"Of course not - that might hurt my accelerationist dreams!"

Yeah, I'm voting for Biden because I'm not insane, but you can't make me like it.

I still have my Bernie sticker on my laptop. Big RIP to the future that could have been.
- 2016 taught me that 3rd party and no voters tilt the scale in the favor of Republicans. I'm getting flashbacks with all the comments on Lemmy here saying as much.
- Long before Bernie there was Al Gore in 2000 who lost because of a supreme court decision saying the majority vote did not matter in the US (not really, but it did decide the election and stop the Florida recounts). Not only changed the narrative on climate change for the future, but also about what matters for federal elections.
- I wrote in Bernie in the Democratic primary. IDK if that even gets counted; I don't know how it works, but fuck man, someone reads it I know, even if from there it goes straight into the "N/A" column.
- With you, my bro.
Nobody wants to make you like it. It’s a duty.
Biden hasn't been the worst president, but he's far from what we'd like and streets ahead of Trump. It sucks knowing our government is completely bought by the rich.

Splintering of the establishment left (SDP) versus the actual left (KPD) in the 1932 German elections was a big part of what allowed Hitler's rise to power. Even while both were literally gun-battling in the streets with the paramilitary force that later became the SS, the KPD was calling the SDP "the main enemy" and "social fascists." The SDP saw what was coming and allied with their conservative opponents to promote Hindenburg in the 1932 election, so that Hitler wouldn't win, while the KPD ran their own candidate who siphoned off 13% of the vote.

Hindenburg still barely squeaked into power, but Hitler was the only candidate with a strong unified front behind him, and on Hindenburg's death Hitler assumed power and immediately starting killing the KPD members en masse. The SDP and KPD blamed each other, for not compromising and thus allowing Hitler to gain so much ground instead of facing a unified opposition, but at that point it didn't really matter who was or wasn't at fault, and the KPD were the first grouping explicitly singled out for death once he took over.

You can read all about it in here.

I had someone on Lemmy tell me not that long ago that the lesson of this was that the KPD was right, and the SDP were the real enemy for compromising with the conservatives, and if they'd just been more left and earned the support of the real left people then the whole thing wouldn't have happened. I do wonder what attitude in hindsight of one of the KPD people in the camps would have been to this "it's not my job to vote for you, it's your job to earn my support" electoral philosophy, but it's impossible to know, because of course they all were put to death.

I had someone on Lemmy tell me not that long ago that the lesson of this was that the KPD was right, and the SDP were the real enemy for compromising with the conservatives, and if they’d just been more left and earned the support of the real left people then the whole thing wouldn’t have happened.
Yeah, that sounds like my experience on here.
The SPD ordering the execution of Luxemburg and Liebknecht kinda was an irreparable schism I think.
- Ah yes, remember the part where the Spartacists had a literal armed uprising because they didn't like the prospect of participation in a democratic government? Something Luxemburg herself voted against?
  Oh, what am I saying, what I meant is "The Weimar Government should have put the gun barrel to their head and begged the Spartacists to pull the trigger on them"
Lmao that was me again
KPD was responding to the same economic distress as the NSDAP, they were right to believe the national populist movement would continue growing if they didn't deliver on real material relief to the German people.
That the SPD eventually fell to the NSDAP (with hindenburg placing Hitler as chancellor, allowing him to assume power after his death) certainly doesn't exonerate their responsibility in allowing the rise of the nazis.
That was a banger conversation, if I wasn't on mobile I'd go back and find it.
- I think I got irritated and just abandoned the conversation, but we can continue.
  What you just said actually made a lot of sense and as far as I know the history, I agree with it more or less completely (and would allocate blame for Trump at most of the Bill Clinton / Nancy Pelosi type Democrats in exactly the same way for exactly the same reason)
  So if it sounded like I was exonerating them I was not. My point was, once Hitler comes around it doesn't matter; if you're still running a 13% spoiler candidate to weaken the alternative to Hitler, and then blaming the ones who won the election because they didn't do a good enough job of compromising with you... I mean, you may have a case, but you'll still be dead if Hitler wins. Surely that is relevant?
  They sure didn't get the real material relief to the German people by not supporting Hindenburg; definitely not until 1945 and even then it came with some caveats.

