Pardon me for not finding “vulnerable people need to die for my ideology” very convincing.

I’m a raging leftist but I’m getting tired of "deontologists" telling me they refuse to vote for Biden then telling me how great Xi Jinping is.

I have to caulk it up to young people learning about socialism and communism for the first time, but they're only reading Marx and Lenin.
Like hey guys, they lost pretty hard. Maybe we shouldn't do exactly the same thing and in fact there's decades of work outlining what we should do instead?
- That's the charitable interpretation. The less charitable one is astroturfing aiming to further destabilize the "the west"
- I can understand looking back to them for some useful stuff. "Commieblock" housing served a purpose at the time, for example. They brought huge masses of people into an urban environment with indoor plumbing, electricity, and climate control, which were not a given in their previous living situations. They were meant as an interim solution to last a few decades. For what they set out to do, they were a great success. The only problem was that the followup to better options was never done.
  But the Leninist/Maoists can never leave it at pulling out successes like that. It's almost always "America bad", "Holodomor isn't real", or "Cuba only sucks because of sanctions".
- This is why I pull largely from my half crazed redneck version of leftism. Cant make an authoritarian out of someone who doesnt listen to aurhority outside of his fucken clan. I will listen to cops and be polite because I dont want the dumbfuck gorilla with a gun to shoot me. Makes it harder to spread the ideas of militant unions.
- Fuck man, even Marx and Lenin don't cotton to the common tankie arguments about all non-socialist movements being the same.
- Is what we've been doing in the US working very well? Maybe the democrat party should look at why nobody is fired up to vote for them, even though the alternative is people like trump. It should be very easy to appeal to normal people, but even with cartoonish opposition, the democrats can't bring themselves to much better. All I'm saying is you're asking some tiny minority of the electorate (socialists) to introspect, when you're better off asking the same of the people and parties that actually have power.
Conservatives are just shuffling cards.
You're not a "raging leftist" if you vote for Biden. At least vote PSL or Green
- This post is about you, you idiot.
- What do you think happens if I do that?
- Do you think being incredibly stupid is a prereq for being a raging leftist or something?
- You're not a "raging leftist" if you vote for Biden. At least ~~vote PSL or Green~~ use a brutal domestic terrorism campaign as leverage to blackmail politicians into overturning first-past-the-post as part of a multi-prong strategy that, even as extreme as you are, still includes a pragmatic hedge in the form of a vote for the lesser of two evils
  Of course nobody should be terrorizing anyone. What I’m riffing off of is a perspective someone shared that basically you don’t protest with a vote for a loser, you protest by agitating for systemic change.
  In the meantime while the broken system is in place, you feed it a minimally shitty input.

Some of those who work forces are the same who burn crosses: many that advocate for not voting from a "progressive" point of view are actually the ones who wouldn't be in power if you did. They think it's hilarious when we don't vote, and they love it.

Yep
I used to be alarmed that people were being taken in by this stuff, but I now think the overwhelming majority of people saying it are just shill accounts. For a couple of different reasons, I think the percentage that are actual human accounts that sincerely believe it is extremely small.
I notice they've pivoted to just general nihilism about the US economy and the state of things as of a few weeks ago -- I think they might have concluded, as I did, that expressing this type of viewpoint and doing such a bad job of it and getting unanimously yelled at in the comments was actually having the opposite effect, highlighting to people how important it is to vote and how it absolutely makes a difference.
- Thank you for your perspective. It’s nice to know that you think I couldn’t possibly be a real human being just because I’m a financially impoverished minority in these United States and sick of being told that I need to vote for someone else’s option time and again because it’s the best possible option. Every time the leftist majority makes a decision I want, they don’t look for concessions to bring me in. They just beat me over the head with fearmongering.
  If you want voters, appeal to them. I’m not responsible for the message put out by the party not convincing me.
Things are not great in the US (and worldwide). But I always get pushback when I encourage people to vote and remind them that this is not North Korea or Russia, your vote still actually matters! Whoever you are, you can help prevent your country's slide into fascism...
Killing in the name of
- I wonder how many get this reference.
But voting only determines which face of aristocracy is in power?
If someone unacceptable wins, it gets fiat discarded.
Not even hypothetical. Remember that time a bland vaguely well intentioned nerd won an election against the grandson of the guy who was gonna be German ambassador in the business plot government, and they just threw the whole election out and gave it to the third generation fascist oligarch guy?
Do real action, and while theres nothing wrong with spending five minutes to vote, remember it is not politics and won't save you, get you infrastructure, or stop a bullshit war. Not ever.
- it is not politics and won't save you, get you infrastructure, or stop a bullshit war. Not ever.
  --
  Not ever.
- If Al Gore had won Florida outright, there'd be no recount, no Brookes Brothers riot, no 5-4 decision cancelling democracy, and quite possibly no September 11th attacks. Plus eight extra years of giving a shit about climate change instead of openly funneling no-bid contracts to a third-gen oligarch's decrepit oil-baron vice president.
  All of that evil came from one fucking state being within 500 votes. A situation caused by inane "douche v turd" denial that politics matter, god dammit.
- That shit was only possible thanks to "both sides" horseshit keeping turnout low and results close.
  You are part of the problem.
“I don’t think poor minorities who are tired of picking ‘the least evil option’ exist.”
Well you can kindly go fuck yourself.
- Valid emotions behind a stupid decision don't make it less stupid.

I guess I’ll say it for the record but Kris Mayes is a woman.

