent of car rides are under 5 kms and can be done by bike IF good biking infrastructure is available
We MUST redesign cities to become humans first, walking and biking must be easy, smaller cars can enter to destination, smaller trucks can enter to supply stores, and that's it. If you design cites for people and bikes, people will use it. Add good public transportation, and you're golden.
Right now in 99% of the cities in the world, using bikes is suicidal, walking anywhere beyond a parking lot is suicidal. We gotta change that part.
Most people will stop using expensive cars if they can bike everywhere, or use good regular public transportation for longer trips.
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Fortunately or unfortunately, this change is also political. Vote for the right people. Hey involved in local elections. Right to your local politicians. Attend town meetings if possible.
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Newer gasoline/petrol cars are also data collection machines. False dichotomy there.
Even if the electricity comes from fossil fuels, the efficiency of large plants is far better than that of individual combustion engines; and it provides better opportunity to replace the source with something renewable or at least safer, like solar, wind, or nuclear.
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IMO: If your post contains Political views and Technology, than then it should be posted in Politics and not Technology.
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In my opinion, it should be posted in both because it's relevant to both.
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Not really, my technological interest has nothing to do with a political view. Especially when the "politics" are the sheepish "red vs blue".
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This is only a concern for EV companies. The environmental impact of these subsidies and regulations is nill
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This is only a concern for EV companies. The environmental impact of these subsidies and regulations is nill
Got a source to back up your claim?
Here's one contradicting it:
Gasoline demand growth to slow this year on EV growth in China, U.S.
"Penetration of electric vehicles has been increasing in U.S. and China," said Woodmac analyst Sushant Gupta.
Both the USA and China subsidize EV sales (and also petroleum exploration and extraction for that matter).
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Honestly, dumping tons of money into tech that has so many problems may not he the best idea.
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Agreed. The innumerable problems that coincide with fossil fuel based technology means it's a terrible idea to continue to subsidize it at taxpayer expense.
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How do you think technology matures? It took years for automobiles to become reliable like they are today. It'll take years for EVs to become mature, but the only way to do that is to work on them now and improve as we go along. The absolute wrong thing to do is throw out the entire concept because they aren't perfect now.
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What problems
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322 comments
"Kentucky Attorney General Russell Coleman accused President Biden of being “willing to sacrifice the American auto industry and its workers in service of its radical green agenda."
I mean we could try and transition workers from a more negative industry type to a positive one...but that seems like a lot of work and less profitable, so never mind.
What the actual fuck is wrong with Republican politicians? I mean, I already know what's wrong with Republican voters - brainwashing by years of Fox "News" - but the politicians? Are they all literal sociopaths?
No, they're just doing what they're being paid to do by special interest groups aka big business. It's not a bug and it's not a feature; it's the point. Optimal profits this quarter. Every quarter is a new quasi generation of executives who want a good quarter before moving on after x quarters.
The philosophy behind conservativism is to stay still. Conserve the status. Do not progress.
Nothing. They're behaving quite rationally.
You just have to understand that their motivation is not "successful governing" or "making the world better" but rather, "getting more money."
When you view their actions through the lens of self-enrichment, they're behaving quite normally.
You gotta know at this point the system has feedback. Its possible most of them were raised on the same shit their constituents are huffing.
It's been so long that the inmates are running the asylum in the GOP these days.
When you brainwashed for generations, you end with brainwashed in politics. This is just the beginning.
It’s just simple corruption (or lobby, as it’s called in the US), they are saying what the highest bidder asks them to say
Yes. Just pick one and pay attention to what they do and say for a little while.
rustbelting makes voters transition from democrat to republican. you could argue that they actually benefit from declining industry, so of course they're going for it
omg politicians being bad I'm absolutely gobsmacked
The American auto industry could also produce EVs, if it so chose. Nobody has to lose their jobs.
As an American auto worker, I like our move to EVs and the jobs at the massive new factories we built. But I guess wanting blue collar workers learning new skills and technologies makes me a gay communist.
Tesla is an American company. The 'traditional' American auto companies like GM and Ford don't even build or source a lot of their parts in the US and Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep has been owned by a European company for quite a while now. This guy is a chump and I wish someone would have called him out on his BS.
Maybe someone should create EV incentives, with a requirement to be manufactured in country - both incentive to buy and incentive to manufacturers to invest in guaranteed growth area, and for their own future. Oops, that’s what we already have
They already do: Ford has the Mach-E & F-150 Lightning plus a bunch of PHEVs, GM has (had) the Bolt, Stellantis makes a few PHEVs among which one of the the very few cars on the market that can carry 7 passengers on battery power (the Chrysler Pacifica) altough that one is made in Canada, not the US.
Oh, and all of Tesla.
I find that very hard to believe.
There's also nothing stopping the big three from making EVs.
And making more than the minimum the government requires them to make for quota. Demand is even there now, so there's no excuse other than the bottom line, plus a bit of cooperation with the oil companies.
So I keep hearing people say:
“Just wait until the big players get into the game, then I’ll buy a good car”.
Imo the big players don’t deserve to survive this transition. They had their opportunity to spearhead it but instead literally chose to be on the wrong side of history.
Nothing stopping big players but greed to get into the EV game.
Yeah but it's cheaper to just kill the competition than expand into a whole new sector.
Perhaps they'd like to rollback all the times we've bailed out the auto industry. We don't want the government to be choosing winners and losers, after all.
Please do. "too big to fail" is bullshit. All the equipment getting liquidated could have went to companies that could have started up for pennies. I can only imaging how many companies could have started and where they'd be today if they were allowed to do their thing.
I'm really tired of republicans calling anything democrats do "radical" or "extreme" when they're just pushing for the most mild stuff. I would die for some actual radical left ideas.
I don't know what this guy is pissed about. China is going to make their EVs in Mexico, like responsible American companies!
They've already made contracts and announcements for France as well.
It’s not even less profitable.
That’s weird, because my Ford PHEV was assembled in Kentucky.
UAW got bipartisan support, right?
It's almost like one of the main functions a functioning federal government is to create and regulate new markets. But why bother politicians with work when they can just try to bully people into complacency.