The leftists I know voted for Biden in 2020. Real well read, organized leftists, not online strawmen. They didn't like it but they did it.

Of course. If I was American I wouldn’t spend a second campaigning for Biden or telling people “you need to vote!!” online, because I’d rather spend that time unionising my workplace, doing mutual aid, building up communities. Things that build real structural change no matter who’s in power. But on the day I’d still go vote for the lesser evil candidate. It takes a small amount of time. Then I’d go straight back to real work. I think most leftists do the same.
- Legitimately yes, that is the actual point most leftists tired of liberals punching left are making.
  Actual organization outside the bourgeois state apparatus is far more important, plain and simple. I'll probably be voting for Biden, but I am not going to pretend it's "fighting fascism," that happens on the ground.

ThIs MeAnS yOu LoVe GeNoCiDe

-actual thing that gets said regularly by morons

You're own post history is a pretty clear example of liberals hating leftists more than fascists

They don't even seem to be liberal, they've made posts criticising the dems for exactly the same reasons other leftists are.
It just seems like a leftist arguing with leftier leftists because the right wing doesn't appear to have any major presence on lemmy
- You're mostly correct. PugJesus has stated that they are a leftist, but reject Dialectical Materialism, so they aren't a Marxist. Claims to adore Marx but seems to decry every single movement to put his ideas into practice, no matter the circumstance.
  PugJesus has denounced pretty much every existing Leftist movement, such as the Black Panther Party, along Ultra-pure terms, but only treats liberalism with nuanced critique, so it's difficult to believe them to be a genuine leftist and not just a progressive liberal.
- All that
  OR
  Horseshoe theory.
There are basically no right wingers on Lemmy.
- Liberals are right wingers. There are basically no republicans on Lemmy though.
"You are own post history..."
- Sigh
  Some people are not native speakers
  Some people are dyslexic or have other difficulties with writing that they can't help
  Sometimes people just make mistakes, like you did two comments before this one where you wrote "its" instead of "it's"
  You're not better and this isn't helpful or kind
- Great response thank you for the insight

Big bridal shower at a gay bar energy these fake leftists be bringing to the defense of America's most vulnerable when it involves them doing something other than just showing up at the grammable protests and marches.

One of them told me any amount of collateral damage to vulnerable groups is acceptable as long as massive numbers of white moderates are executed, which will teach them a lesson. Except it will be the leftists who are executed? IDGI. It's like they love any sort of authoritarianism far more than they love leftist economics.
- Surely what will emerge from the ashes will be a stateless, classless egalitarian society and not a fascist wasteland!
- And then everyone clapped.
It's astounding. My only comfort is that online communities rarely reflect the makeup of the real world.

Making up a guy to get mad at and owning him super hard on ~~reddit~~ lemmy, the pugjesus classic

I'm not on Lemmy much and have I talked to like five of these guys.

I'll take Things That Don't Happen for 300, Alex

Oh, cool, I was hoping my experiences on Lemmy were just a series of elaborate hallucinations.
- Me too bud

Who is that gray person supposed to represent?

They're supposed to be an NPC, a "Non-Player Character." The term comes from video games, but in this meme format, it refers to a person who doesn't think for themselves, thoughtlessly repeating talking points, without engaging in good-faith discussion. Sort of like how a character in a video game just repeats predetermined lines of dialogue.
In this specific case, it's representing a particular sect of leftists, who criticize Liberals for being uncooperative with them (or will cooperate with people furthermore to their right, such as conservatives, reactionaries, or fascists, instead of with said leftists), who also won't vote for Joe Biden in the upcoming Presidential general election.
This is neither an endorsement nor rejection of the message, but they're saying (this sect of) leftists are hypocrites, thoughtlessly bashing Liberals instead of working together.
I hope that answered your question :-)
- Big thanks! It did answer my question and I also learned something new about this meme type.
The kind of people who say "Liberals hate leftists more than fascists" and then proceed to oppose liberal coalition candidates in situations where a leftist coalition candidate is nonviable, even though fascism is the only realistic alternative outcome to the liberal coalition candidate winning.