Hard to believe I had to scroll down so far for this. I heard HER on NPR this morning, did a doubletake when reading the post. Thank you. Is it surprising it's a woman protecting women from the dictates of long-dead ignorant men? No, although sadly it's not a given. Is it surprising an AG is assumed to be male? Even by a person who supports what they do? Just shows how far we have yet to go.
- "Sadly" it's not a given?
  Please tell me you don't mean to imply that protecting women from the dictates of long-dead ignorant men is only good if a woman is doing it?
What's wrong with that??
- Nothing's wrong with it, the post just said "the man preventing people from being punished", emphasis mine.

Not to mention that the less people think their votes are worth, the more every individual vote is actually mean.

If you have two elections, one with a 40% turnout and one with an 80% turnout, in the one where 40% of people voted, each voter was as important as two voters in the 80% one.

- Is this some kind of new annoying bot? I refuse to believe a real person could be this stupid.
- I mean the fewer people vote, the more power those who do vote end up having.
  Your country's youth didn't vote? Enjoy the regressive concervatives that the old people elected taking away minority rights, reproductive rights, LGBT rights.
- Impactful.

Been arguing with a tankie about this, decided to stop after they said a civil war and another genocide was preferable to voting for Biden because he supports Israel. Yeah ok bud

Yeah see, I don’t care for genocide. Genocide is not very cash money at all. So, see, in opposition to genocide, I’m gonna sit over here have a preference for a different not cash money genocide, you know, not really but yeah. Oh, and I’ve read accounts of war. I can handle it, I’m well read on the topic. Blood, guts, spit, and ass aren’t that scary. With all of my experience reading about war, I’m practically a shell shocked WWI vet anyway, hehe.
- Jesse, what the fuck are you talking about?
- Don't worry I understood your comment was satire but honestly it's not far off from the tankie I was arguing with.
As if they would be there in the frontlines when shit hits the fan. It shows very clearly they don't risk much (and lack the most basic level of empathy) if they really think Trump and Biden are the same. Ask our trans comrades. Or homeless people. Or journalists.
In abstention, they just found a way of feeling good about doing nothing at all. Voting is literally the least you could do and they won't do even that.

This just emphasizes to me that every vote matters. Sure, both parties are terrible and the chance of a third party making any headway, nevermind winning an election is, at best, unlikely.

But not voting is being complicit in what comes next. Good or bad, you're okay with whatever happens.

Harm reduction through voting is surreal, but it's required at this point. Don't be a filthy fucking collaborator, go vote.

They are both imperfect but only one is legitimately terrible. I'm actually pretty tired of everyone feeling the need to qualify this sentiment, as if the Democrats haven't been behind basically every bit of progress in the US going back a century or more.
- It's like someone who keeps pointing out "Yeah, but we're also running low on food!" on an spacecraft that is almost out of air.
  True, these are both problems, but one is a MUCH bigger immediate threat and needs to be solved before we can spend time on the other, and doing nothing simply isn't the correct option.
- 50 years or more
  Not that I'm disagreeing with your thesis as applied to the modern day, but pre-Lyndon Johnson, the Democrats were the racist party. There was a massive sea change during the era of Nixon, when the Democrats decided after quite a bit of heated internal debate that they couldn't possibly stomach depending on the support of the segregationists, whatever the cost, and the Southern Strategy scooped all the for real lynch-mob enthusiasts all up for Nixon. Except for Carter's brief flirtation with actual human decency, which the US isn't okay with for some reason, the Democrats got accustomed to losing elections for quite a while, until Clinton decided to make a pact with the neoliberal bastards since all the actual progressives were so ground down into not-voting-land that they weren't even worth appealing to anymore. That worked and that set the tone which has continued to the modern day of slight steady progress under Democrats versus absolute naked fascism under the Republicans (accelerating year by year to its current breakneck pace.)
  Side note, if you want to have your heart broke a little bit, read Hubert Humphrey's speech at the DNC in NINETEEN FUCKING FORTY EIGHT, where he calls out the Democratic party for their acceptance of racism:
  My friends, to those who say that we are rushing this issue of civil rights, I say to them we are 172 years late. To those who say that this civil-rights program is an infringement on states’ rights, I say this: The time has arrived in America for the Democratic Party to get out of the shadow of states' rights and to walk forthrightly into the bright sunshine of human rights.
  He was still around in 1968, in the literal bloody battle, inside and outside the convention hall, for what the Democrats were going to be. They never fulfilled their promise completely, and they still haven't, and that year it cost them the presidency, just like it did in 2016.
  I say this 1,000% agreeing that Biden has represented a big step forward and accomplished some genuine impressive things, and that voting for him in November is an affirmative good thing and not just a way to prevent Trump's end of the world. But the Democrats had to be dragged kicking and screaming by their progressive wing into doing good things, just as they have to be now on Israel among some other issues.
  The difference is that they can be dragged into good things, which is enough. And they've done pretty much all of the progress the country has made since 1976; I'll fully agree with you there.
- A hundred years ago the Republicans were still ok and the dems were well, pretty bad. Reminder that by 1924 the last Democratic president was fucking Wilson, ya know the man who showed birth of a nation at the whitehouse. It wouldnt be until FDR that the Democrats started to not be fucken horrible.
You need a different voting system for third parties to be viable
- I agree. The problem is getting a new voting system to be implemented. Neither of the two parties want third parties to get a decent shot at dethroning them, so the two parties right now, are not going to willingly go for a new voting system since the current one ensures that they only have one rival during elections.
  It doesn't benefit either party, so neither is going to agree to change it.
- Yes ok but still…
Wasn't sure at first but you brought me home safe in the second half

2.4 MILLION PEOPLE.... Why the fuck is every goddamn election 50/50!? Why the hell is it always the fucking razors edge!?

