Fedi Garden to Instance Admins: "Block Threads to Remain Listed"
Fedi Garden to Instance Admins: "Block Threads to Remain Listed"
Server indexes of places for newcomers to join can be instrumental for Fediverse adoption. However, sudden rule changes can leave some admins feeling pressure to change policies in order to remain listed.
the one reason I joined the instance Lemm.ee was because its mission was to avoid defederating and be the widest firehose nozzle of lemmy content available.
even i would prefer for lemm.ee to defederate threads.
imo it doesn't matter for Lemmy right now one way or another, and maybe not ever. Being federated with Threads doesn't do anything yet. Defederate or not, the only change (from my understanding) is about making a statement, or standing with other microblog platform instances that made a choice.
On mastodon however, I'll likely either use a federated instance or run two accounts. It's very likely that some person I want to follow will be on Threads, and until people can convince them otherwise ¯_(ツ)_/¯
What's nice though is that if Threads is on activitypub, you won't need to log in to see the content. It's only if you want to engage with the content, and that can be done from a second Mastodon account.
It’s very likely that some person I want to follow will be on Threads, and until people can convince them otherwise
You realize that it makes it a lot more difficult to convince people to come to the rest of the Fediverse instead of using Threads if people are following them and federating with Threads?
This is exactly how Zuckerberg wants you to think.
Is this really a problem for Lemmy though? Threads content isn’t going to show up here because threads doesn’t have communities, and Lemmy doesn’t allow you to follow people.
Part of the concern is deceptive/astroturfed content developed as advertising showing up in Lemmy communities. While those same actors could theoretically be based on lemm.ee, that's a lot more work than simply scaling up operations when you're doing it on Threads anyway.
Threads can still participate via comments on Lemmy. I believe they can also post to communities via hashtags?
Meta: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/09/myanmar-facebooks-systems-promoted-violence-against-rohingya-meta-owes-reparations-new-report/, https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1320040111, https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-facebook-files-11631713039
Instance admins: Let's give them a chance guyyyyss!!
Those of you who think the problem is data scraping or whatever are totally missing the point. All profit-motivated social media platforms engage in promoting hate content for engagement, and in doing so have deadly real world consequences. The Fediverse is one of the few online spaces where people can just be themselves naturally without being manipulated by algorithms. Given their history, there's no reason to assume Threads won't be any better about handling their own community, and anything that happens with them will affect the rest of us.
for real. im new to lemmy but places like hexbear seem really good for trans stuff. i hate how so many trans places are dependent upon facebook or reddit to exist. facebook itself is problematic because those fuckers already assisted a genocide in myanmar, whats to stop them from helping to massacre trans people here?
Hexbear is definitely a good place for trans stuff, its just a shame about all of the authoritarians.
hexbear seem really good for trans stuff.
HB and blahj are the two explicitly pro-trans instances. Hexbear is strongly oriented towards communism but I would strongly suggest them over blahj just because of their abysmal handling of c/196's noncery. They just don't have as strong of a track record as hexbear.
for real. im new to lemmy but places like hexbear seem really good for trans stuff.
I am not trans, and so this may be incorrect, but while of course you can use any instance you choose, IIRC it's https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/ that is very explicitly trans-supportive at the instance level. (I'm not saying other instances are transphobic, to be clear)
Edit: I see you've already taken the convo far past the comment I replied to, sorry for not reading ahead!
A community index of servers added a new rule recently, that requires every participant to defederate from Threads.
Maybe I'm naive but I kinda don't get it. People talk about defederating as if...what, all Meta IP addresses will be magically blocked from scraping your content? Any script kiddie can harvest Lemmy/Mastodon/whatever content.
Has Meta shown itself to be a bad actor? Yes. Should my email provider block all emails from Meta? Well...that's a bit much I think? If Facebook email still existed, should my email provider block that?
My point is yes, Meta bad, but all Thread users also bad? I thought --- and apparently I'm very wrong here --- that the Federation paradigm was kinda like email. And the only email I want blocked is a domain where every single user is malicious, not a domain run by a malicious entity which has normal people as users, who aren't necessarily very tech literate.
I don't actually care, but I just find it a little confusing tbh.
@qjkxbmwvz I think the main fear is Embrace Extend Extinguish.
It's not about interacting with Threadworms, it's about sleepwalking into a situation where Meta is changing the very nature of ActivityPub itself.
I'm actually curious about "Embrace Extend Extinguish": What can they do? They "extend" the ActivityPub protocol in a proprietary way, ok. Doesn't mean any other instance has to use that, no? Ok, that would mean if an instance doesn't follow that extension, it can't interact optimally with Threads, but how does it matter? To me it seems all that can be lost by that is the content/user base that Threads brings into the Fediverse and then we are at the same point as we would be if we defederated immediately. Maybe I'm missing something here?
Threads exists for the sole purpose of capturing some of the people showing interest in the fediverse as twitter dies and keeping them in the facebook ecosystem. Once it believes it has exhausted this window of opportunity it will defederate just as it de-federated it's xmmp based messenger service once it thought it had the upperhand.
