How do you make someone understand that being drafted by force and ordered to invade another country is not a good thing?
As title, if you have post or link any useful resource you have
The issue, from what I can tell, is that the question you've asked here doesn't match the argument you just had in comments of a post about about the Ukraine war. The argument you were trying to make is not "war bad", but specifically that Ukraine's counteroffensive is bad. You were additionally arguing that it is morally reprehensible for other countries to provide economic support to Ukraine rather than leaving them to "defend themselves".
There's a few important details that such an argument (intentionally) ignores.
The combination of your proposals that Ukraine should not proactively fight back, and that they should lose access to the resources that would allow them to continue to defend their territory end us meaning that Ukraine would not be able to effectively defend itself.
From reading your comments alongside this post, it seems that the title should actually be "how do you make someone understand that rolling over and dying is good", to which the answer is "oh fuck off mate"
The question asked in the thread title is really simple and you should try to stay on topic.
The argument you were trying to make is not “war bad”, but specifically that Ukraine’s counteroffensive is bad.
You were additionally arguing that it is morally reprehensible for other countries to provide economic support to Ukraine
You are twisting what i've said. I encourage you to read other people post better because i never made such claim.
From reading your comments alongside this post, it seems that the title should actually be “how do you make someone understand that rolling over and dying is good”, to which the answer is “oh fuck off mate”
If you believe that not being drafted by force and ordered to invade another country is the equivalent of rolling over and dying you are probably victim of the propaganda. As other have suggested here i advise you to watch drones videos from this war where they roll over and die
Let's go look at your comment history and check, shall we?
Defending yourself and launching invasions or orchestrating soldiers are two different things
It's not defending yourself if you have an army! What a great take 👍
it sounds like the government is giving out plans and commanding the army. The government of ukraine and people from ukraine are two different things. When people ask what's the alternative to send billions to the ukrainian government what they need to understand is that people can defend themself even without an authority on top of them playing war games with soldiers and possibly forcing conscript to go on missions
Oh, why did Ukraine never consider magically winning the war by sheer willpower instead of this "having an army" nonsense, smart!
I'm not twisting anything. Context matters, and the context of your post was you throwing a tantrum after around 10 different Lemmy users calling out your bad takes.
If you believe not being drafted blah blah blah
That's not what I said at all, mere moments after you accused me of "twisting" what you said. What I said, louder for the people in the back is BEING UNABLE TO FIGHT BACK IN THE ENEMY'S TERRITORY, BEING DISALLOWED TO RECEIVE FOREIGN AID AND BEING DISALLOWED TO FORM AN ACTUAL ARMY is the equivalent of rolling over and dying.
Whether it's a good thing or not depends entirely on your philosophical views. There is no objectively correct answer, and which arguments may convince someone very much depends on the values and perspectives of the person you are trying to convince.
How do you make someone realize that their philosophical views are bad then?
That's not how it works. It isn't your way or the highway
How could one convince you that your philosophical views are bad?
We don't have a way to do this. I don't think we ever will. Wish the answer was different.
The one thing I will say is that logical argument is extremely ineffective for changing people's views. Personal, emotional stories are best. The issue is that war and the draft is already highly emotionally charged, so it's gonna be hard to find something that will strike a nerve with someone who hasn't already come around on it.
Classically, you'd discuss their views with them and find the logical conclusions. Then you'd talk though if those ideas contradict with other ideas they hold. That sort of discussion/dialogue is basically all of Plato.
You can't force someone to believe something
OP, nobody in that thread yesterday was saying it was a good thing. When a country gets invaded, your responses are always going to be a matter of lesser evils. Apologies for Godwin's-Law-ing this off the bat, but it wasn't great that the Allies drafted hundreds of thousands of people and invaded Nazi Germany. It was still better than every other option.
Godwin's law itself always confused me. Of course comparisons with nazi Germany are overused, but it's literally only 80 years ago. The fact that it could happen such a short time ago means that many of the same dangers, same lessons learned are very likely still completely applicable today. The human behaviors that led to Nazi Germany are still there, in/outgroup thinking, fear of foreigners/others, etc etc etc
So yeah I don't think "Godwin's law" existing as a concept should stop valid comparisons.