I'm no math guy but I feel like statistically it shouldn't be possible for almost every goddamn election to be 50/50.... 49/51... For fucks sake...

It didn't used to be that way. Big blowouts used to be common.
I think it's a result of the GOP holding on to electoral legitimacy purely through electoral tricks which are expensive / criminal to a pretty large degree, since except for a little violent minority, almost all of the country has moved on from supporting them or anything they stand for. They don't want to expend more money or risk than is needed, so they'll do more or less the minimum that seems like it'll let them hold on to power. Even that isn't really working that well anymore, and so their grip is slipping, and with Trump now running the show and demolishing the RNC's effectiveness just as thoroughly as he does everything else he touches, all bets are off for the upcoming election.
I think they're planning to move to simple explicit violence during this election, since that's all that is left if they want to avoid defeat, but you can't completely write off how effective their propaganda is at convincing people.
- The propaganda has always been my gripe. I definitely blame people for having such hate in their hearts that it works on them, but it's the propagandists that twist reality in a way that make it "logical" for the average voter to believe their candidate is the "one who can save us."
  I don't believe my father is that hateful, but boy did Fox News really get to him as far as "evil Democrats." His arguments are always economic, he doesn't care one way or the other about trans issues, immigration, etc, but he'll eat up anything Fox has to say about "whales dying due to wind powered generators."
- In Arizona it's simple. The Democrats are rising and the Republicans are falling. If the Arizona State Republicans don't make a substantive change it will go back to blowouts, just in favor of Democrats instead.
In Arizona it's because the Democrats are rising. Elections used to be blowouts for Republicans.
If it's a huge Democratic turn out in year X, then there's going to be a lot of Dem voters that say "well, my vote doesn't really matter so why bother" in year X+1. And vice versa.
So the turnout is going to edge closer and closer to equilibrium over time.
It's because it's all fake and designed to make you think you have a chance and that things are decided fairly. Your TV isn't cheap because it's subsidized by ads from whatever media company. It's cheap because the media keeping you in line is the most cost effective tool they can come up with. Prices are determined by how much you're pacified by the product rather than "market forces".

Anyone who genuinely believes that voting doesn't matter should ask themselves why conservatives ALWAYS make sure to vote, come hell or high water.

They're brainwashed into believing they're affecting something. The outcomes are decided by the powerful who are getting them no matter what numbers they show you with the TVs that are allegedly subsidized by ads rather than how much they decide control over your media exposure is worth.
- go home, putin worshipping comrade.

The trolley problem is usually a useful tool and nothing more, but it's actually a great analogy for voting. You have two choices. Let the trolley continue or change its path. You may have different reasons for your choices, but those are the only two real choices. You can leave a note on the lever expressing your displeasure, but it still doesn't get pulled. Not pulling it is as much a choice as pulling it. You're a participant either way.
- You're a participant on the same ethical extent as a jigsaw killer victim. Someone else making fucked up circumstances around you doesn't morally implicate you for anything.
- Except there's not really a correlation between me pulling the lever in the voting booth and something happening.
  Even if I vote as hard as I can the more bad thing can still happen because our system has big problems.
  When people say "both sides are the same" they're coming from a point of frustration with the system in general.
  Signed,
  An anarchist who's had to pull the lever for a capitalist in every election he's ever voted in.
- You have more than two choices. Stop giving false information.
Well put
It's just like the trolley problem. The stakes are made up and your decision might cause some discussion on the Internet. The real outcomes are decided by people with power and everything you see in media is a puppet show.
- lol. you're either completely delusional, or a very obvious Russian puppet.

It's like the people who try to run from the cops and then once they get caught and asked why they did it, they say "because I didn't want to go to jail." My bro you have articulated the problem and I get it, but the solution you have chosen is going to make it quite a lot worse.
Yeah because it means you actually think votes have some correlation with outcomes. Pretty dang stupid.

That's a very strong statement, respect

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Attorney General can't overrule the Supreme Court anyways, so what difference does it make?
- He decides which cases are prosecuted. He doesn’t have to overrule them if he never presses charges when someone is arrested for this.

Problem is even if the attorney general doesn't prosecute, local courts can. We need votes for local elections THE MOST, so please vote for every small thing.

it'd be cool if we could like vote for shit. But like, also fix the fucking voting system.

Would like to see more talk about that alongside voting itself. People seem too content with the shitty system we have. And i get it, it's a kill or be killed world out there or whatever the fuck, but like, we should have standards also.

Currently our standard is "literally fucking doing the bare minimum possible" and i honestly just cant fucking take this shit seriously anymore.

FPP is the problem with the US. And electoral colleges. And Gerrymandering the vote. Electoral oversight needs to be non-partisan. So much needs to change
- Liberals not voting is the problem with the US. We sure as fuck aren't getting national ranked choice voting out of the party of fascism. We aren't getting any Democrat favored legislation without a clear majority. Not a 'well the VP can be the tiebreaker in the senate if the 2 right leaning Democrats agree to it' majority. Not even a 'well as long as Joe Lieberman goes along we can break the filibuster' majority is good enough.
  Republicans need to be made utterly unelectable before a left leaning party can be viable.
- My favorite way to make conservatives start questioning the electoral college is asking them which state had the most votes for Trump.
- yeah, there's a lot between us and voting, and given the current state of technology, it doesn't exactly need to exist.
Maine and Alaska have ranked choice (also called instant runoff) now. Nevada is on track to also go this way. Change is slow, but it has started.
- thats cool. Can't wait till it makes it way to the rest of the states, and federal government, at this rate it definitely won't take a half century.

