Knife vs. Gun Control?
Knife vs. Gun Control?
Why are knife control laws so strong in the United States as opposed to gun control?
I was realizing it would be nice to have a knife with auto opening for boxes, etc., basically a switch blade or similar, and I found out that they are super illegal in my state (and/or there are length restrictions, or both sides of the blade can't be sharp, etc), but I can go into a sporting goods store and buy a pistol and ammo in under 30min.
Shooting open an Amazon box seems inefficient. What is up with restrictive knife-control laws??
Because knife doesn't have NKA to lobby for it.
I wouldn't mind if they did honestly
The workaround is to buy a small handgun for concealed carry and then attach a small switchblade bayonet.
Your right to open boxes shall not be infringed
🤣
When a moral panic happens, a lot of things get blown out of proportion. A good example was the panic relating to D&D and satanism. There was a huge panic sometime in the 50s or 60s about the police dealing with young thugs with concealed switch blades, which could be hidden, and then deployed one handed so fast a cop couldn't draw his weapon fast enough. So this panic got a lot of laws drawn up to ban any switch blade.
Since then, the there are knives that skirt the law by not having a spring which force the blade open, instead a tension bar. There are still types are illegal to carry if a Cop would find out you have it, like "Out the front" switch knives.
The stupid part is, there are plenty of "one hand deployable" knives on the market that are 100% legal. But the laws never get revisited. In my state it's illegal to have a out the front switch blade, yet a bunch of high end OTF knives are for sale at a sporting store. They just post a sign that says "Know your local laws", which some how makes it okay to sell.
If anyone has more to add, or corrects, let me know.
It also goes to show how laws made during the moral panic don't go away even decades after that panic fades.
This is often in mind when responsible gun owners are critical of more gun laws. The govt won't go "that was silly of us here's your bit of freedom back" even if a law objectively had zero positive effect
The arbitrarity of some states' knife laws is also a problem. I don't remember which state (OK pre ~2015 law updates perhaps?), but I read about one that had few carry restrictions below a certain blade size (somewhere in the neighborhood of 3 inches, IIRC), and if you're caught carrying one over the limit, you basically have to give a specific purpose for having it. Assuming your case goes to trial, this means it's more or less up to the judge to determine if your use was valid, which is juuuuuuuussst flexible enough to persecute the "right" people. (assuming I'm remembering correctly that this was in Oklahoma, that would be Native Americans)
Switching gears; Some More News had a pretty comprehensive video about moral panics, which also includes some history on switchblades in particular, for those interested.
I think it's 1.5 inches in Connecticut. Lol
Seems correct to me. Thanks for the thoughtful response.
Butterfly knives only became legal in NY and MA about 4 years ago. There's virtually zero reason to ban them other than protecting stupid people from their stupidity
(I'm one of those stupid people)
I had one of those in high school and took it with me to a school trip in my back pack. We were at camp (think log houses) for three nights and I started spinning the blade daily. Lots of cuts (mostly on my hands) later I've learned to flip it like a pro. I can still do it to this day if someone hands me one. It's like biking or swimming. Once you learn it, you don't forget.
The teacher that was with us never said anything besides watching my progress. He was the coolest dude ever. I miss you, Mr Jones.
They were banned because racism. Not because of any particular danger to the user.
Same reason they banned pinball in Chicago and NY. To distract the people away from what names politicians money.
I got one of those things at a state fair when I was a little kid and set about immediately cutting myself trying to flip it open and look cool. My mom took it from me shortly thereafter. That ended the short saga of WoahWoah and the butterfly knife.
At this point, I can't think of any reason I would want one. People that can use them well look pretty cool, but as a purposeful knife, they seem pointlessly complicated and prone to user error.
I use one as my daily! I practice with it a lot and have a trainer to practice. Funny enough, I actually just modeled mine today in a photoshoot (am a circus performer)
As a daily they function as any other knife. If you're experienced with them, you don't even think about open or closing. There's a tiny bit of security in knowing that most people are too afraid to hold one. I do also like that they absolutely can't close on you while holding it.