Unfortunately my country is filled with right wingers

democrats fund fascists: https://www.vox.com/23274469/democrats-extremist-republicans-mastriano-cox-bailey

and boosted trump into the presidency: https://www.salon.com/2016/11/09/the-hillary-clinton-campaign-intentionally-created-donald-trump-with-its-pied-piper-strategy/

Democrats promote fascists so they can pretend that they're heroes for running against them. Vote for biden, but don't fool yourself into thinking that you're not voting for a fascist, because democrats are absolutely allies of fascists if not outright fascists themselves. They would rather lose an election to a fascist than let a leftist win, 2016 is a prime example of this. As the saying goes, scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds.

I am once again posting that I will never vote for Joe Biden again and you don’t have to either.

This November I’m planning to mark my ballot for the party for socialism and liberation and you can too. There are lots of parties you might be able to align with if psl isn’t your thing.

There are no votes against candidates, only for them. Choosing to vote for Biden isn’t a vote against trump, it’s a vote for Biden and the genocide he just recently denied the existence of.

There are no votes against candidates, only for them.
Sure there is. The boomers/evangelical show up in force every single election. They're gonna do so again this november, and if Trump isn't stopped we may see an end to what little democracy we have. To prevent that (or in other words go against it or vote against it), we need to get more electoral votes for a different candidate. Third parties are not viable for that.
So it's either going to end up being Biden or Trump. And I don't want to see trans people killed, so I'm begrudgingly voting Biden. Have fun with the blood of minorities on your hands because you placed your own need for a clear conscience over the lives of minorities.
- There is no way to vote against a candidate. You can’t mark the bubble “anybody but trump”, or “I wish the democrats had run anyone else”.
  You can only vote for candidates.
  That’s not some metaphor, it’s how the system works.
  A vote for Biden is a vote in support of Biden, not a vote against trump. That’s how it’ll be counted.
  Support for Biden incorporates support for the genocide he supplies and denies the existence of.
  I tried to figure out a polite way to say this and here’s the best I came up with:
  You probably don’t want to invoke the imagery of blood on one’s hands when you’re advocating for Biden.
- Jokes on you, I'm not voting for the sense of smug superiority. No lives matter, etc. /S
Votesocialist2024.com !! 🫡🫡🫡

From a European perspective, this debate is saddening, because it results in people alienating voters if they didn't pick the "right" option, where "right" is whatever moral position you want them to have, on the basis of putting onto them a direct responsibility of an unwanted result, from their indirect action. It is your responsibility to campaign for your own party, and this is not a way to convince people to vote, nor join your side. Your two-party political system is ruining any possibility of political debate for smaller parties, and you end up silencing the voices of minorities that aren't represented by your two monoliths, all thanks to your holier-than-thou attitude. The people voting for Trump are the ones who will get Trump elected, not the people voting for whoever supports their political affiliations, not participating in your dirty voting shenanigans. The only thing you're achieving is guilt tripping someone you could otherwise convince to vote for another party, and pushing them away, making sure they will not vote in your favour next time.

We had the same thing happen in France, where voters were consistently asked to vote against a party for the presidential elections, rather than for the party that represents their ideals. In 2022, upon being elected Emmanuel Macron declared “I also know that many compatriots voted for me, to block the ideas of the extreme right. I want to thank them and tell them that I am aware that this vote binds me for years to come. I am the guardian of their attachment to the Republic”, and then proceeded over the next few years to apply a political program that would make Le Pen proud. [1] [2] [3] [4]

Here are some articles on the subject of "useful vote", translate at your convenience :

And a quote from a random internet user, roughly translated :

No need to be from Saint-Cyr to understand that induction does not only concern cooking in the kitchen, even if it is electoral. The concept of a useful vote naturally leads to that of a… useless vote! Indeed, it may seem legitimate to think that to “have influence” on an election, it would be better to do like the others by voting for those whom the polling institutes place at the top of voting intentions. This is how for a long time, elections have been scrutinized through surveys in which respondents tell you “the trend”. The useful vote is a concept, the reason for the survey which creates the opinion of the respondents. Isn't the real usefulness of voting to choose according to one's own convictions and to grant a useful vote to the candidate whose program best defends our values, our interests determining airtime which has determined, finally, did his sound sound in the polls? Not recognizing this means admitting that “uselessness” leads to abstaining from voting. This is unfortunately a real trend today.