If you really absolutely will not vote for moderates, at least vote for leninist-marxist peoples front of Arizona or something. There's a politican somewhere who will see that 0.15% and think "that could make or brake my campaign, how can I win them over?"

They may ask that, but the answer is "no, appealing to the 0.15% of marxist-leninist voters would lose me 1% of my voter base"
PSL is the usual party Marxist-Leninists push for.
- PSL
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_Super_League ?

the “Voting is Not Harm Reduction” article is possibly the most covert insidious thing that’s happened to online political discourse since 2019.

somehow, it’s managed to SEO weasel its way on top of every other article since the dawn of the internet for the search terms “voting harm reduction” and similar. and not just once, but reposted to every corner of the internet imaginable. literally try it now, if you set your google search to find articles before February 5, 2020, you will see inumerable articles with diversity of positions on the topic. after that? literally just the same article reposted and crosslisted, with the occasional reddit/twitter/tumblr comment thread.

it’s not even a bad article per se, it’s just indecently self-contradictory as OOP says, admitting at the beginning that small rights can be preserved by engaging in voting, and then pulling a 180 and accusing those who vote of perpetuating white supremacy.

like i get it, harm reduction has a specific meaning originating in addiction treatment. but for heavens sake, this flub of language doesn’t mean you should throw away one of the only miniscule rights the oppressor class has granted you to help your neighbors.

editing to add this comment thread and article which i think give helpful insight.

The anti harm-reduction crowd:
- that’s how it feels fr sometimes :(
Almost as if someone was trying to specifically engineer that type of result
I'm gonna start my own little Alex Jones show where I'm convinced everything is a conspiracy
- obviously i have no proof, but if presented with further evidence of conspiracy i wouldn’t doubt it. probably not even the author’s fault, but more of an “unwitting pawn” situation.
  end point, the material consequences of this article being pervasive is an advantage to conservative power, moreso than it is to indigenous people.
- Honestly, this kinda shit probably wouldn't be that difficult to pull on the other side.
  Spin up some bigoted rightwing shithead as a persona to get a conservative audience, then manipulate them to undermine the right's goals. They're already so primed to fall for bullshit conspiracy theories and magical thinking they'd probably be pretty easy to manipulate.

Letting people die for your ideology is easy. Fight for your ideology if it's worth dieing over.

My ideology is that life is an unreasonable, unnecessary, and undesirable burden, and dying for it is free real estate.
- To fall asleep I need white noise to distract me Otherwise I have to listen to me think Otherwise I pace around, hold my breath, let it out Sit on the couch and think about How living's just a promise that I made
  -Better Oblivion Community Center

Your voting system is so fucked. Like voting should be something that people like to do. I want to vote for people that align with my values the most. But no, you have to be strategic and choose the lesser evil to not accidentally end up with fucking fsscists like Trump again. It's fucked. Still tho, please prevent Trump.

We already know that the problem is First Past The Post (FPTP) voting. Literally everyone qualified to hold office in the USA knows it. But would you vote for someone who's incompetent at best, making things only slightly worse for 4 years?
Every election, the answer is a resounding yes. Vote for the lesser evil, and then we'll rely entirely on direct action between elections, like strikes.
Then the lesser evils shut down a badly needed rail strike, at a time when that could have been the start of something big.
So you tell me what you'd do, I'm genuinely curious.
Even in countries where it's undoubtedly a LOT better like Germany, I vote purely strategically. No super small parties that won't make it into parliament cause that vote would be wasted. Stuff like that. And I would absolutely vote for the conservatives to prevent the fascists. Basically, don't take it for granted and try to get the most out of it every time.
non-US people try not to blame US people for their own oppression challenge (impossible) (it happens every thread)
This is like a teenager getting all upset that the family can't go on a trip because money is tight and saying it's not faaaaaaaaaiiir.
Yes, powerful people are trying to do evil with the levers of government. There are people who wake up all day every day and try to prevent them, or to make good things happen anyway, with varying levels of success. Just getting all whiny about it because everything's not automatic or already fixed for you, and you have to either do what you can within the system or work for change outside the system or else get used to things being shitty (and with Trump maybe get exponentially worse), shows a lack of understanding of how the world works.
- What the fuck arenyou even talking about lol
  Did an LLM write this?

I ran into someone like this on Lemmy just yesterday. They said that "we" deserve to suffer if Trump gets elected. I said that I was guessing they weren't queer or a person of color. They were not. Therefore they were not part of "we." 'Innocent people that are definitely not me deserve to suffer so that America gets what it deserves' is a really fucking galling attitude.

Paraphrasing Contrapoints: you only get to 'watch the world burn' when you have the privilege of not being on fire.