I have cut myself though. The worst was when I did a toss that landed tip-down on my palm. But small harm doesn't bother me.
Yeah, but I'd love to have a switch blade. Seems really convenient to me.
What a glorious ninja-career that could have been.
Because so-called second amendment advocates are really just gun nuts, and so over the years they have worked hard to maintain the right to keep and bear guns, rather than arms.
Thus knives, swords, halberds, maces, and all other 'arms' have had restrictions go unchallenged, or at least, not challenged by an extensive and well funded network of advocacy.
Because knife control doesn’t have an entry on the constitution.
Are knives not arms?
Similarly to religion and the bible, words mean whatever people want them to mean.
Right, wouldn't a hand grenade or a suicide vest count as arms? But I get shit for exercising my 2nd. SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!!
Because there is no National Knife Association to lobby for knife rights.
If you look at the timing of most the laws against specific types of knives… you’re going to notice a pattern where there was some scare involving some minority or alt group.
Switch blades were outlaws after Hollywood depicted African American villains as gangsters with them.
Same with ballisongs and Asian gangsters/villians.
All of that said, auto-openers have a hair trigger and I would suggest instead getting a good flipper you can easily flick open. Benchmade bugout is my EDC (not for fighting, it’s light and solid.)
There are actually some legal movements to reduce unnecessary knife laws, because a lot of them are based around the idea of 50s punks and don't make actual logical sense.
But yeah, it depends entirely on the state. The only knife laws in my state is you can't conceal carry a Bowie knife, but all other knives (OTF, automatics, balisongs, etc) are legal.
Shooting open an Amazon box seems inefficient.
True, but it's the American way.
They aren't: This is 100% state dependent. Some states have extremely permissive laws allowing you to carry anything from a switchblade to a greatsword if you want.
Yes, and gun laws are state dependent as well. I'm not talking about federal law (though technically the Federal Switchblade Act of 1958 is still in force), I'm saying that arguably the majority of states in the United States have more permissive gun laws than knife laws, and it's absurd.
Most of the truly ridiculous knife laws are in states with equally ridiculous gun laws. A few have been challenged under 2A grounds with some degree of success but it just isn't being pursued that much.
I moved to Japan where knives are also heavily restricted. If you live in Japan, you need a permit to purchase anything with a fixed blade over 15cm and it must be kept in the home. You can't legally carry a pocket knife with a blade longer than 6cm (I think 8cm if it's a folding but not fixed blade) and even then, if stopped, you need to have a specific reason for carrying it around.
It was really weird to me, as someone who carried a pocket knife basically everywhere. I did learn, though, that "in case I need to open boxes" is a case that has come up like twice in 10 years.
As for guns here, handguns are not allowed at all. There are licenses for airguns (pellet guns), rifles, and shotguns. Separately, there are licenses for trapping and hunting that do grant some permissions outside of what I wrote above (hunting/trapping license but no gun license means you're going to be killing your catch with knife, spear, strangulation, drowning, or electrocution).
Interesting. I will say, I use my pocket knife usually at least once a day for one thing or another. They're surprisingly useful for all sorts of tasks.
The permit requirement does not apply to kitchen knives, does it? Been some time, but I travelled to Tokio quite frequently for work, and always made it a point to go to kappabashi and get a nice cooking knife, some of the longer than 20 cm.
There's a tourist exemption, but the knives have to be packaged and legally can't be opened.
Well there are such restrictions on guns, try and get a short barrel rifle in under 30 min, the paperwork alone will take that long.
But also yeah those laws suck and shouldn't exist. Much like the original intent behind CCW permits where the theory was "concealing is for criminals," those knives were also seen as "for criminals." It's just old outdated bullshit that goes largely uncharged but can be used if they want to fuck with you. In some cases "criminals" was also synonymous with black people or even italians depending on the year lol, and were passed for racist reasons.
