Using Google whilst Duck Duck Go is down. How long has Google been this bad?
So ddg is down, so I visit Google. It's been some years.
I just can't believe how poor it's results are, and how it's trying to suggest things it think I might also want (and failing miserably).
I just assumed ddg would be the lesser, but I use it for privacy. Turns out I'm wrong.
How long has Google been this bad?
For many years now, almost the only way to find tech-related answers was to add the word "reddit" to your search. Before the Rexodus ofc.
Nowadays a lot of people go straight to where they wanted to find info - Wikipedia, StackOverflow, IMDB, etc. - and search from there.
Google itself has admitted how bad it has gotten, and in response they decided to voluntarily reduce their profits and return everything back to when it all worked... - no I'm just kidding, they said wait a bit and AI will save us all, somehow (from ourselves?).
Nowadays a lot of people go straight to where they wanted to find info - Wikipedia, StackOverflow, IMDB, etc. - and search from there.
Didn't people always do this, though? If I want to find something on Wikipedia, why wouldn't I search on Wikipedia for it? I have Firefox configured so that it searches Wikipedia when I type "wiki" then a space then the search query.
Okay but do you also do that for StackOverflow? And if so, then also for IMDB, and everything else? Google invested heavy effort to get people to not even remember or bookmark URLs - simply type "Wikipedia" into the bar and it would do a quick search to translate that into something, perhaps https://www.wikipedia.org/ or even https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page. Later, browsers started allowing other ways like searching through your locally stored bookmarks, but that doesn't change how Google pushed heavily and first towards being your one-stop place to find what you want just by thinking about it and typing a word or two. Their summaries of movies I find far superior to IMDB, and even to Wikipedia, if all I want is like the most famous movie or two from a particular actor/actress to think - "oh, that's where I know them from!"
You resisted that trend, which was inefficient, and introduced another dependency of Google to something that did not need it in the chain of finding results that you expected to be found on Wikipedia, so good on you. But not everyone did that.
Likewise, adding "Reddit" to a query added another purpose: if you knew you wanted a search result from Reddit specifically, then finding it via Google was far easier than trying to use Reddit's internal search, which remains extremely poorly implemented. A lot of places use Google searches internally, and if not then they rely on Google externally, to help find content in them. And why not, bc Google "wasn't evil", unlike e.g. Microsoft or questionably (at the time) Apple? So bc everything tied back to Google regardless, why not get the full Google experience? Or so I imagine the thinking went.
But no, I don't think "people" meaning "everyone" already went straight to where they wanted to search, and even those of us who did (I also most often went straight to Wikipedia, depending on what I was searching for, bc it has fairly good internal search capabilities) did not do it for everything or even perhaps for most things - the latter measured as width of categorizations as in breadth of variety of info - even if not numerically as in "most searches performed". Google was extremely prominent and central for most people, especially those who did not think about how prominent and central it had become.
Nope. People Google everything. Want to visit Amazon? Most people Google Amazon to get there. URL bars that search are handy but likely emphasize this behavior.
https://www.wheresyoured.at/the-men-who-killed-google/
Read for the exact timeline
That is an amazing read. Thank you!
Insane. Thanks for sharing.
Google search peaked in 2014 - that's when it'd let you do "that movie where [horribly vague summary of an incidental scene]" and get you the answer.
But the complete dropoff started in 2019, when they started letting the ad team remove anti-spam features to game their numbers.
I still find myself trying to search like that every once in a while :(
I just can’t believe how poor it’s results are
Interesting, as the incredibly poor results are why I am still not using DDG. It's like a worse Bing, and Bing is already terrible.
You are btw correct that Google results have gotten worse. There were studies run that confirmed this. The very same studies found that Bing (and by extension ~all third-party engines) have also gotten worse, and faster so than Google. In other words, search as a whole has gone to shit, which anecdotally matches up with my repeated attempts to swap to DDG every 6-12 months that just result in learning to add !g to every single search, so I might as well skip doing that.
Your take matches my experience perfectly. I always am baffled when people say Google is worse than ddg. I always wanted to use ddg instead, but try as I might, on a literal daily basis, at least 30% ddg results are trash and I have to switch to Google to find whatever I am looking for
That's my experience as well. Now I use a SearXNG instance with Google as the only source and it works well I'd say roughly 97% of the time.