Every server that defederates from meta preemptively is working to build a resilient community that will survive this inevitable scenario. Every server that federates with meta will become dependent on it then collapse as their users leave to join threads once that becomes their only option to continue interacting with the threads users that their social experience was built on.
Your post only concerns threats to an individual user re scraping or malicious interactions. The threat meta poses to the fediverse is systemic. In the long run the meta-blocking servers are the fediverse. The meta-federating servers might see some short term attention but in the long run will have the same fate as those that hitched their wagons to the metaverse.
I dont care if they scrape my comments I just wouldnt want to see sneaky "promoted" posts aka ads and I enjoy the idea of boycotting facebook.
Ultimately the decision is for the instances owners and admins to make, not ours. I will just migrate to one that doesnt federate with facebook if I have to.
I just wouldnt want to see sneaky “promoted” posts aka ads
I don't quite see how that would even work. Those posts would need to be coming from individual users rather than from Facebook itself and you can just block those users. Facebook can display ads in between posts on their own app but those wont be visible to people using other apps.
I just wouldnt want to see sneaky "promoted" posts aka ads
Nobody is forcing you to follow users/communities on Threads.
And the only email I want blocked is a domain where every single user is malicious, not a domain run by a malicious entity which has normal people as users, who aren’t necessarily very tech literate.
You'll never get the tech iliterate people to switch to the rest of the Fediverse otherwise. Defederating Threads is about making it as bad as possible for its users - it's about hurting Meta and stemming its bad influence on the web.
It's not about looking what's happening in the garden, it's about entering in the garden. It's two very different situations.
I agree, and I predict people will eventually pick instances that are doing what you suggested.
My understanding is that the defederation is to prevent MetaFacebook from getting to a point where they control the entire thing and then destroy it.
I don't think defederating is the right move for that, but it's a move
I think most people simply just don't know how federation works and they imagine that defederating blocks Facebook from accessing your content when in reality it's the exact opposite; it places one way mirror between us from which only they can see thru. There's also some great irony in the fact that they're talking about genocide while advocating for using the nuclear option to block Facebook despite the massive number of innocent casualties it'll cause.
EDIT: Turns out I was mistaken. Defederation indeed does stop the flow of data both ways.
Brother these things are in no way the same. One is a tech giant knowingly aiding and abbeting governments who are ethnically cleansing their country and another is not being able to see posts from a different instance. The only great irony is you calling them innocent casualties.
it places one way mirror between us from which only they can see thru
What do you mean by this? Even if Meta would collect data from defederated servers (I don't think they would), it would be massively more complicated than if they were federated.
There’s also some great irony in the fact that they’re talking about genocide while advocating for using the nuclear option to block Facebook despite the massive number of innocent casualties it’ll cause.
Sir/Madame, not being able to see some online content is nothing at all like having your family members murdered in real life.
Read A Death Sentence For My Father sometime and you will see.
the crochet(?) veggies are adorable
The guy who runs the growyourownservices network despite seeming very professional is extremely emotionally biased and hates Lemmy as a software (and seemingly any instances that will choose to run that software, regardless of their affiliation towards the developers).
So he basically refuses to acknowledge the existence of Lemmy and by extension a large portion of the threaded fediverse, and when he does acknowledge it he's talking shit about it.
Sean, I think your article is missing the most important section: alternatives to Fedi Garden.
Can you at least list a few at the end of the article?
common Fedi Garden W
The entire point of the Fedi-verse is so that one person or small group of people can't ruin the entire platform for everyone else. Anyone who tells you how to moderate your content, backed up by a threat can screw off.
I'm kinda against defederation or blocking anything at an instance level, unless the instance causes straight up legal issues or is literally created for the sole purpose of harassment
When they have a track record like this?
ZUCK: yea so if you ever need info about anyone at harvard
ZUCK: just ask
ZUCK: i have over 4000 emails, pictures, addresses, sns
FRIEND: what!? how’d you manage that one?
ZUCK: people just submitted it
ZUCK: i don’t know why
ZUCK: they “trust me”
ZUCK: dumb fucks
Well, I think Threads meets your litmus test requirements.
It is a certainty that Threads will heavily influence the future development of Activity Pub. This will inevitibly lead to the corporatization and enshittification of any service Threads can affect.
The only resistance we can offer against this is defederation and noncompliance with the will of the behemoth.
Finally someone with enough balls and brains.
...I'll almost never object to a "fuck Nazis" policy.
What, as in you're always in bed with Nazis? Cause basing yourself out of sh.itjust.works at this point is a pretty good indication that you are ok with fascism.
sh.ithole is the federation's lightning rod for sh.itheads
The beauty is that people can do what they want with their own instance, and I can move and still be in lemmy/mastodon.
Is this the last migration?
Every time something like this gets posted, there are always Lemmy users crying to defederate their Lemmy instances.
But remember, the current concern is with Mastodon, NOT Lemmy. Lemmy can’t actually view the post types that Masto and Threads make. Wendy’s can post all the Threads ads they want - we’re not going to see them here. We can’t. That hasn’t been built.
Try it. Go view someone’s Mastodon account in Lemmy. You don’t see their posts.
we’re not going to see them here. We can’t. That hasn’t been built.