I was thinking the same thing. There are definitely restrictions on the size/function of guns, and you have to fill out paperwork, get fingerprinted, etc to get past those restrictions.
To buy any gun at a store, you also have to have a background check, which you generally don't have to do for knives.
While that is true, in states with restrictive knife laws, there is no permitting, tax stamp, or background check option. They're simply illegal typically without exception.
I.e., a CCW does not apply to an OTF knife or dagger in states where those types of knives are illegal, and there is no legal option available to legally carry one. Conversely, with sufficient paperwork, background check, and tax stamps, etc, you can get a machine gun.
I am just pointing out how odd it is that in some states there is a legal avenue for a citizen to purchase, own, and use a machine gun but not a small blade that opens with a button. But laws are often crazy, so, I guess it's not really a huge surprise.
https://amedia.concealedcarry.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/12135010/atf-braces.jpeg these are just some of the gun laws you can accidentally break... And some of those "legal" options have been flip-flopped in recent years based on meandering policy decisions by the ATF.
It's very rare that people who wish that "guns were regulated like x" or "can't believe that guns are less regulated than y" have very little knowledge of what gun laws actually are like at the federal level, much less the archipelago of state laws.
The corrolary is that there's essentially no knife control in Canada. There's no length limit or anything. The law just states that you can't carry a weapon. But if you have a reasonable reason to be carrying a machete (like going bushwacking) you're good.
There are also length laws and switch laws. I know, because I once had a hunting knife that was slightly over the length limit. The RCMP insisted I grind it down and submit it for inspection.
However, such restrictions are use-based; you can have a set of steak knives that are over the limit, because their intended use is obviously not against humans. But if someone pulls a steak knife on someone in public, they’ll run afoul of the knife laws.
I once sat on a jury for an attempted manslaughter knifing that took place in a kitchen with a steak knife, where both participants were drunk at the time; lots of interesting arguments were made by both sides.
Unless there's some provincial law, RCMP was fucking with you. There is no length law.
What is the maximum blades size one is allowed to carry in Canada?
There is no specific blade size restriction for carry in Canadian law. However, the larger the size of the blade, the more difficult it would be to identify it as a tool for everyday use. For example; if you are hunting, then a large fixed blade knife on your side is generally acceptable. However, carrying the same large fixed blade knife on your side while walking downtown in a major city would be a different matter. If you have specific questions, please contact your local law enforcement agency
https://www.bladescanada.com/FAQ-Frequently-Asked-Questions
The only reference to knives in the criminal code concerns so called automatic knives:
There is no law banning the carrying in public knives with sheaths, knives that take both hands to open and any knife with a fixed blade and certain non-prohibited folding knives, assuming they are not carried for a purpose dangerous to public peace or for the purpose of committing a criminal offense.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knife_legislation#Canada
What Size Knife Is Legal To Carry In Canada?
In Canada there's no specified blade length that makes it legal or not. The knife's legality is determined by the purpose of carrying the knife and its design.
https://www.staysafevancouver.com/post/can-i-carry-a-knife-in-canada
There is a "Knife Rights" organization that works to overturn these laws. From what I hear, they tend to be pretty successful, since there isn't a ton of attention on the issue and there isn't much in the way of entrenched opposition the way there is on the guns issue.
Just line up the gun parallel to the tape so that the bullet rips it open
The US has strong knife laws? I carry a knife almost everyday and this is the first I’m hearing of this. The only time I can’t take my knife somewhere is if no weapons at all are allowed there, like government buildings.
I'm my state there are restrictions, but they are pretty much accessory charges that you won't get unless you are a dipshit. You do have to have a firearms permit to carry an automatic knife though, I am not aware of anybody getting charged with that and that alone.