It doesn't! It's just a comment on how overused the comparisons are on the internet. To quote Godwin himself:
Although deliberately framed as if it were a law of nature or of mathematics, its purpose has always been rhetorical and pedagogical: I wanted folks who glibly compared someone else to Hitler to think a bit harder about the Holocaust.
You can't make a person understand anything. If the very simple explanation of "draft the unwilling and send them to die" doesn't convince them, they don't want to be convinced. I couldn't name a single person who thinks that's good, just maybe some folks who would say it's sometimes a grim necessity. And I guess I'm in the latter camp, but shit would have to be dire.
Yeah like somebody else said, you'd have to challenge their philosophical believes that leads them to hold this opinion first.
And that in turn requires argueing them from a position not based on "I disagree, and my opinion is the correct one", but on philosophical, logical and argumentative flaws in their believe system. Which is not easy to do. At all. It's in fact very hard, made harder by the fact that our brains can see information, actively realize this information is correct and contradicts something we thought of earlier, and yet also discard said information and stick to the existing mental model instead. Meaning that even if you do everything correct, they might go "Yes, that's true" and then nothing happens, out of no ill will.
Just to throw my two cents in: This user isn’t a genuinely curious ponderer, rather they are a Russian troll trying to fish for arguments they could further use in bad faith to lick Putin’s boot.
Just read through their comment history and make your own mind. This is not genuine and most everyone is just feeding the troll.
The question itself is worth asking though. A lot of good points here, but they’d be better given in good faith for someone genuine.
"All my takes are so perfect no one but a troll could disagree with me"
They need to drag it down to personal attacks and othering because all liberals can do is justify why x and y group deserve genocide and solitary confinement for life.
The distinction between liberals is which groups there form of orthodoxy allows the military and the prisons to be directed at, they can agree on a few things though, mainly the ongoing enslavement of black americans and the genocide of palestine.
Observe above me, a liberal unable to compherhend any dissenting opinion to his liberal orthodoxy engaging in 'othering'.
Sure. But it might be useful for someone to know this before dedicating time responding genuinely. If it’s still irrelevant, great. If it might change someone’s mind about spending their time, then also great.
Only giving context here. Might be relevant to some.
It was obvious. All good.
Just to throw my two cents in: This user isn’t a genuinely curious ponderer, rather they are a Russian troll trying to fish for arguments they could further use in bad faith to lick Putin’s boot.
You sound like a victim of propaganda. Arguments to convince people that a forced draft is bad does not benefit the russian government or any other. I encourage you to read other people posts better and to think with your own brain.
My reading comprehension is just fine, your lack of capability to understand context and tendency to deal in absolutes and binaries in a world made of wide spectrums, shades of gray and unpredictability, on the other hand, does not seem to pass the smell test.
Either you argue in bad faith, are intentionally a shifting contrarian or just not competent enough to either understand the world or at the very least discuss it with others in a way that makes sense.
Do you approve of Russias invasion of Ukraine?
You can't make anyone understand anything.
You can however question their belief and motivate them to consider other options.
I know you're looking for arguments specifically for your opinion, but you should really try to avoid using arguments at all. If you set an argument, they will attack the argument and use this to dig into their existing belief on whatever is the actual topic of disagreement instead of addressing the actual topic. If you "attack" them, they will "defend". This does not change their opinion.
It's better to question them, so they have to think about why they believe in what they do. By questioning, you also show that you do not understand or agree with their opinion.
It also keeps the discussion about something that exists on their side. As soon as you introduce an argument, the discussion turns to being about something that you introduced, and that's not at all what you intended to discuss or change. Be careful with that. They will attempt to make you present arguments. Don't let them do that. It's about what they believe.
On a related note, if the US continues on its current trajectory, I predict the draft to return within the next eight years. The Selective Service System never went away. Look what congress is up to right now: Lawmakers move to automate Selective Service registration for all men
The automation is because it’s always been a felony not to register, same as it is in virtually every country with mandatory service, so to avoid the horrifically needless societal effects that come from giving someone a felony for a random crime, they simply automated it.