This is the only time I'll interact on the subject, because I know how abrasive it is, but I felt some are in dire need of a reality check. You may disagree because your political culture, landscape, education... are quite different from the ones I experienced so far, but please engage in respectful discussions about it, provide sensible arguments, and don't downvote just because you read something that doesn't validate your feelings. If there's someone you need to blame for Biden's potential failure to get elected, it's him for not running a better campaign to get enough votes, and yourself for vilifying other voters for not sheepily following your orders. These scare tactics are no better than dictatorial behaviours.

Edit : here's a book that will better explain what I'm trying to say https://www.editionsdivergences.com/livre/comment-soccuper-un-dimanche-delection

These scare tactics are no better than dictatorial behaviours.
Ah, yes, the REAL fascism is when you tell people voting for fascism is bad. Great.
- I accept to believe that you skipped the entire comment to only react to the last sentence, and I will not partake in discussing with you. Good day.
As another European it is difficult to see the Americans constantly fight over voting. The two party system is definitely the issue here.
Either way well said.
- Technically, the Two Party system isn't actually a thing. It is instead simply the work of Market Forces. Multiple competitors in any market, shall result in that market being split between two competitors and an also ran. Then Market Power, if abused, shall prevent any actual competition to the duopoly. Something truly disruptive is required to change that. ATM the US has a pair of more or less captured political parties market. They are in no way an official part of the Government. Nothing in the Constitution empowers them. They should have no power at all. No say in who runs nor any influence beyond whatever PR for issues they advocate. However, they worked out how to make getting elected very profitable, and thus very expensive. Rather quickly money called all the shots. Then the manipulated monster these very wealthy and connected folks created to get elected, lost their minds because a "them" got elected President, and the "useful idiot" they brought in to pacify things with some good Fascism, turned out to be in multiple pockets and beholden to no one but himself. There is your US Political History tldr;
Um, no. Opposition to a Fascist Kleptocracy beholden to Theocratic Fascists is not open to negotiation. My allegiance is to the Republic, to democracy!
“I also know that many compatriots voted for me, to block the ideas of the extreme right. I want to thank them and tell them that I am aware that this vote binds me for years to come. I am the guardian of their attachment to the Republic”
I think this is the key. If Biden could acknowledge his imperfections (and more broadly, the Democrats writ large), the situation would be entirely different. I don't think people are looking for a perfect candidate, or a perfect anything, but want to see the spirit of "towards a more perfect Union" expressed in their candidates, which is something I think Macron, in that quote, does so with flourish.
All Biden would need to do is acknowledge the genocide, make the point that while still our ally, Israel has some deep issues to work on, and then point to something like the temporary pier as them "trying". Its all kind-of a layup politically. Israel is deeply unpopular. All Biden needs to do is dribble down court and put it in. The issue with Biden seems to be deeper, that he is personally a Zionist, and has to support this genocidal cause. Its not even clear that Trump would be less extreme in this regard. Biden is as bad as he needs to be on this issue, so it becomes a non-sequiter to make the standard "But Trump" comparison here.
It really is a failure of leadership on the part of Biden, and more broadly, on progressives not splitting the ticket and having Bernie run third party in 2016. If Biden can't move his position significantly on this issue, he can't win. And no amount of conservative democrats punching on leftists because they find it problematic that Biden won't back off a genocide can fix that. As one has to meet people where they are at in order to convince them of something, anything, one also needs to meet the electorate where they are at in terms of what rhetorical approaches work, and what doesn't. The Democrats can't abuse the left into supporting them in November.
- Here's what a french author has to say in a book on the subject, food for thought, roughly translated :
  
  This has happened before, this is happening right now with Macron. His words meant nothing because his actions show he did not follow up on his statement. I think something very important voters have to consider and ask themselves : What is the plan when Biden will disrespect the votes of people who did not vote for him, but voted against Trump. Who will be considered responsible for keeping him in power, when he will enact policies that were defended by the Trump side?
  https://www.editionsdivergences.com/livre/comment-soccuper-un-dimanche-delection
Last time I met a French person was on the selection process for jury duty. The dude was rightfully shocked at the entire process. Americans do not have real political education.
- Out of curiosity, was this in a Red State?

Liberals: "We're on the brink of fascism!"

Also liberals: "Black rifle scary, and should be limited to only law enforcement, politicians, and the wealthy"

*liberals big mad cause they're gonna defeat christofascism by voting republican light.