Got banned from reddit r/latestagecapitalism for trying to say this

rightfully so, you ppl shouldn't vote for Geocide Joe under any circumstances
- Explain why taking the principled stance is worth risking Trump enacting Project 2025.
  I would agree with you if the Republican candidate was more moderate, but we're talking about someone who wants to make the shitty two party system a hellish one party system
- Go fuck yourself russian bot.
- Bunch of you clowns on lemmy these days. Anti-vote, anti-Biden, anti-democrat. A concerted effort slinging made up crap like “genocide Joe” and other extreme hyperobole equating voting dem, or voting at all, as some sort of support for Israel’s actions.
  None of you ever mention trump basically stating he’s going to give Israel free rein to wipe out hamas/palestine, hand Ukraine to the Russians, undermine NATO and fellate dictators everywhere, much less spare no effort to make himself a permanent dictator here in the US.
  But hey, don’t vote Biden, amirite?
  Where are you all brigading from anyway? Hexbear?
- Right because white power trump is so innocent from doing exactly that on home soil.
- Trump is a bigger genocidal maniac than Joe will ever be.
- You realize that just makes Trump an inevitability right?
- The only tangible difference between a Biden presidency and a trump presidency is that LGBT folks and minorities will have a much, much worse time under Trump, but fuck them gays, right? Better to let them die in jail than vote for the guy that won't throw them in jail
- Who should they vote for then that realistically keeps trump out of office?

I legit thought this wasn't satire until you started talking about abortion

280*

I like how the last one called Kris Mates a man.

Kris is typically a male name, and they probably just rolled with that. Not really anything there beyond that lol
Just let them have that sense of moral high ground they so crave.

Usually when I read “both sides are the same”, it’s a blue conservative like you trying to make people critical of the Democratic party seem unreasonable.

Both sides are capitalist and conservative, but there are differences for sure. Dont you want more differences?

If you wanna really shut up those people bitching from the sidelines, the best way to do so is to put them in the game! Force them to show us how to do things since it’s so easy and they have it all figured out.

Switching away from first past the post voting allows people to vote for who represents them best while still counting their vote against those they dont want to win. Just search for videos on FPTP voting if you want an explanation on how and why the spoiler effect exists.

Electoral reform is possible in each individual state (for now), we dont need federal reform! Maine and Alaska have already passed electoral reform.

Republicans are moving to make alternative electoral systems illegal in their states. Why would you want to use the same voting system republicans prefer?

More political parties means a higher percentage of the population is representedby their choices in the voting booth. More people involved in the electoral process, more people engaged.

Its a win win win all around for not just the people, but also for the democratic party. More people voting means more democratic votes. The numbers dont lie. So what’s the hold up blue states?

You believe it’s critical to vote for the democrats to beat the Republicans, thus you should 100% be fully invested in passing electoral reform in your state.

Electoral reform needs to be the number one priority for every democrat. This is a existential threat to our nation, so we must use EVERY tool at our disposal. No more waiting. This especially goes for those in blue states.

Consider starting a campaign to change how we vote in your own state! Force our representatives to compete with fresh outside ideas. We deserve the best representation, not excuses.

Fascinating. Your account actually had already caught my attention a little bit, previous to this -- are you open to me explaining why, even if it'll be a little bit unfair accusation?
Usually when I read “both sides are the same”, it’s a blue conservative like you trying to make people critical of the Democratic party seem unreasonable.
Right out of the gate, you've elected a strawman. I'm actually fine with criticism of the Democratic party; I've done some of it lower down in this thread, and elsewhere I compared the Biden state department to Nazis because of what they're enabling in Gaza. Criticism sounds great.
If you want to disagree with my post and argue that voting is a bad idea, please be honest and do so explicitly; I think it will not be a popular view.
If you want to tell me most of the Democrats are bad or that reforming the voting system is a good idea, I'm all for it and would probably agree with you.
If you want to construct a little edifice where you're saying those sensible things while cunningly pretending that I'm saying the opposite of those sensible things when I'm not, I'm going to assume you're in this conversation for a dishonest reason. So please don't do that. Sounds fair, no?
I'm a New Zealander. We switched from FPP to MMP in the 90s. Definitely agree that FPP is the biggest problem you have. It is the worst voting system

I can imagine that there would be less reason for many to vote when there are only two options to vote for. What would it take for USA to implement a multi party system like many of the other democraties in the world?

Basically a complete teardown and overhaul of the system. The biggest problem is that seats in congress are not proportioned representationally. For example, in the UK, if a particular party receives 5% of the vote, then roughly 5% of the seats in the House of Commons are assigned to members appointed by that party. In the US, if a party receives 5% of the vote, they get nothing. Additionally, the US is further hampered by the fact that we elect our president directly instead of going with a prime minister approach, where the minister is appointed by the party or party coalition that won the election. Because of this, there is a lot of pressure placed on voters in every election to vote for the candidate they hate the least, since if they don't, there's a good chance that the candidate they hate the most will become president.
If we had a representational vote, on the other hand, people could feel free to vote for whichever party most suited their political tastes, knowing that they will have a chance at being represented in the government that follows the election. Often times, a single party doesn't win enough votes to have a majority in governments like this, so they have to cooperate with other parties to form a coalition government. In situations such as these, sometimes small parties can play a pivotal role. For example, in the 2017 UK general election, the number of seats needed to secure a majority was 326 (650 seats total, need more than 50%), but the Conservatives only managed to get 318 seats. They were able to team up with the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP), however, who had gotten 10 seats in the election to form a Conservative-DUP coalition government. So the people who voted for DUP in that election got some extra concessions from the new government because the Conservatives needed them.
Because the US system is an all-or-nothing affair, where we are concerned only with someone winning a plurality rather than a majority of the votes, it necessarily will degrade into a 2-party system over time no matter how many parties you start with. It's just a mathematical reality. For example, imagine you have 6 parties, and the vote breakdown is as follows:
Party A: 38% of the vote
Party B: 32% of the vote
Party C: 12% of the vote
Party D: 11% of the vote
Party E: 5% of the vote
Party F: 2% of the vote
In this situation, voters would quickly realize that party F doesn't have a chance to win going forward. So they're more likely to vote for a party that doesn't align as well with their politics, but that actually has a chance of winning in future elections. Maybe they give their votes to Party C, for example. Over time, this effect is carried out again and again, and the numbers of people who vote for the two biggest parties reach a sort of equilibrium, with all of the other parties dying out or having next to no votes. Because the people voting for Party F get nothing if their candidate loses, they are heavily incentivized to settle. So, in effect, our current political situation is a result of the systems we chose, and their effect on game theory.