I'm pretty sure it's just trendy to call Google search shit, and to criticise the top product. I'm also pretty sure DDG is just uses Bing search under the hood (plus it's privacy features), so I always thought these complaints were quite funny. The ads on Google are probably the most aggressive though, which IMO is the worst part.
Funny fact: google's newest feature is also its best, but it's kinda hidden and might not be available everywhere - it's "web search", which cuts out all the awful bullshit
Explain!
https://tedium.co/2024/05/17/google-web-search-make-default/
This was all I had on hand, goes into setting it as default but does also decently show why it is good
Google is great if you want to buy things. It's absolutely shit for information gathering.
I'd argue the noise is to a point where it's even shit for buying things.
It used to be great for information if you included reddit in the search terms. Instead of google learning from reddit, reddit is now full of ads and bots. I guess google apps will be complete garbage soon too.
Id argue it’s also shit for buying things because it will only give you products with paid ads. It’s useless to discover adjacent products or finding different sources.
And in web search when searching for a product it gives you dozens of "product tests" pages that are actually paid SEO articles. No, that page that shares a name with a newspaper has not actually tested what the best dishwasher in 2024 is.
I don't think Google can be beat when it comes to searching local businesses, but otherwise you might as well go straight to Wikipedia.
It started when Search Engine Optimisation became a thing, so it's been a while. But it really went downhill a few years ago.
Don't think any engine is immune to SEO
I’ve found Google alternatives great for things that are… filtered (copyright etc), but honestly no matter what search engine I use, I swear none just give you the results for your query anymore. I’ve still been finding the Bing-based ones horrible quality for relevancy and defaulting to Google.
Maybe it's not only a search engine problem, but a content problem. There's less and less useful content on the web nowadays
i have the opposite problem. ive aways had to go back to google becasue DDG sucks so hard.. and now i find out its because its bing-based. awesome.
Same here. I switched to DDG last year, but had to go back within two weeks; it was just too annoying.
Google search results have indeed gotten pretty bad, but I've yet to see anyone surpass them.
I noticed it getting worse over the years. I switched to SearXNG last year when I felt Google was getting really ridiculous.
They started censoring a lot at some point, maybe because they had to, but that's not the only reason.
Hahaha, I ~just came after a search using g**gle due to ddgo being down, I noticed the "web" search is no longer the default (as it was discussed some days ago here).
Google seems to have a huge grip on people and they don't seem to notice (or act against) the terrible services of google search..
They didn't make that the default. What was discussed was a way to make it default (add https://www.google.com/search?q=%s&udm=14 as a custom search engine)
And the comments on those posts said we should actually use DDG instead lol
It’s been bad for a few years at least but it has gotten even worse recently, I assume due to incorporating AI/LLM’s into the mix.
It doesn't help that the AI answer it gives takes up like half the screen and takes 30 seconds to load. LLMs are great for asking complex questions, but that's not what I want to use a search engine for.
Google has been this bad since their initial IPO, when they signalled their intent to do this, and should have been stopped to protect the most useful public utility ever invented. Since that day they've been a pimp; the decision to become a pimp led to this.
"Do no evil"
"Don O'Evil"
I've been trying to get used to DDG recently and while I've definitely noticed the decline of Google, that decline has been subtle for me, it hasn't become a disaster, it's just generally frustrating and just not as good as it used to be. But that said, I haven't exactly loved DDG in comparison. It's okay, definitely works, recent outage excepted, but I often found the results kind of needed more work to make use of, they were more kind of, on the topic of what I asked for rather than specifically what I asked within the domain of that topic. It's more like using a search engine as one would have done some 15 or so years ago. Often if trying to find something out I'd be disappointed by the non specific or irrelevant results and get suspicious and try changing back to google for the same thing and found that though they largely contained the same results, Google would have one or two that DDG didn't which were closer to the top of the results and were more specifically about my precise query than just the general topic. I think these tend to be things like forum posts where, if my query is a question, someone's asked basically that exact or very similar question.
I think DDG is mostly working ok enough for me that I'll persevere but I can't say it's been better.