Basically what they did with social security years ago. Used to also be a crime to not sign up by a certain age, so they just started immediately registering all children at birth.
Wait, selective service wasn't automated? When I turned 18 my card just showed up in the mail. I didn't have to do anything to get it.
Personally, I've come to the conclusion that anyone who has the capacity and wisdom to know why wars are waged in the first place would never voluntarily fight in one.
It's reinforced my philosophical idea that wars are just a way for humanity to purge the worst of itself.
Eh. Overseas? Definitely not. If my home is invaded? You bet your ass I'm fighting the invaders.
Defending Your hoke is poorly the only way a human can cooe with horrors of war and not come out completely broken.
Being on the invading side is essentially signing for life time of ment issues since there is no good way to cope besides openly saying yeah I like going to other countries to kill people for money...
I don't have anything specific, but generally speaking those who idolize war have never seen the horrors of war. Speaking with veterans who have actually seen real combat is a good place to start.
Even though op's post history clearly points to the angle they're trying to get across, I'll answer for ya.
You educate the Russians. They're living in a closed room and are being force fed bullshit so Ukraine looks like the bad guys. Once they're educated and realize what the hell is going on, there will be some uproar to them being drafted and forced to fight Ukraine who has done nothing wrong. Maybe then, they'll stand up to Putin and take his fucking ass out and this shit can be over. At that point maybe Russia can turn it around and become a productive member of society.
perhaps should start by taking your own advice, stepping out of your echo chamber, and educating yourself on what's going on https://mearsheimer.substack.com/p/who-caused-the-ukraine-war
edit: Worth noting how despite all the screeching and downvoting, radlibs can't actually make any counterpoints to what Mearsheimer says.
I've read the contents of your link and I can see how one would fall for these arguments. But I can already point to a couple flaws:
It doesn't matter who did what before, Russia had a choice. A choice of resolving their issue in a nonviolent manner through diplomacy, espionage, subterfuge and trade. Instead they chose violence. Thus it doesn't matter that they had no inkling of wanting to conquer Ukraine (or specifically Putin) or not.
Second, they absolutely did try to install puppets and Russia-friendly governments before. They succeeded sometimes, somewhat. And the last time those puppets had to flee to Russia of all places to escape the wrath of Ukrainian people.
Third, this didn't start on February 22, 2022, but in 2014, when Russia decided to occupy Crimea. So they didn't just do it once, but on two occasions. Except the West somehow glossed over the first time on the heels of the Winter Olympics.
Russia invaded Ukraine. All anyone besides tankies and trolls need to know.
I think it's more fruitful to look at who benefits from the Ukrainian war.
Life for the average Ukrainian will not be radically different under Russian rule. Most of them will get up, go to work the same job they always have and funnel as much money as possible to those who already have it.
It just so happens that under Russian rule, Russian rulers will be making profit instead of Ukrainian rulers. The people actually fighting the wars never benefit and the ones who benefit never fight.
@InternetUser2012 I am Russian. Believe me when I say: most of us perfectly know what's going on.
We're just scared. That's it.
I would be too. Stay safe.
@drq @InternetUser2012 @index
Yes, we're scared. Of foreign jerks toppling our government again even though they established it here originally. And doing it repeatedly. And they did it in other countries. I'm with Ukrainians. But only with those who fight against NATO and not with it.
Lol. Where was this post when Russia drafted citizens to continue the invasion?
The Ukrainian "invasion" is to force Russia to withdraw from the war Russia started.
Back then the forced draft supporters where hiding behind their hypocrisy
Hunter Thompson opined that the US draft was better than the alternative.
Under the draft everyone, rich and poor, was expected to serve. With a 'volunteer army' only the poor need to go.
Another drafted vet said that draftees are more likely to speak up if civilians are targeted because the soldiers know that they are eventually going home. Lifers will obey all orders.
Under the draft everyone, rich and poor, was expected to serve.
You can't expect shit from the parasitic rich... In practice poors went anyway.
