Pretty Easy Choice
cross-posted from: https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/post/17869503
I know I'm going against the grain here, I'm obviously no Harris lover, but also I'd prefer to be allowed to continue existing. If that's controversial in leftist spaces then maybe I don't want to spend any more time in leftist spaces.
Telling people in danger that their attempts to save themselves are contemptible is nothing but cynical callousness.
It's children whining about how life is unfair but instead of actually trying to do something about it now, they'd rather feel smugly superior as they do fuckall and "wait for the revolution" or whatever.
Do I believe positive change is quick or easy? Fuck no. It's hard work and it takes a ton of us working together. I harbor no illusions that my own singular voice will ever matter on a large scale, and I will happily take up my arms to defend the rights of those whose only crime is existing while lgbtq+/poc/whatever, but I'm gonna vote and campaign and everything I can do in the meantime.
Whether we're headed for a cliff as a species or not is irrelevant, I don't feel the need to hit the gas or sit back while mocking the people who are trying to stop the bus.
Yeah, people who see the long list of minorities that would be negatively affected by a Trump presidency and insist that there is no difference between the candidates are telling on themselves: Who gets the presidency would make no difference - for them. And they have no empathy for anybody else.
Very true. Just, the weird thing is I'm not sure if this comment is intended as pro-Harris-vote or pro-Palestine-boycott.
it's manipulation at best. we've enacted 75% of project 2025 so far since 1981 and we thrived without republican or democratic help. in fact, biden used to me one of our most vocal enemies and ran for president during that time and we're still here.
I mostly lurk and prefer to not get involved in politics, but GOOD GOD I'M SO GLAD I'M NOT THE ONLY ONE WHO FEELS THIS WAY. It's so exhausting.
What sucks is that voting isn't swearing a blood oath that turns you into a slave of neoliberalism and prevents you from doing direct action: you can do both. Voting isn't going to save Palestinians (and it's a bitter pill to swallow, I know), but it's going to save lots of other vulnerable minorities (who never really asked to be born in the imperial core!), and still provide breathing room for direct action that can help Palestine.
Like... even if you don't care about the safety of trans people, pragmatically speaking it's immensely easier to organize as leftists in a neoliberal regime than it is in a fascist regime. Just look at what happened to the KPD when they proclaimed "first Hitler, then it's our turn". (Yes, the SPD backstabbed them during Weimar - RIP Rosa Luxemburg - but that pales to the Nazis basically rounding them all up and sending them to the gas chambers!) I don't want history to repeat. Please don't let it repeat.
Your comment exposes what it is that's so deeply disturbing about this wave if Leftist Nihilism. They're basically saying "if we can't save everyone, then we might as well all die."
This. I vote for the best outcome my vote could achievably help to bring about and lets not forget about primaries and getting in better canidates from the get go. But voting is only one thing.
The SPD insisted on voting for the "lesser evil" of Hindenburg to stop Hitler rather than cooperating with the KPD, who they denounced as being just as bad as the Nazis. Hindenburg then proceeded to appoint Hitler as chancellor, which is exactly what allowed him to come to power.
What sucks is that voting isn’t swearing a blood oath that turns you into a slave of neoliberalism and prevents you from doing direct action: you can do both. Voting isn’t going to save Palestinians (and it’s a bitter pill to swallow, I know), but it’s going to save lots of other vulnerable minorities (who never really asked to be born in the imperial core!), and still provide breathing room for direct action that can help Palestine.
we managed thrive since our government started adopting project 2025 in 1981 and also without democrat support. (democrat support came later after most the blood, sweat, and tears were done and we only accepted them because reagan and bush were worse). we survived and thrived those decades, despite its HUGE downsides; so i see project 2025 as nothing more than propaganda to energize kamala's base who can't remember before 2008.
however this is the most cogent argument i've seen anywhere for supporting this perpetual minority making machine and i think it's only flaw (besides the 2025 propaganda) is its narrow focus on this this election cycle instead of considering the big picture:
democrats have been moving rightwards since the 1980's and, every time they've won, they've entrenched that capitalist affirming step that they believe helped them win the election. this has created a eroding downward trend on protections for things like civil rights and the environment. we've now descended to a point where genocide is back on the menu again like it was 100 years ago and i'm afraid of what else will show up on the menu next time after the democrat's entrench a genocide as a tolerable political tactic.
i suspect that it's a moot point since most of us here have been holding our nose to vote for the lesser evil for the last 45 years and doing so has, nonetheless, painted us into this corner of choice between an democratic active genocider and a republican who only wishes he was.
Lmao people acting like how trans people are treated is a fraction of what Palestinians are going though. I'm sure if you went to Gaza you'd be voting third party to end the war at all costs.