I found that switch DDG to my default was good enough for ~80% of my searches. I'll only use Google as an alternative for shopping since that's where DDG legitimately just sucks at providing anything that's not "temu" or alibaba.
I don't know, been on Kagi for a year so forgot Google.
How do you use it on mobile? I've seen there's no mobile app
Just set Kagi as default search in your browser. There is a plugin you can install that does it, easiest way.
https://help.kagi.com/kagi/getting-started/setting-default.html
Looks nice, do you recommend it? Why not use ddg?
I use it, and like it. They dropped prices a while back so now you can get unlimited searches for $10 a month (they also have a $5 limited tier and a free trial).
First thing is I'd like to live in a world where search engines (and the internet in general) don't have to be ad supported. This is a different model so I want to support it.
But also Kagi has some nice features. My favourite is how I can block Pinterest, and boost the ranking of other sites like Wikipedia. Basically you can have some control over search results.
If you're familiar with SearxNG, that's basically how Kagi works. They run the searches on a bunch of search engines and then present one cohesive search results page. But SearxNG for me takes several seconds to get the results, and Kagi is almost instant.
I don't know if it's significantly better than the free options, but I like using it and it's pretty cheap really.
Not OP, but I copy my reply from the last time someone asked an opinion on kagi:
I use it, but to be honest I did not do a comprehensive comparison. I like it mostly for the fine grained website control. For work and some personal stuff I often look for code and can push websites like GitHub to appear more often. Or I can block Pinterest in my search results. I tried to do this in SearXNG, but this was too much of a hassle so in a way I pay kagi for convenience. I recently got a new job and will evaluate in the coming months if it is still worth the money, but right now I am satisfied. Nobody else I know would pay for a search engine, so I can understand the stance, but I am really fed up with all the advertising and enshitification so I thought why not give it a try. And yes, because it was recommended here.
Kagi is just excellent so I guess that's why. It's so good I completely forgot about Google when I tried it.
I used ddg a few years back too but I always had to use Google for certain queries and never felt fully satisfied with the search results. It felt like a worse search engine that I was using because I didnt want to use Google.
With Kagi it's the opposite. It's a better search engine than Google. It's Google results without the dark patterns and hostile behavior from google.
^This is for anyone who doesn't know, click on the web button in the "More" drop down list after making a search to get the old style search results instead of the new ones. People mentioned this in the thread earlier so I thought I'd make it clear.
Feels like about 6 months or so? If I do an image search it only seems to pull items linking to a retail site. Everything is about sales and I can't find information.
I think it's been years now. At least a couple of years, I was baffled too back in the day.
it's been slowly getting worse since the 2010s. i remember talking about it back then.
Google started getting really bad about a year ago
The last few months have especially been bad.
I love when I search for a movie: New Life (2024) it'll give me IMDB results. I hate IMDB so I change my search to: New Life (2024) TMDB Google will give me the TMDB result as the first result and IMDB as the second result but it also has the did you mean "New Life (2024) IMDB" as an alternative search option. Makes me wonder if Amazon (which owns IMDB) is paying Google to push IMDB. Makes me feel like Google is trying to gaslight me.
Tbh the reason for that is probably just that IMDB is wildly more popular
It might be my localization, but it doesn't seem that bad to me, and I generally use duckduckgo. But forced localization is enough.
I‘m using searx.be most of the time. Safari wont allow it so I got confronted with ddg being down today. Still only use google if something is unfindable (mostly niche computer stuff).
Startpage (has Google search results) or Google with private browsing haven't given me the new AI suggestions so far
I use !g if I'm searching for local stores around me but that's pretty much all google search can do well. Oh and images but ddg images are good in most cases.
I use bing for porn. Its great for porn.
I use 4get.ca
Always.
I think SearXNG is best.
I keep seeing this and I tried it but I couldn’t get great results consistently. Maybe I need to spend some more time looking into it again
It may be the instance you used or something else I'm not aware of, but I always get great results.
The only thing is sometimes an instance dies and I need to find and start using another one, but it's not a big deal. You can find instances here.