I'm not voting for Biden. Nobody I know is voting for Biden. It's because of the genocide he denies is happening.

If you don't vote for the guy that denies the genocide, you gonna get the guy that will aknowledge, revel in and accelerate the genocide, together with a sprinkle of killing LGBTQIA+ folk in his own country. Good job.
- What if I just died instead of voting? Is it still my fault?

oooh you are voting, we are truly saved and our problems are solved! why didnt i think of this!

Could it be that threatning Biden with not voting may somehow force him to use his remaining office time to fight an ongoing genocide, by that winning the public opinion of young voters and being in office for another 4 years?
That to me is the a logical course of action.
- If he does that, he loses the vote of the democrats that support Israel.
  Biden is in a lose-lose situation with the electorate, and is a stubborn boomer. No amount of letting Trump win and get trans people killed will change Biden’s mind.
  I get it, I fucking hate Biden too. But it is going to be a disaster if we allow Trump to get elected, just like it was the first time.
- no, the logical course of action is stopping acceptance of such egregious policies and showing it on the streets. every aristocratic political party has showed us they are not the answer.
- "I'll play with the future of millions to try to manipulate one guy into making an army he isn't in control of do what I want. This is the only logical recourse"
  -🤡
why didn't I think of this!
Because voting isn't a thing in China
Lmao
- has it been working well for you? is that the whatabaoutism i keep hearing about?

us 👏🏻 is 👏🏻 already 👏🏻 fascist

Any point that can be made becomes stupider with the clapping emojis
- i 👏🏻 don't 👏🏻 care 👏🏻

They're both running against fascists, lol.

Third party voters get all the hate.

Management is ordering pizza for the office and sends around a sheet asking what everyone wants.
The third-party voter is the last one to get the sheet.
There are 10 votes for pepperoni and 9 votes for cheese.
The third party voter hates pepperoni, and thinks cheese is a bit boring, so he votes for the anchovies in his heart.
He has wasted his vote since cheese would be vastly preferable to him than pepperoni, and anchovies had no realistic chance of winning. That's why everyone thinks third party voters are ridiculous.
- To make this more realistic:
  Management decides that the pizza choices are: sardines or anchovies.
  The ~~workers~~ employees want pepperoni, but that’s not an option management allows because they are in the fishing business
Voting third party also denies the reality of Fitrst Past the Post, and perpetual and well documented trend and reinforcement of duopolies.
- Panel 2 appears to be a third party voter.
- The duopole is not a law of nature. It is a psychological effect that the DNC and Reps keep pushing, so you never dare to think outside that box. It is the same like with stock market hypes and crashes. Everybody keeps repeating how they think the system inadvertly works, even though it has not to. Everybody that is not a fascist genocidal mass murderer could agree on one third Party and kick the DNC and Reps asses. But thanks to people telling them it is impossible, you believe it to be impossible. You are gaslighting yourself thanks to your political leaders sucessfully gaslighting you.
  This generation of Americans will go down in history with failures like Chamberlain and his appeasement policies. Sucking up to whoever they can, devoid of any will to improve things or demand dignity.
Third party presidential voters get well-deserved ridicule.
Vote third party where it has a chance and where it doesn't be pragmatic.
- Due to the electoral college a massive portion of the electorate, outside of a few key districts that swing whole states, coyld vote third party without changing the result.
  I think about a third of my state who voted Democrat in 2020 could vote 3rd party and blue would still win. There are plenty of 20+ point blue districts.
  So for many: voting third party sends a message, usually about a specific policy.
  Now, outside the presidency though where there's no electoral college discarding eberyone's vote? (Or in those few swing districts?) Different story altogether and I get that. Local elections are usually the only place a chance to win exists for third party candidates.
Aw, sorry, in the future, I'll be sure to give third-party voters plenty of asspats for welcoming fascism.
Yes because unfortunately the voting system of your country is broken. It's not your fault, but you have to deal with the consequences of that.
- Thanks
Any third party that a left leaning person might vote for will only help Republicans to win elections by siphoning votes away from Democrats.
In fact, that's exactly why they exist.
So yeah, they get hate, because they're actively trying to sabotage progressive causes and usher in fascism.
Which Third Party candidate are you endorsing exactly?
- Myself? None. As I have said I am most likely voting Biden if he manages to survive. I supported Uncommitted vote in the primary because that was an opportunity for a concerted and focused effort with a direct policy message.
  There are only a few instances and time windows for shaping the policies that the parties and candidates run on. That was one of those times. The next time will be during the conventions this summer.
  After that we will indeed be stuck with whatever shit is left on the table to vote for in the General election. At that point nonvoters and third party voters alike will indeed have to grapple with the choices and risks they'll make. That is when they'll have to put their money where their mouth is.
  But resigning ourselves to that now is premature, if not actually a tacit support for the status quo.
Voting third party has the same effect on the outcome as not voting. From the last presidential election, there were 24 times more nonvoters than third part voters.
They blame third parties to suppress their ideas, not because of the negligible effect on the outcome.
The 33% of eligible voters who chose not to vote could have swung the 2020 election if they voted.
- Well put: third party voters are often policy focused if not single-issue (and/or extreme). Which paints a target on themselves because the alternative is reaching out to non-voters. And that requires looking into why people don't vote or what depresses voter turnout.
As they absolutely should