Voting isn't going to end the war. Not voting is also not going to end the war. Stop wasting your time and good will by chastising people for voting strategically. All you're doing is sowing leftist division.
but voting third party isn't going to help end the war at all Trump has made it get clear that if he wins he will push Israel to destroy Gaza faster. explicitly. he wants them dead. a third party vote doesn't work in a first past the post system.
It’s as if voting wasn’t the one single thing you could do as a citizen.
It IS the only one that can't be twisted by media interpretation, demonized and attacked with military and police, or straight up ignored.
Well, except for all the ways that voting is broken and doesn't work. Gerrymandering and the electoral college and what not. And how your options are conservative neoliberal genocide supporter or outright neo fascist.
You couldn't vote for an actual progressive candidate if you wanted to. The entire American political system is designed to prevent that exact thing from happening.
And does voting stop you doing the other things?
It does if you treat it like the media does, billions of dollars in campaign coverage in the year leading up to election day and then nothing until it's time to do it all over again.
It a pretty easy and very impactfull thing to do... so go vote first and the do whatever else you are suggesting after.
not voting is a strawman used to manipulate you.
Fascism is bad for everyone. This is not a choice between two minority groups. This is a choice between democracy and fascism.
The only way to help the Palestinians is to vote for Kamala. Kamala wants a ceasefire. Trump has made it clear he wants Israel to finish what he started.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/04/politics/trump-israel-comments/index.html
This is what accelerationism gets us. A bunch of people who are willing to let every group of people burn, because they have been fooled into thinking that things can only get better by making them worse. Things can always get worse. We have to make things better for them to get better.
If tankies and accelerationists cared about Palestinians or trans people or anyone they would vote for Kamala without a second thought. Many of these people are from the US. They can't handle that they're from a country that isn't morally perfect, so rather than try to fix, they want to see it burn to the ground. It's a kind of state of unhappy consciousness where their country's misdeeds make them feel as if they have blood on their hands by association.
Most people recognize that beyond our vote and activism we have very little say in the day to day operations of our country. We can sleep at night by acting in a way that is useful to accomplish our goals. Tankies and accelerationists cannot. So the course of action they propose, doing nothing to impact the election out of protest, is not useful to us.
It would be great if she was actually campaigning on helping those in red states and not just saying well that's their law deal with it
It would be great if people would help build some enthusiasm for Kamala. Trump wants to round up homeless people in camps. Republicans want to remove protections against discrimination in the workplace for trans people so they end up homeless. This is an easy choice. If you care about anyone vote for Kamala, because we will all be worse off under Trump. edit: typo
It would also help if she or the dnc would campaign on protections rather than just saying we're not trump.
https://www.teenvogue.com/story/why-wont-democrats-kamala-harris-embrace-trans-rights-oped
Who is voting Republican down-ballot over Gaza for this take to function?
The electoral college favors low population states. Republicans historically do well in low population states. In order to correct for this overrepresentation, Democrats need high voter turnout. So not voting or or voting third party depresses that high voter turnout Democrats need to win. This is why tankies and accelerationists spend so much time falsely conflating Kamala and Trump. They know they need to discourage as many people from voting for Kamala as possible to get Trump elected. So Vote!
I think it's more the third party voters (which effectively are Republican voters, by taking away Dem votes). And abstainers, which, ditto.
Third party votes and abstainers for the presidency are by no measures 'taking away' votes from anyone.
It only can be that way if there are zero Republican voters voting third party or abstaining for any reason. We know this isn't true. The Democratic Party's express electoral strategy is to appeal to and attract those voters, ostensibly at a greater return rate than voters they turn off or drive to third parties.
It's a risky strategy and it failed once before in 2016.
this was proven to be a straw man since the report than jill stein siphons away more trump voters than kamala voters.
Can you explain in detail how my California 3rd party vote will help Trump?
As someone who supports third party, there was no chance of me voting for Kamala this election so you can stop with the made-up arguments
Are you saying that 2/3 of the country vote Republican? In that case, how is it possible for the Democrats to ever win?
It's unfortunate that there's a kernel of truth in both! Obviously red guy is bad and if you're thinking in the medium-term of the next five years (the context of the election) then it really is that simple.
I do want to emphasize though that there is a lot that has to be done outside the ballot box. Even if you just want status quo, a Harris government would need to be badgered heavily to actually pass the sort of legislation needed to mitigate the imminent threat of climate change (in addition to most other policy changes you'd want or need).