It has been partially built insofar as Kbin and Mbin can see Mastodon posts here and Mastodon interacts with us. Wouldn't surprise me if Lemmy eventually gets some of that functionality too.
If Meta starts to EEE ActivityPub that will affect all of us.
To illustrate even more: I follow a Lemmy privacy "group" with an Akkoma account.
You will in fact see their posts if they reply to Lemmy comments. They'll then appear as comments in Lemmy. I believe Mastodon users can also post to communities by using hashtags, though I'm not 100% clear on that.
When you @ mention a community from Lemmy as a user on Mastodon you can post to that community from Mastodon. The first sentence of your Mastodon post will be used as the title, which is why they often look so strange on the Lemmy side.
You can also follow a Lemmy community from Mastodon, but it gets a bit messy as every comment will be shown as a boost Mastodon side.
I hope the groups addition that Mastodon is working on will fix that mess.
@Ghostalmedia @deadsuperhero I think the fact that I was able to see and reply to this comment of yours from Mastodon proves this idea false, if you check the Post history of this account you will also find that content posted in Lemmy is visible.
They absolutely do interact, lemmy is way more Mastodon friendly than most people give it credit for, considering the fact that communities/groups, automatically boost every post and comment for visibility.
So people on Lemmy being concerned about poorly moderated or cesspool microblog instances is indeed a valid concern.
I post stuff on lemmy via my mastodon account so I don't have to deal with image hosting on my lemmy instance, so its not quite that simple. You're not wrong, but they do interact
It's not us seeing Threads that's the problem, it's Threads seeing us (and thereby trapping all of us in their sticky web we tried to escape, what with their shadow profiles and whatnot).
So what would stop them from shadow profiling you by scraping content, or using a different domain? Most lemmy instances are configured to federate with a blocklist, meaning any unblocked instance can download data. Facebook can just make an instance under a different domain and download the data that way. Or they can just scrape user data from the web facing interface.
Posts and comments on lemmy are public. If facebook wants your publicly accessible data from the fediverse, de-federating from threads isn't going to stop them.
Seems like a way of bullying community leaders into running their instances how Fedi Garden feels is appropriate. Which is intrinsically against the nature of the Fediverse, in that instances are meant to have their own autonomy.
Fedi Garden's position in this space is to be a directory, not a dictator. This feels like an overstep.
I think communities/sites etc. on the fediverse should live and die by their decisions. They can make this decision if they want, time will tell if its the correct one or not. That is the nature of the fediverse!
The nature of federation is that you can make your own instance with your own rules independent of a single walled garden and still participate with the other members. Create your own index if you don't like this one.
And that is exactly what Fedi Garden is going against here. This is not letting each instance to decide who they want to federate with and who not. They're telling instances to defederate threads.net or else.. That's forcing their values onto others and bullying them to do as they say. That is dictatorial.
Fedi.garden also has their own autonomy. They have the right to make whatever rules for their website they want. If you don't like how they run their list, then don't use it. Make your own. If people like yours better, they'll use it instead.
It's funny to me how many big flare-ups and popular issues have been about defederating or controlling other instances but we've not really had a single popular event where users work on anything together to benefit community.
Individuals have made tools but there's not been calls to action and mass cooperation events for anything beside silencing unpopular groups. No community design discussions devising and implementing tools or features, no group efforts to catalog or document or display useful data...
I don't know if it's just that people here haven't considered the possibility of doing something positive or that outrage about others is just so much more compelling
I cannot see anything bad here. Blocking an actively malicious actor should be the norm.
predicted? they're facebook, they are not predicted to be bad, they ARE bad.
lets learn from history and not be deer in the headlights
It’s often advantageous to prevent catastrophe before it occurs rather than clean up the mess once it happens.
Why cover your nuts when you can just let somebody kick you there repeatedly?
Did you already forget the shit Facebook keeps doing? Repeatedly.
Facebook has and it's doing plenty bad. At this point, assuming this time they will be good is too much of wishful thinking.
Still I would let the instances decide. Seems a bit counter spirit to try to force them. Even as a user your can block them (there are two that a lot of users are blocking already...)
cough
So wasn’t Google when they killed XMPP.
like this?
if only Facebook had started in 2004 and not 2024 we might have some historical evidence about how the company handles moderation or community safety or protecting user data or..
if only threads wasn't launching literally today and we knew if they'd enthusiastically welcome hate accounts like Libs of Tiktok https://www.mediamatters.org/libs-tiktok/timeline-impact-libs-tiktok-told-through-educators-health-care-providers-librarians
Ounce of prevention > pound of cure; or in Meta's case, imperial fucktonne of cure.
It's Facebook dude. To put it in Lemmy friendly terms, they're not different entities in the way that Linux and Windows are. They're different entities in the same way that Windows and Xbox are. It's not technically the same thing but it's the same people calling the shots. Expecting something different is only going to leave you disappointed.
I’m voting for Trump because he hasn’t done anything bad as a second term president.
They have done a lot of bad, not with threads, but with any other app. A wait and see approach to Facebook at this point is insanity.