A couple years ago I began getting frustrated. Last year I started to first go to Bing, google as failsafe. Now I gave up on everything so might as well go with Ecosia. When I NEED something, I'll go with bing/bing's chatGPT.
Can confirm. I struggled to remember the name of the ancient website vampirefreaks after the concept came up in conversation and out of the big search engines only Bing's flavor of chatGPT could tell me what I was looking for.
Pretty sure DDG, Ecosia and Bing all use the same backend?
I don't see much AI stuff on Google yet but most searches there now give me only video results for some reason, with no way to opt out of them and get text results. It DDG fails me I just give up now.
It's only been about a year really, but the Enshittification was logarithmic and got twice as bad every day
I did 2 searches yesterday that gave me crap on Google and then I tried Bing and it gave me what I was looking for on the first page.
I went to StartPage personally.
That's just a proxy for google. Same terrible results.
I use Swiss Cow and it works fine https://swisscows.com
You have infinitely other options. search.brave.com, yandex, bing. And probably a lot of cool ones I don't know about.
All of them search more accurately your directly requested phrase instead of a blurry interpretation of your sentiment.
since it becomes a monopoly
I think since around 2016? Google changed their algos to prioritize mainstream media. This is actually a way to censor since MSM is all controlled by the CIA. Jacobin and NY post have the exact same opinions about countries the CIA and state department don't like.
please go back home, paid ccp actor
Yikes. Found the gullible one or paid disinformation spreader.
Use brave search so much better than google
I think Brave is one of the few somewhat common browser/search companies that is worse than Google
Prefer Firefox browser. But what is bad about their search it seems to be the most accurate to what I want. I always found ddg to give me stuff outside of exactly what I want. Google just started going out of right field. Then the summary ai thing recently added to brave search has been decent. I like the sources
If you're using DDG for privacy, then indeed you are wrong.
It may be "less invasive" than google, but it's neither anonymous, nor private.
Direct privacy abuse:
DDG was caught violating its own privacy policy by issuing tracker cookies.
DDG’s app sends every URL you visit to DDG servers. (reaction).
DDG is currently collecting users’ operating systems and everything they highlight in the search results. (to verify this, simply hit F12 in your browser and select the “network” tab. Do a search with javascript enabled. Highlight some text on the screen. Mouseover the traffic rows and see that your highlighted text, operating system, and other details relating to geolocation are sent to DDG. Then change the query and submit. Notice that the previous query is being transmitted with the new query to link the queries together)
DDG is accused of fingerprinting users’ browsers.
When clicking an ad on the DDG results page, all data available in your session is sent to the advertiser, which is why the Epic browser project refuses to set DDG as the default browser.
DDG blacklisted Framabee, a search engine for the highly respected framasoft.org consortium."
CloudFlare:
DDG promotes one of the largest privacy abusing tech giants and adversary to the Tor community: CloudFlare Inc. DDG results give high rankings to CloudFlare sites, which consequently compromises privacy, net neutrality, and anonymity.
Full article: http://techrights.org/2020/07/02/ddg-privacy-abuser-in-disguise/
ETA: The bulk of the text in my reply was lifted from a reddit comment. I tried to format my comment to reflect that it's a "quote", alas I've failed. Hence this.
Also, I don't have a card in this game. I understand anonymity and privacy - I dislike intentional deception.
What to use them, if not DDG
I'm currently using searx.be with good results
I use kagi, it's very good.
I've collected these 3 so far, but Swiss Cows if you go deep enough uses Bing. I'm not sure about Mojeek or Start Page.
If you have spare hardware lying around and a public IP (or a server anyway), you can selfhost SearXNG.
If you're fine with paying 12$/month (with tax) for a customizable search engine, very accurate and transparently sourced/quoted LLM, and just a better index than any other search engine I know, use Kagi. I heard some rumors and bad things, but nothing to do with privacy, only the aforementioned tax.
And for a free search engine which claims privacy and is an alternative to DDG, with its own index afaik, Brave.
Mojeek isn't perfect, but it's truly independent search engine.
Do they "give high rankings" to CloudFlare sites because they just boost up whoever is behind CloudFlare, or because the sites happen to be good search hits, maybe that load quickly, and they don't go in and penalize them for... telling CloudFlare that you would like them to send you the page when you go to the site?