The lack of snide comments about the US educational system is deeply disturbing.

1,254,809 - 1,254,529 = 280

Where's the white people twitter?

Speaking personally as a brit i'm not going to comment on whatevers going on with the american election but in the case of britain at least im absolutely not going to be voting for Keir Starmer since most of the left neoliberals in this country telling me i have to swallow my pride and vote for the most right wing and second worst (to his "credit", unlike Tony Blair, he doesnt have the blood of a million iraqis on his hands, only 30,000 palestinians) party leader labour's had in recent memory were the exact same people 5 years ago saying they couldnt in good faith vote for the most far left, trans positive labour leader in decades because he criticised Israel which led to the largest conservative majority in years.

Under Sir Kid Starver, Labour stopped members from voting for a ceasefire right at the start of the Palestinian genocide, members have repeatedly been expelled over bogus antisemitism charges, starmerite labour's trying to push to have the NHS privatised, the party has pivoted so far to the right that you have promiment members saying “Margaret Thatcher was a visionary leader for the U.K; no doubt about it", they've proposed policies to segregate trans people out of single sex NHS hospital wards and those are just the things from the last few months or so that i remember off the top of my head.

I'm going to vote for the Greens instead.

I'm not even from the US: Check
Claim of LGBTQ identity: Check
Lots of the content posted by the user is just generically-relatable memes: Check
Account was recently created: Check
Emotional framing ("left neoliberals in this country telling me i have to swallow my pride and vote for"): Check
I actually guessed that most of those would be true, and the point of view that the message would express, the instant I read "Speaking personally as a brit" and before I expanded the message.
- I didn't know the US had a monopoly on democracy.
  Also saying they 'claim' lgbtq identity is inherently dehumanizing. Fuck you.
  How about you reply to the actual comment instead of attacking the posters character.
  Also your account is only 3 months old and you're complaining that their account is newly created? Fuck offffff
- Hey you can fuck off.
  This person has an older account than you and seems less like a shill from their post history than you. Calling someone’s identity into question because they oppose your political views is also a trash move.
  Stop trying to bad jacket people and be normal.
- At no point was in weighing on talking about the US, I was talking about the UK. I even said "as a brit i’m not going to comment on whatevers going on with the american election"
  I'm not "claiming" my queerness or some shit, i live it and i face the consequences of living it
  yes, most of my posts are in the garfieldist subreddit which i made because i like garfield and the femcel_posting sub for transfems because I'm a transfem and i find the memes funny, sorry that i have a personality and other interests that arent just politics
  my account is literally almost three times older than yours
  the thing you posted was far more emotive than mine and literally accuses anyone who doesnt want to vote for an accomplice to genocide of saying "vulnerable people should die for my ideology" (frankly i dont care which people vote for but to say anyone protesting bidens complicity in the bombing of gaza just want to kill gay people or whatever while the democratic party tells them they just have to accept that "palestinians should die for our ideology" so that biden can win the election is disgusting), but because i very briefly expressed in just one sentence a fraction of the anger i feel at the (entirely cis) starmerite talking head harpies in this country who supported the tory majority into power so that we've had five years of uncontested rule by them and who arent affected in the slightest by the institutionialised transphobia of the conservative and labour parties yet expect me to come happily to vote for the man who entirely bulldosed the most progressive party britain has ever had and is directly calling for me and people like me to be segregated out of our crumbling healthcare service suddenly im the one being emotional or whatever?
  im not even refusing to vote, im just voting for a different party which isnt actively trying to screw me over, why would i ever vote for Sir Keir "trans rights can’t override women’s rights" Starmer?
Don't you have proportional representation over there and then the House decides the PM? Voting for a third party has a non-zero chance of being useful. Go for it, why not?
Americans voting for a third party under FPTP may as well just throw their ballot in the trash. Same difference.

I've got some "they're both capitalism, so it's all the same". News flash: we have regulated capitalism. The choice is between regulated capitalism or the GOP desire of free for all capitalism.

Here's some "It's a black box running propriety software with a backdoor that'll fuck us all regardless of of our decisions about whether to interact with it."
In 2/3 of the US it's still legal to pay someone $7 an hour, and has been since 2008 across multiple Democratic and Republican administrations.
It really does suck that both parties are rabidly capitalist.
- Thank you for being exhibit A.
  News flash: Minimum wage is by definition an example of regulated capitalism.
  Want it to move up? Then move the overton window, by telling the free for all side that they have no chance of winning.
- Republicans want it to be lower.
  "Stop letting assholes actively make things worse" is a reason to vote. You can choose less evil. Why the fuck wouldn't you.