Bone spurs bitch
And when they went, they chilled at some air force base like Bush Jr
Good point on war crimes but if war crimes are part of the order, peasants will have to do it and that's how these things happens mostly anyway IMHO ie it was the order, then once they are caught it is always the "intern's" fault
Systemic racism in the US ment an inproportionate number of drafted service personnel were black as white draftees were able to get college deferments in higher numbers.
This boiled back down to the poorer economic situation of black peoples in the Civil rights era fighting for basic equality.
The draft also caused friction that increased fraggings as this racist treatment by educated white officers or NCOs were dealt with locally. Fragging was furthered by a disconnect between draftees who wanted to just survive and glory hounds who saw military service and War as some great adventure.
I'm not part of the typical group that gets drafted (presumably young men) but my argument has always been that my country doesn't own me, I'm not its property. If I want to fight for/serve my country I will, but IMO it has no right to just use me at will like a resource.
This especially goes for times like these, when everything is unaffordable, nobody can get a house, you can barely see a doctor, the police don't even bother solving most low-level crime and the rich are lining their pockets with our money. The system is not upholding its end of the social contract at all, so why should it expect any extraordinary measures from us?
The 13th amendment protects us from forced labor. No matter what the supreme court might bring up bullshit about how other countries do it.
Hey Dipshit's, maybe needless wars wouldn't start if it wasn't fucking possible to force people to fight in them.
Unless as punishment.
Same reason you cant make them understand that making and holding onto billions in profits is also not a good thing
Being drafted (which is forced labour where you additionally have a high chance of being killed or wounded) is always not okay, not just when it is done to invade another country.
You draft them and order them to invade another country.
Disclosure: I'm Israeli, I'm anti war and anti occupation. I was drafted more than 20 years ago (it's sort of mandatory here).
I think you paint it in a too much simple colours. In the war between israel and Gaza now, both armies fight for what they believe is the safety of their home, and in both armies there are high numbers if drafted (by force people). Also, in both sides, there is a level of truth that without the auctions of their army their home will be at risk. So you end up in a situation where there is an army that you don't fully agree with and you serve in it since the alternative is even worse.
It boils down to the fact that your political leaders are not having your well-being at the top of their priorities. I believe that your discussion with that someone should be about that. Not about do/don't draft but how to promote a world where there will be no need for drafting.
(I believe that the same goes to Ukrain and Russia war).
without the auctions of their army their home will be at risk
Without Hamas’s recent actions, the home of the Palestinians would be at risk?
I think you gotta recheck your math on that one
And of course the same thing applies to Israel; without the IDF and settlers’ actions in Palestine, there wouldn’t have been an October 7th in the first place.
Simply reverse the picture of what you said you'll see we are saying the same thing. From Hammas /Palestinians perspective Israel and the settlements are the same and their agenda is to drive away all Palestinians (and to be fair, some of the MKs here say that openly, even before October 7th). From Israel perspective, Hammas's declared agenda is to kill Israel/all the Jews (I mean, it is in their charter). From both perspective, there is a good drive to join the army in order to protect their loved ones.
Not that I was ever interested in being military, but I was at a lunch with two older lifelong army retirees. They kept talking about how military service broke their bodies and politicians won't cover their medical costs. These injuries were independent of any combat: It's just expected that you sell every part of yourself when you sign up.
Who wants to be 45 years old with a limp, be unable to hear a quiet conversation, and have horrible back problems?
I don’t know a single person who was in the military who has good things to say about it.
After training, sure, they’re all for it. After doing the job for real (combat or not) and getting out, not a single time that I can remember.
Show them some videos of people getting blown up by FPV drones. If that doesn't get them to think, nothing will.
Ask them to do so themselves, voluntarily.
If they refuse, the argument stands.
If they accept, you won't convince this person.
Let's start with the second part of your question? How do you make someone understand that invading another country is not a good thing?
You put the someone in a re-education camp
You start by giving up on making them understand.