Counting the number of times results for different links are clicked is expected search engine behavior. Recording what search strings are sent from results pages for what other search strings is also probably fine, and because of the way forms and referrers work (the URL of the page you searched from has the old query in it) the page's query will be sent in the referrer by all browsers by default even if the site neither wanted it nor intends to record it. Recording what text is highlighted is weird, but probably not a genuine threat.
The remote favicon fetch design in their browser app was fixed like 4 years ago.
The "accusation" of "fingerprinting" was along the lines of "their site called a canvas function oh no". It's not "fingerprinting" every time someone tries to use a canvas tag.
What exactly is "all data available in my session" when I click on an ad? Is it basically the stuff a site I go to can see anyway? Sounds like it's nothing exciting or some exciting pieces of data would be listed.
This analysis misses the important point that none of this stuff is getting cross-linked to user identities or profiles. The problem with Google isn't that they examine how their search results pages are interacted with in general or that they count Linux users, it's that they keep a log of what everyone individually is searching, specifically. Not doing that sounds "anonymous" to me, even if it isn't Tor-strength anonymity that's resistant to wiretaps.
There's an important difference between "we're trying to not do surveillance capitalism but as a centralized service data still comes to our servers to actually do the service, and we don't boycott all of CloudFlare, AWS, Microsoft, Verizon, and Yahoo", as opposed to "we're building shadow profiles of everyone for us and our 1,437 partners". And I feel like you shouldn't take privacy advice from someone who hosts it unencrypted.
Christ on a bicycle.
I just learnt of searx today, any bad news there?
I'm running a search instance on a VPS so my home IP isn't linked to my searches. The main disadvantage is that my VPS is in Toronto and I live 2hrs away so geo searches don't work very well. For instance, if I Google "restaurants" I get results for local restaurants whereas if I Gregle (I named my search engine Gregle) I get results for results near my VPS.
DM me if you want a link to my instance to check it out. It's open but I don't publicize it because bad actors could ruin my IP addresses reputation with spam queries via the API.
I recently learned about it, but haven't used it. From what I understand, it's similar to how the fediverse works; individual instances are run by whoever wants to run them. If you run your own instance, you have complete trust in it, but you effectively aren't anonymous (unless you support a whole bunch of users to pool together. If you join someone else's instance, you have to trust them. There's public and private instances.
The other downside is that, like many other small players, they are a metasearch engine, so they rely on the big players like Google and Bing who actually crawl the web for information to index. If Google or Bing want to hide information, that trickles down into metasearch engines, too. It's somewhat buffered by thr fact that your metasearch can look through a whole bunch of different indexes, so you aren't held to one countries censorship, but it probably still has an effect.
Searx is dead. You'll want to use SearxNG instead.
Fuck this. Fuck search engines. I'm going back to curated website lists.
Webrings ftw
Where do you find them?
I never left.
I knew my bookmarks would save me
Bring back DMOZ and the Yahoo directory.
Also as DDG is based in the US it is most likely legally bound to give your informations to any agency with a nice gag order on top of it.
I can't imagine any serious privacy oriented business to be headquartered in the US.
The whole better privacy is true with DDG but certainly not to the extent people would like to think.
That being said DDG has decent search results and is slightly better than Google for privacy. Google is an ecosystem so every little bit you don't give them is a success.
It's really too bad we don't have good private search engines..
Excellent reply. Thank you. Do you have any suggestions for alternatives?
Thanks for sharing - didnt know. Thats a long list ..... So which search engine is good and privacy friendly then?
It depends on what you're trying to be private from. Kagi has been good to me so far, my goal is mainly to escape from corporate/ad profile tracking.
You need to put a > in front of each new line.
Honestly thats like the most annoying thing about lemmy. Or maybe its just sync. But still damn annoying.
Not to be dismissive, but if you deconstruct every website like this, won't they all look horrible? I mean how long would Google's list be if you detailed every single controversy and dodgy thing they've done in/to/from their search engine?
They also do ranked search like google, although not as bad but i think that is just a factor of age. Actual search term is often 5th or more down page
Excellent reply. Thank you. Do you have any suggestions for alternatives?
Btw you double posted this