What is funny is you can have a ka-bar on your belt not concealed and be fine, but you aren't suppose to carry a pocketknife with a blade over 3.5". Also if the fixed blade knife is sharpened on both sides of the blade, that is a no-no, but if it folds it is fine. I think they just removed the ban on butterfly knifes or it has the firearms permit exemption now, but I would have to check to confirm.
As you can imagine, the gun laws make about as much sense and don't do much to help the problem of violence.
What state do you live in? You might be surprised to find you are technically breaking the law. Or you're just carrying a simple little folding knife.
I went looking at every state I’ve lived in and the one with the most restrictions was Texas, obviously states like New York or California will be more restrictive, but the only real restrictions that I found outside of new england / California, were switchblades or “automatic opening knives”, and carrying in locations like schools and government buildings, which I expected. I used to carry a 8” hunting knife (13” overall) when I did a bunch of outdoor work, now I carry a smaller 3” folding pocketknife (6” overall).
It depends on the state, my state has almost no knife laws, but in New York (for example) nearly all folding knives are technically considered illegal gravity knives. Basically if you open a knife 99% of the way, and are able to flick it the remaining 1% open it's considered an illegal gravity knife.
It's pretty dumb.
Very old laws on the books that no one has bothered to change in some states. Federally, they aren't illegal. Federally, knives weren't protected under the 2nd amendment so states had an easier time putting rules in place against them, and many did. My state just legalized otf and switch blades for everyone a few years ago. Mainly because unassisted knives were able to become just as quick and easy to open, it was a bit silly to leave assisted open knives not legal.
As an added note just for you: cardboard is hell on knife blades and they'll dull them very quickly. I'd get yourself a box knife and blades f9r it if you open a lot of boxes, unless you want to sharpen a knife like twice a week.
Cut the tape, not the box.
Your two options on that are to cut excessively slowly and carefully, or don't and dull your knife up. Plus you don't know if it's the clear tape or if it's the paper box tape that op is cutting.
Just get one anyway. It won’t do you any favors if a cop finds it but knife control isn’t a big priority for most law enforcement
EDIT: I am not a lawyer
My opinion is that it comes down to people not caring as much.
Yeah, that seems obvious, but bear with me here.
Know what the biggest difference there is between knives and guns? It ain't how they do the job as weapons, though that is a big one. It's that guns all work the same, so if you start banning one kind, it ends up applying to far more than anyone that thinks of firearms as an extension of the right to defense, a core human right, is willing to accept.
You ban switchblades, and there's still fixed blades, slipjoints, lockbacks, etc. Nobody has ever tried to make the kind of laws you see around knives in other countries, but if there was an attempt, I don't think there would be as much passion against it as there are with guns because there's just not as much concern about knives as part of the right to defense because guns exist. Range > melee 90% of the time.
Firearms are the gold standard for personal weaponry. So out of the peeps that care about the enumerated right to keep and bear arms simply don't think about knives as much. Same as they don't think about bows, or swords or halberds. They don't care because the fight isn't as relevant to them.
And, on the other side of things, because guns are the gold standard, you don't have as many people targeting knives. There's less to fight against
Now, if guns disappeared, see how quickly crossbows and swords started being the target as people shifted to them instead of guns. That's where the fight would go to. Ban those, and there's going to be steps all the way down until the debate is about how big a rock you are allowed to have.
Also, because of that lack of give-a-shit, knife laws aren't draconian everywhere. There's some states where you can own and carry any knife you want. Others only ban knives that can shoot across the room, or other specific, niche types
Also, I think you're underestimating how easy it is to get a pistol. If you go in without the work done ahead of time, you ain't buying a pistol in half an hour. I don't think even Texas is that loose. Background checks take at least that long. Maybe I'm behind the times om something, but even "shall issue" permit states, you have to count getting the permit in the time factor, imo.
As I understand it, NICS checks take minutes now that everything is done electronically. The more comprehensive so-called "universal background checks" are only required in a minority of states.