Yes, in fact, I will be voting for the leftist candidate that most aligns with my political and social beliefs.

That is not Trump, nor is it Biden.

I know this is a little too complex for liberals like you to understand but hopefully this helps clear it up! BLUE MAGA!!!!!

Blue MAGA
Useful idiot.
- More like a lame troll, from a mentally mediocre... ok, yeah, so you are correct.
That is not Trump, nor is it Biden.
Cool, so you're saying you don't give a fuck how many minorities have to die so you can feel good when you mark the box on your ballot. Great. Left praxis in the flesh.
- You seem pretty content to let countless Gazans die to possibly prevent you facing oppression here.
  The solution is guwtting leftists into supporting genocide, but to get the Democrats to oppose genocide.
Morons gonna moron

Yeah im voting for the leftist running against Trump. Its not Biden.

Cool, so you don't care if fascism wins and minorities are murdered. Unsurprising.
- The system is shit, but you can't force people to participate in it's perpetuation.
  "We will only throw some people into a wood chipper." is not a great platform and I understand those who dont want to be complicit.
  The American political system is not changed in the ballot box.
- fascism and genocide are currently happening
- Okay, but that's the entire reason the "left" in the US is so pointless. They just have to be less shit. They don't even have to try too hard to avoid a genocide. They still win. But as Trump showed, that doesn't weaken the right. The right can just say "Hey, look, the leftists don't do shit! Now if you'd kindly be distracted from our increasing fascism..." Liberals have no recipe against fascism. At best, they just postpone it by one or two election cycles. Like, I'm not saying don't vote for Biden. I'm glad I don't live in the US with your stupid two-party system. I'm glad I don't have to decide whether to vote for everything that's wrong in that country rn, or the worse alternative. If you think voting democrat is the right move, good on you. If you want to convince others from that view, great. Just, don't be a dick about it. That "so you're secretely a fash, hur di hur di hur" shtick isn't gonna do anything but alienate others further.
- Strawman arguments are pretty lame... Something I'd expect from conservatives really
  Maybe you should be mad at Biden for not working to get the votes? Not doing whatever it takes to get those votes is basically giving the election to Trump. Dems should know better, since this "bully them into voting" strategy failed last time too.
Good choice!

Still assmad that people don't want to vote the way you want?

Yes, I remain upset at the prospect of people voting to murder minorities and usher in fascism because it makes them feel good. Sorry that you find fascism such a minor issue, but I understand - people with such flexible morals often do very well for themselves under fascist regimes. :)
- Oh, I wouldn't exactly say I have flexible morals, which is why I vote the way I do. But I'm across the pond, I couldn't give any less of a shit which wanker y'all vote into office next to be quite honest.
  Still, after preaching "just go vote!" for a while (not specifically from you though tbh), I see a lot of "everyone I don't like is a tankie" and "vote for my candidate, you facist!" which doesn't vibe well with "just go vote!" if you don't like their choice of vote. Might feel good to you, but won't help you.
  Hoping people vote against something rarely ever works. And when your candidate doesn't seem to want to give the voters their reason to vote for him, well… he'll have trouble.
Fascism is fine
-you
- Yes, hit the point of my comment right in the middle. Perfectly analyzed.
  Truly, the top minds of reddit in this comment section here.