Just remember there are people Mango who respond to every single post on the entire thread but can't handle reacting to a single counter argument to their ideas. That's why you need to vote, and if you are Mango and you try to over analyze this post and can't even see something hitting you in the face your vote wouldn't help me achieve my interests anyway. If you vote, keep doing what you are doing.

not twitter (tumblr)

no evidence that any of these people are white? advocates a position that protects the interests of POC?

why is this posted here? this is such a useful and well formed post but i have this community blocked and only found this thru some modlog drama. whatever lol. saving this for later reposting somewhere more relavant. thanks for sharing OP. :)

...should white people not be advocating positions that protect the interests of people of color???

votes 3rd party

I voted 3rd party as a Green voter last presidential election, and when I looked at the actual numbers I saw that lately we have been outnumbered by the Libertarian voters as well... so, if someone is ~~advocating~~ arguing* that 3rd party voters take away votes from the two major parties then I think it seems important that that ideology would also be applied to Libertarians. I wonder if Democrat voters really think that the most hardcore small-government, pro-gun voters are also going to cast a vote for them if they were compelled to cast a vote of one of the two major parties instead of their 3rd party?
[edit] for clarity of communication
- You seem to be confusing a social responsibility to vote for a viable candidate (which this thread is referring to) with advocating for a compulsory two party system (which is a terrible idea)
- There it is again: "Democrat voters."
  Do you know why that's a notable thing to me that I'm bringing it up, I wonder?

Agreed, it's never okay to sacrifice the unborn for political reasons.

Of course people should vote where it's working. The argument on the federal level is that it's not working. It's not harm reduction because the federal Democrats are too cowardly or too compromised to enforce protective laws and the Constitution as evidenced by reality.

It's really "relative" harm reduction because conservatives are literally trying to conduct harm amplification
- Only it's still not. The Democrats aren't willing to stop the state level Republicans. So they can just do whatever they want. The GOP would need to win the Senate and Presidency in addition to holding the House to make it actually worse. And at that point it's mathematically unlikely the Democrats would have held the presidency anyways.

I vote, but I can't really pretend that it accomplishes much.

We hand Democrats a majority and all they do with it is find a way to spend another half trillion on war that wasn't budgeted. When I point out that perhaps it'd be good if we didn't neglect our own people's needs, people call me a traitor or a Russian shill. (Neither of which are true.)

And for those trumpeting the AZ decision here, go look at Idaho, where abortion was criminalized and they got away with it. In a year 2/3 of the states will have similar laws just like in 2/3 of the states it's still legal to pay someone $7 an hour.

That is what people are talking about when they say voting doesn't matter, because if you're poor or working class, there is no effective difference between the two ruling parties.

If only there was a meme that specifically debunked this argument.
I actually agree with you about the behavior of electing "Democrats" in the abstract; the Hillary Clintons and Nancy Pelosis of the party have been selling out the working class for enough decades in a row now that it's easy to become disillusioned. But Biden's record is actually pretty far above the norm for Democrats. And, in this specific election, trying to apply this logic is like trying to fistfight the firefighters who are trying to put your house out, because you heard they misappropriated some of their funding last year.
I'm completely mystified by how you can look at an example where a 280 vote margin led to an attorney general who refuses to prosecute people in her state over a tyrannical law, and then go: "no, but see - voting doesn't matter!"
I mean, there's ignorance, and then there's willful stupidity.
- It's easy.
  Go look at what happened with Idaho. It's a really, really bad example.
And how does Idaho vote exactly? Is it different than OR, WA, CO, CA? Do you think the way these states vote might have something to do with it? You're disproving your own point.

Fucking kill me now hoo lee dude. It's the same every time I'm so joever this shit. Take me off the wild ride, take me out of the fucking time loop. Is there a way to like block every single "voting advocacy" post, or something? I don't necessarily care to block users or communities but hoo lee shit it's like a drill plunged deep into my cortical nerves. It's like I'm trapped in groundhog's day but then it's just inane bitching about how everyone is a CCP or russian shill and a vote for biden is a vote for democracy, and a vote for anyone else is a vote for trump and fascism. And ummm errmmmm ackshually how maybe the democratic party should nut up and go full communism and wouldn't it be nice if I had a free pony, actually electoralism and reformism sucks because nihilism. Nobody has heard of dual power. Kill me please, kill me with hammers.

Never any discussion of, oh, are you in a district that is going to vote blue almost inevitably? Maybe a protest vote makes sense. What should you do in a swing state? What could you do in other cases? What are suitable times for protests or local advocacy, what are potential local advocacy groups? Any discussion on alternative voting systems, advocacy for those systems, etc. Nope, fuck that shit, easier just to bitch and moan. I'm doing it right now, because it's so easy, actually. Exhausting. Hoo lee. Please stop feeding the mao zedong CCP trolls, if that's what you think they are. Publically shaming their stupidity is not a good strategy. If they are stupid, which they are, then it will be self-evident to onlookers, you don't have to coddle the fence and in the process end up feeding the trolls more and engaging in unproductive schlock conversations about unproductive things. That's giving them what they want.

I have a gift for you. I don't necessarily disagree with the idea that jawing about it online is a waste of time, but also, with the energy devoted to this post you could have signed up with them. I also scattered some links to some other organizations and etc somewhere down in the threads.
- All the links going from that link just go to donations. There's no actual "sign up" option, there's no organization for protests or local city council activism or anything. I am not overly impressed with that link.

I would say there is some reason to vote in the UK because even if shitty politicians are guaranteed to win, not having an overwhelming majority of the vote still means the parties need to at least put up a façade/not go all in on shitty beliefs, because there's still the threat that people won't vote for them if they go too far.
But the UK seems to have even less of a dichotomy between the 2 major parties than the US, so it's pretty fucked... the labour party is supposed to be the "leftist"/populist party, but they're pretty much indistinguishable from the tories most of the time if not all of the time it feels like. So I completely get why the British would feel completely and utterly hopeless even compared to Americans

Another day, another dem lying and saying anyone who won't vote for Biden "isn't voting."