War is horrific. If we deem a military is necessary to a peaceful society to protect from threats both domestic and foreign, then we should have a draft of ALL able adults, not just the poor and underprivileged. Rich folks, political folks, and otherwise connected individuals should be subject to be put on the front lines right next to the rest of us. What that means is we might rethink, as a nation, any military action. An all volunteer military would be the next most preferable one that is paid equal or greater to the national average income with full lifetime benefits including healthcare for the whole body including mind, teeth, eyes, etc., pension, free education including masters and doctorate level education, housing, as well as meeting other basic needs of life.
Anything less than that should be unacceptable.
Issue is that "old people" had to spend their time in the army, sometimes even in a foreign land (Good old time of the colonial war), so kids these day feel so privileged
I mean, we can blame the boomer for a lot of thing, but in the 60's and sometimes 70's (In many countries) young men had no option but do a military service which way involved going to fight to keep the colonies.
I didn't think it's wrong universally, for example, Ukraines current offensive into Russia.
Ukraine is using special forces for this, who are well paid professionals with strong ideological under pinnings. Those guys are into that shit.
OP is about Russian consript who got deployed in Ukraine "by mistake"
But I'd be okay with Ukraine deploying conscripts to that front.
I mean you can look at Russia as an example for how much of the economy was hurt by forcing people out of normal occupation and into service. You also have too look at their abysmal attrition rate to see its unsubstainable and if used primarily leads to worse and worse outcomes on the battle field as they less and less qualified personnel.
Appealing to morality is probably a lost cause for someone supporting a draft, they have already bought into war as a solution. Like moral arguments that Russia is choosing to sacrifice millions and set back their region is something they are already choosing to ignore, forcing people to do it minor in comparison.
You hold up your draft card and burn it.
In most cases, The people have been indoctrinated by propaganda and it's been reinforced by their friends family neighbors local government officials. They're seeing this as good versus evil. Be it forced draft or abortion bans. You can't talk somebody out of brainwashing. In most cases they will never change their minds until they find themselves on the s***** end of the stick. When their children get drafted or die in the military, or the wife gets raped and impregnated, they say this is horrible and you go wait weren't you telling us you felt the other way? And they go I just didn't know. But they did know people told them they just refused to believe it. You're basically trying to fight religion with reason, and you can't do that.
Its a tough one. A pro draft stance I have only seen with the extremes. Usually with the right its nationalism related, real x should be eager beavers when their time comes to serve. On the left its hey the sons of the leaders and the leaders themselves should have representation in the ware zones. I sorta get the last one as we have an all "volunteer" force that has benefits for signup akin to if you coutry had somewhat decent social safety nets along with training and decent pay. So it has no real draw for the well to do. Thing is that when there was a draft the kept their cowardly progency out with things like bone spurs or such. So they had docs make up medical excuses while they called the ones who were plucked to go die suckers and losers.
Draft them into playing chess with you. Then say "imagine if this was a real army".
as an anarchist I don't really feel like dying for the tyranical state for obvios reasons
The founding fathers thought that standing armies make any leader a tyrant.
Really telling all the radlibs are suddenly pro-draft. Always proimperialist, that bunch. I wonder why they arent in the boots themselves.
So, veteran here. I've tried to talk people out of joining the military or at least trying to avoid jobs with high probability of seeing combat. Usually the result is they just start prying about what combat is like and make statements about how much they want to experience it.
Another tack I haven't tried but it might be more effective, is to describe how miserable it is to have the stench of a burn pit wafting over you, always wondering if the distant gunfire will move in your direction, being stuck manning a 24/7 watch where if even one person who can do that job dies or is otherwise incapacitated you will be stuck doing 12hr shifts instead of 8. Then you get back home and have to fight tooth and nail for benefits from the country that fucked your life up in the first place.
War is hell, coming home is hell, forcing that on someone can only be justified if they are literally at home fighting off an invading force.
Empire propaganda must be real good if this commenter has to say this out loud
It's not the propaganda that's good, SunZu.
It's the poverty. Tens of millions of young people in this country have no other way out of debt or to move upward economically.
I believe abolish someone rights is never a good thing. If you are fighting against someone that wants to take these away you have even more reason to respect these rights and stand for them.
I see you'd rather die kneeling than standing.