What's the difference between asking someone title or someone's pronouns ?
I never got why conservative got crazy if you specify a pronoun, but at the same time expect you to specify whether its, it's Mr/Ms/Miss (and often don't take Dr as an answer), looks like the same question
They lost their minds back in the 60s/70s when women started using Ms instead of Mrs/Miss. Even into the 1990s, some conservative men were still butthurt about it. Rush Limbaugh was particularly offended over Ms Rodham-Clinton’s title and hyphen.
They lost the battle over women’s titles and the pronoun thing is their new hill to die on.
This here - this isn't anything new, people just forgot that they're living through the same shit over and over again.
Add to that, how DARE a woman choose something, anything!
Because they don't actually care about pronouns. What they are angry about is transgender and non-binary people being accepted as normal.
Everything else, the pronouns, the bathrooms, the medication, the sports, everything, is just pos-hoc justification for their real belief, which is that transgender and non-binary people should not be accepted as normal.
The cruelty is the point. Everything else is means to their ends.
It pretty much boils down to the fact that they are deathly afraid of change of any kind, because they don’t know what to think about anything until some authority figure tells them.
Hey, that's not fair. They had authority figures tell them to be afraid and hateful, they aren't waiting on it anymore.
Conservatives (with a lowercase 'c', I'm not talking about Republicans) prefer a series of small incremental changes over a longer period of time while progressives believe in big leaps. Both are valid viewpoints depending on the issue, sometimes we should take things slowly but other times we needed that change yesterday.
Asking titles has been around for a long time so conservatives are ok with it. It also conforms to their existing ideas about gender and roles in society.
Asking for pronouns is a relatively new thing and the whole debate around them is a big and sudden change (at least as far as they see), and it turns everything they believed in on its head.
Of course, there are people who are just plain hateful but I think there's more nuance to it than that most of the time.
I've always thought "it's okay because it's old" is a pretty poor metric. It's cheap but it's accuracy isn't very good.
It's not really about that, sometimes conservatives also agree that a change is needed but they disagree on how to get there.
They see the current state as something that was built up naturally over a long period of time and everything has its place for a reason. Sometimes those reasons are not apparent immediately and making a sudden change will bite us in the long run in an unexpected way, maybe 100 years down the road.
They might agree that the status quo is bad but they think change should come gradually in small steps, allowing things to settle down a bit, and reflect on the consequences before moving forward. They might say that at least we understand the situation and the rules of what we have now, we shouldn't stray too far ahead into the unknown.
For example, imagine that you live in a country under foreign rule. Should you start a war of independence and risk getting crushed or should you try to force concessions gradually over time and risk not getting anywhere? This is roughly the debate that took place in my home country in the 1800s.
While it's true that the extremes are that conservatives want time to stay still while progressives want to burn the world down and reform everything in a single day, but most of the time people are somewhere in between, or even change their positions depending on the issue.
Not conservative.
I’ve gotten very very used to being asked for titles on forms and the like. I’ve gotten used to respecting other peoples’ pronouns.
I have not gotten used to being asked for my own, and I don’t like it.
I understand that you can look just like me while having a gender identity that does not match my own—some men like to present in a feminine manner sometimes while still being men, and some people are non-binary, third gender, agender, etc. but might still dress in a very feminine way for whatever reason. To cover all your bases, ask pronouns, because guessing “she/her” at a feminine presentation in a body with a feminine shape won’t always be right. If you want to maximize your chances of being correct, you need to ask.
But whenever I’m asked, I also wonder if I’ve presented in a way that signals anything other than “woman” (which frequently but does not always line up with feminine presentations from feminine bodies). Did I just totally fail at presenting the way I want to and if forced to assume you’d guess I’m third gender, or are you being inclusive and considering that people who present like me aren’t always women? It’s the privileged, cis-woman version of “did you have to ask because I failed hard at passing, or did I pass and you just ask everyone this because not everyone conforms to the gender binary?” I’m really used to my gender being assumed and assumed correctly, and am not comfortable with people being unsure or even assuming wrong. I’m basically getting a microdose of what many non-cis, non-binary, and/or nongenderconforming people have to deal with, and I don’t like it.