That right there, that's fascist behavior.

“I’ll be a dictator in day one” and “they’re poisoning our blood” seems a little more fascist to me.
- "My candidate is less fascist" isn't the flex you think it is.
  Fascism is fascism, just cause one has a pretty bow doesn't mean they won't come after you next.
You don't have to vote for Biden. In the primaries, vote for whoever you actually like. In the general, vote for the Democrats' candidate (however flawed they may be). In neither case are you obligated to frame it as voting for Biden as an individual.
- Continuing to support democrats as they shuffle further and further right only ensures that the American Overton window marches further and further right.
  You're supporting Biden in genocide because he isn't doing it here, but that old poem rings true here - you keep making excuses for them and they'll keep going after the "others" until there's nobody to have your back.

Oh look. It's time for another round of "the ethically bankrupt decisions of the powerful people in the world are your fault because voting is real."

It must be all the lead poisoning making people so shallow minded as to believe the toys they're sold and occupied with are anything but a means to keep them in line and shift blame. Your cheap TV tells you what they want you to think and exists for that. Voting is a black box that exists to convince you that there's a chance you can improve outcomes rather than just serve the rich. Political faces are literally only faces.

Change my mind. Prove to me that voting is actually implemented and a functional interaction with the world. Hint: Some words on my screen will be about as meaningful as a Harry Potter book at best. I see voting to be about as real of an attempt at achieving something as praying. It's a way to convince yourself your supposedly good intentions will have any sway over reality.

I need something better than faith.

Literally just read the meme you're responding to... Lol
- He's not the only one
  It's almost as if they have a little script of a handful of arguments that they like to switch among, and aren't actually organically reading the content and having organic thoughts that they feel like sharing in response, so it sometimes doesn't register with them if one of the things on their list has some specific connection with the meme they're responding to. Result, they don't react differently or even acknowledge the connection, they just say the thing on their list.
  Almost as if
- Oh you mean the thing that's completely made up by rich people to make me think I could have changed something so I'm less inclined to hunt down the people actually responsible? Yeah I'm convinced. /s
Your cheap TV tells you
Bro your talking points are like 15 years out of date
Prove to me that voting is actually implemented and a functional interaction with the world
Abortion
- As if GAG topics aren't literally designed to keep you all busy arguing with each other.
  Congrats on thinking you're clever and that a word on my screen is proof of anything.

If you feel like your vote is useless because both choices are near the same level of bad (even if one of them is somewhat less bad,) consider voting for Literally Anybody Else. Look him up, he's pretty based (even though he does have one or two bad ideas.)

If you feel like your vote is useless because both choices are not even remotely close to even the same ballpark of the same level of bad but Biden's still pretty far from what you want, consider joining Bernie Sanders's activist organization, instead of trying to bring Trump to power through inaction while cloaking yourself in a tissue-thin veneer of bullshit to justify your Trump-enablement as a good thing somehow.
- Dawg I'm not trying to bring Trump to power. I'm trying to send a message that we're not going to keep playing the game of the two parties putting forth their worst candidates and that if they're not going to represent us, we can and will replace them.
  I'm more interested in the long-term game of breaking down the two-party dichotomy (though this doesn't directly do that) and all the political hatred it has enabled for many years which is only getting worse as time goes on. I consider this a higher priority than the short-term risk of Trump maybe getting into office for a single term more if there are more liberals that hold this sentiment than conservatives.
  Also for the record, when I said "because both choices are near the same level of bad," I was addressing the sentiment in the literature being tweeted about, not how I actually feel. Of course Biden is significantly less bad than Trump.
I voted Williamson over Biden in the primary this year.
I wish all of the "uncommitteds" had done the same. It sucks that there's a candidate who actually supports universal health care, living wages, and maybe not spending all of our money on war (and genocide)... and that candidate will get zero delegates.

Lots of things work this way. You can play on a sports team and not bring too much to the table, and yet your team will win anyway. And yet, if everyone takes that attitude, then the team loses.
In fact, I would say that almost any real progress in the world depends on shared effort where each individual person who's part of it isn't individually critical to the outcome. Not wanting to take part in that kind of thing even when it's mind-bogglingly trivial (as voting is) is going to exclude you from the majority of good things you can do.

This message reached 2000 people at most, 1000 are from the US, 500 agree, 350 of them will vote. But they all live in different states.

Why even bother?

If only it were possible to make social media posts more than once.
Personally I think you're overstating the electoral impact of this post -- if it really were "one powerful argument posted on social media = 350 votes", then a community of 100 people could each make a post a week from now until the election and swing the election by one million votes.
I actually do think that's somewhat similar to how it works. It is widely acknowledged that authoritarian governments are running organized troll campaigns on social media; every big social media platform has a team assigned to detecting and combatting it. I don't think that would be happening if it simply produced 0 result. I think the result is less than 350, but it's definitely not 0.
- This. You either become a bot in the hands of those you like or those who you don't like win with the help of their bots. Needless to say, I don't share your optimism, but I'm glad that we share the same despair.
  I see how MGS2sation of the world is happening and I simply don't know how to exist here politically.
Yes, why do anything ever?
- Said Sisyphus rolling his stone up to the hill
For the same reason I talk to my friends, get them registered to vote, and go with them to the polls. I can’t make a difference on a large scale, but I can make a small difference. I can get five other people to vote who might not have otherwise, and that’s important.
- Let đe give you advice you haven't asked. Please, be prepared to lose.
Why even bother?
Feels good, mostly.