30 minutes is probably on the longer end for the whole process. So, you may be behind the times a little bit on this one, but idk for sure, and obviously it varies from state to state.
I know my friend bought a hunting rifle in about 15min last year to go deer hunting for the first time, because I went with him out of morbid curiosity. I think if you're over 21, a handgun purchase is identical.
The background check was so fast I didn't even know they did one until I told him I thought they need to do a background check and he told me they did it while they were packaging his gun and ringing it up. I thought it was like in The Simpsons where it's a few days, where Homer goes "aww, but I'm mad now!!" Lol
Well dang! That's kinda neat that the tech has gotten better.
I'm in a permit state, so I definitely fell behind on that, thanks for the info.
I suspect it is because knives are not included in the second amendment of the constitution. That is a pretty easy argument for people to use against gun regulation (whether or fair or not), but there is no such thing for knives.
Knives are included in "arms." In 2008, the Supreme Court ruled in Heller that the term "arms" has the same meaning as it did in the 18th century and includes anything that can be used for defense, carried for offensive or defensive action, or used to strike another person.
Laws on the books generally don't get overturned unless they are specifically mentioned in a court ruling, or there is some action by a legislative body. If you want to be able to buy/sell switchblades, you could challenge the law and see where it goes. But apparently nobody has bothered to take it to court.
I guess knives aren't socially seen as defensive arms even if legally they are
Depends on the state. Down here there are pretty much zero restrictions except with an asterisk that it's illegal to harm someone with them... AKA, an extra charge of you're a dick and stab someone.
I've been carrying an "out the front automatic" for the last few years.
It's kinda funny that they're like knives are cool unless you stab someone with one. If only we had other laws covering the legality of stabbing someone. 😁
Prosecutors really like those add-on laws.
we have had a lot of laws against defense to like body armor or nonlethal weapons. its wierd. I remember watching a pbs round table with degerberg on it and he was talking about where are ll the murder corpses with shuriken wounds. H liked arnis because as he says there is no government in the world that can outlaw sticks.
Now in English please.
It is. Let me help you with your comprehension. The only real issues are that “all” and “he” are missing their vowels in two places and none of the names are capitalised. If that makes it illegible then that is on you. Sure, it helps if you already know (Fred) Degerberg and what PBS, Shuriken and Arnis means but we do have search engines.
He is not wrong about the stick.
Because knives are the weapon of choice of poor people and abuse victims that are lashing out while guns are favored by the white dudes
The weapon of choice of poor people? 12x more violent crime is committed using firearms than knives in the United States. You may be under the impression that all guns are expensive, but that's not the case.
Also, your post implicitly categorizes people of color as poor, abused, knife-wielding criminals. That seems like a long, convoluted way to be racist, but you do you.
You were trying so hard to make this a race/class issue that you accidentally did a racism. 🤣
No actually, he's right. Many knife laws were created specifically to target minorities.
For instance, the gravity knife ban that's in place in many states exists because the state of New York realized that poor people who wanted to carry a safe, concealed knife on them were using gravity knives due to their low price making them more accessible than other folding and automatic knives at the time. New York saw a bunch of minorities carrying gravity knives, figured that they must be a "gang weapon" and banned them, and about half the other states followed suit immediately after. Some states have since reversed course on this obviously racist law, but many are still holding out. The ban has nothing to do with the safety of the knife, it's only because lawmakers were afraid of armed minorities.
I feel you, I needed a bread knife to slice a loaf and there is a 4 day waiting period before I can go down to my FKL and pickup my turbo-bread-saw 9000.
You don't need a switchblade to open boxes. A box cutter (hence the name) works just fine.
If you think box cutters are too blue-collar, get a multitool with a knife on it (a "pocketknife" with other gizmos).
A steak knife works fine too. So would the end of an axe, or the tip of a freshly cut key. That isn't the point. But surely you know that..?