I also understand it is probably for the benefit of most people (I’m aware of some non-cis people also disliking people asking pronouns, with reasons being along the lines of “please assume, I’m a binary trans person and asking makes me worry I don’t pass” or “I’m in the closet right now and asking my pronouns makes me choose between outing myself and misgendering myself” and it’s worth finding some solution for this) for asking to be normalized, so I let my personal discomfort and dislike go. After I ask if they asked pronouns because they honestly thought it’s super likely I don’t use she/her in which case oh god what do I change so I can make the assumption be that I use she/her, or if it’s just them trying to be inclusive and cover all bases which is good and respectable.
It might also just be that the person asking you just always asks. Because as you mentioned, only asking when someone "looks" trans or non-binary can be rather invalidating. So to avoid that, they just don't assume.
For your last paragraph, I'm personally of the opinion that, short of de-gendering the language entirely, a good solution would basically just be a gender/pronoun badge, but stylised to be more easily readable from a distance. Like a bracelet or a necklace or something of that nature. That would eliminate the need to ask in the vast majority of cases, because the person would be wearing something that unambiguously signals the answer. And it would be completely detached from the presentation of their body, which might not match their gender, or their clothing, which probably shouldn't be gendered anyway. Changing pronouns, for whatever reason like coming out or just being fluid, would just be a matter of swapping out the single symbol.
It's not really feasible, of course, but even as a queer person I find asking and being asked quite clunky. But whenever I go into LGBT+ or geek spaces, I find that wearing a badge just sidesteps the whole issue.
Damn. You’ve broken that down in a way that’s made me realize exactly why I don’t like being asked my pronouns (without me previously having actually thought through this exercise). Thank you for that! I’ll get over my discomfort with the idea, check my privilege, and answer the question next time.
Yes it's called etiquette and respect. But they don't want to respect queer people, so it's not hypocrisy to them, it's "tradition".
I would say that conservatives are generally older folks. They spent their whole life learning things one way and then got to their mid to late life to only be told everything they learned was wrong or a lie. Now they don’t want to bother learning a new set of lies to only be told later on, that too was wrong. The younger generation needs to grandfather them in and let them pass on and only worry about the younger generations.
We need to get away from this thinking that conservatives are old and will die off to be replaced by young liberals/progressives
This was the line of thinking in the 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's and probably before
Many people become more conservative as they age, and many people are conservative their entire lives
Tolerance and acceptance comes with interacting with people and getting out of your isolated safe spaces - not by being young
I don't bother with either. If I mislabel, then it's by accident and not meant as an offense, and if you get mad anyway, then there isn't much for us to talk about anyways. It hasn't come up yet, so I'm not going to worry about it.
I would now refer to every male over 40 as madame and see who gets offended.
Hey gurl, ey!
I prefer being hailed with a greeting of 'oi oi saveloy!'
Disagree. Prefix appears on almost all forms.
Prefix, last name, first name, other names, DoB.
I think this largely depends on what region you live in. In many parts, it’s still very common, while others it’s more limited to filling out forms.
It’s choice. The problem is choice.
Seriously, not channeling the matrix here. You choose your pronouns. So they have to ask because of something you chose. And they don’t think pronouns are actually choosable. They think gender == sex and it’s a simple binary.
They tolerate Miss / Mrs because it’s a simple matter of not knowing. The person either is or isn’t married and you have to ask because you don’t know, not because you want to understand their unique identity.
Small-c conservatives don’t believe in unique identities. They want everyone to know their place. It’s really just another way of looking at the world. Some people prefer freedom with all its flaws. Some people prefer predictability with all its flaws.
And yes, fuck Republicans.
Because nobody is saying that their title is “Bunny.”.
The pronoun rage is all secondary to targeting trans people. It's less a matter of ideology and more about unifying their voters around a scapegoat.
Kind of an evolution of homophobia
Remember kids. Evolution doesn't dictate that all changes "improve" the organism. They just increase the likelihood of survivability. Continuing the hate for just "gay" people was losing popularity and would have killed the conservative movement had it not evolved into a more esoteric form of hate.
Yeah, if you've been around long enough the arguments are the same.
I don’t think most conservatives draw a meaningful distinction between being gay and being trans. These are folks who still view homosexuality as a mental illness and I’m fairly certain they see transsexualism as a closely-related mental illness, similar to the way schizophrenia is closely related to schizoaffective disorder.
This is exactly it. Trans people just happen to be their “other” at the moment.