Climate Man isn't going to swoop down from the sky and save the world. Normal people need to see politics as a proactive, regular part of adulting. If you're planning on voting this year, consider also having the goal of (if able) attending a protest or donating to political organizations you agree with this (or next) year! Lets make government suck less c:
Obviously, the real fight only starts once the election is over. But right now the order of the day has to be defeating Trump because everything and I mean absolutely everything will get a lot worse if he wins. Harris will only implement progressive policies if there is grassroots pressure for her to do so. Trump will send the military to deal with grassroots pressure.
The day after the votes are finished counting, drag is going to become Harris' sworn enemy. Every day until that happens, drag is going to do everything drag can to help her. It's not about being right, it's about doing right.
I hadn't clocked that drag was using "drag" to refer to drag, and thought drag was saying that drag as a hobby was going to become the sworn enemy of Harris. Was super confused for a minute.
I agree, but my main point is that when I went to vote it took me 11 minutes. 11 minutes to but my voice in the election. And that does not have to be mutually exclusive with political action, I have been involved in action groups (though not as of lately due to me focusing on my studies, but if a Palestine protest starts on my campus you can bet I'll be joining it), and I'm not making the argument that voting is all you should do. Far from it. But, it is something that is quick and easy to do and if enough people do it, it could prevent a fascist government that makes change far more difficult than it is now.
but also I’d prefer to be allowed to continue existing
project 2025 is propaganda for kamala supporters and the anti-trans laws are propaganda for tump supporters.
project 2025 was created in 1980 and our government has already enacted 75% or so percent of it before trump ever made it to office. we thrived during those decades enough to shift popular support in our favor thanks to hollywood and we did it without the support of the dnc. (dnc support came after most of the blood, sweat, and tears were already shed and we only picked them because they were slightly better than reagan and bush and we immediately encountered buyers' remorse with clinton).
also: the choice between diet genocide and full-fat genocide is propaganda. mostly because of the virtue signaling around project 2025 and mostly evident from the intense levels of manufactured consent that encourages participating in this system as a democrat or republican only and applies intense levels of peer pressure and misinformation against participating in an other form.
we've both been forced into this dichotomy because republicans and democrats have been taking away our options and weakening our alternatives for decades; things will continue to get worse if we keep cooperating in the way they want us to.
Libs: Voting is just the start
Also libs: If you dont blindly support Kamala you're a Russian bot, also how dare you protest it makes me very uncomfortable. Shut up and let us sign this bipartisan legislation with fascists.
If you are not voting for Kamala, you are supporting Trump. That logic is pretty easy to follow.
Guess I'm a Trump supporter. Kind of weird how we got here, given I'm a center-leftist who supports the Socialist party
I wish I lived in a world that simple.
Communists wish they had the power and influence that liberals keep implying that they have.
How does this even relate to the post?
You’re trying to explain liberal behavior with logic. That was your first mistake.
“A vote for not Harris is a vote for Trump”, lmao. Absolutely laughable. Just like how Biden is the only viable candidate and a vote for Harris is a vote for Trump, right?
You know what it’s called when you’re not allowed to vote for anyone but one person?
As if Dems who have enabled the Overton ratchet for the past 50 years will give a shit about trans folk. Because clearly the current Dem admin has taken so much action against anti-trans violence and discrimination.
The same Dems who are running to the fascists as fast as possible. The same Dems enthusiastically supporting a literal genocide. The same Dems bragging about filling their cabinet with literal republicans. The same Dems who are receiving endorsements from absolute right wing war hawk neoliberal ghouls and bragging about it.
I guess y’all are just going to prove the leftists were correct again.
You know what it’s called when you’re not allowed to vote for anyone but one person?
The liberal mind cannot comprehend this (so they just downvoted you instead)
“I’m voting for the party that doesn’t actively want to kill me”
“Pfft, classic shitlib take”
I’m tired, boss
I've literally had someone ask me what makes me think I deserve to live more than Palestinian kids.
This is where we're at.
They say as if their position is any better for Palestinians either.
Right, so that's why we should let the guy who would kill Palestinian kids and trans people win. Equality
I don't like the idea of claiming a whole group I disagree with is comprised of bots or paid agents trolling to create division, but at this point, the only plausible alternatives to that are either those people are having a severe martyr complex, or just are so overly privileged that they are divorcing themselves from reality and don't/can't comprehend the consequences of what they're advocating, essentially treating this whole thing like a sports game.
Or maybe both, and are trying to throw trans people, black people, women, etc. under the bus to fuel their martyr complex in their stead.
project 2025 was created in 1980 and we've already enacted over 75% of it so far.
during that the entire time we managed to thrive despite the considerable impediments and we did it without the democrat's help. in fact: biden used to be one of our most vocal enemies.
don't let the propaganda scare you: i was there and lived through it and we did well anyways.