Lemmy.world offically enshrines the siteadmins' right to futher remove "misinformation" at will after an admin overthrew its vegan comm.
Update to Terms of Service + New Bylaws (Protections for users) - Lemmy.World
Previous Hexbear post on this issue by @ButtBidet@hexbear.net
I'm not going to weigh in on pets particularly because I don't know enough, I'm also not vegan. I do however want to remark that you can sense the meat eating guilt and reactionary emotional defensiveness in a lot of this stuff. People feel very attacked and very defensive.
There is an underlying feeling deep down that it is wrong but because they personally enjoy it and get happy hormones when eating the topic triggers a massive emotional response.
Speculation: Eating food is probably one of the only times some people truly genuinely feel happy and is responsible for the massive defensive reaction when anyone suggests food habits should be changed. I suspect that the non-vegans that do not react poorly to the topic have much stronger sources of happiness that aren't food.
Eating food is probably one of the only times some people truly genuinely feel happy
ha ha
I'm not going to weigh in on pets particularly because I don't know enough, I'm also not vegan.
I wish more people did this about things
In hindsight it sort of sounds like I think you need to be vegan to weigh in on that. Those should be two separate things. I just wanted to mention that I'm not for the sake of the post itself. The pet part is just genuinely because I've looked at literally no research. I avoid forming opinions on shit I know nothing about.
That's a very interesting idea!
Eating food is probably one of the only times some people truly genuinely feel happy and is responsible for the massive defensive reaction when anyone suggests food habits should be changed
Yes, it's like literally saying "i don't want you to be happy", i have that too, albeit only about bugs (but seriously i did almost ended a friendship over that, fortunately they weren't serious about it and backed off when they realised i was).
I have thoughts so strap in. This is a bit of a rant trigger for me.
Food is awesomely important to humans. Every culture I have looked at (layperson, not anthropologist so there's that) has some sort of food-hospitality ritual. Festivities have particular foods associated with them, you eat and drink certain things at weddings, funerals, birthdays, season changes, whatever. In houses it is often the kitchen which becomes the center of activity and socialisation. Food is probably involved to some degree in the vast majority of good memories you have, from meals with family, self indulgence after a hard or stressful day, meetings with friends, celebrations of achievement etc.
This isn't that surprising, we are meat and it needs sustaining. A huge amount of effort in any individual's life goes into securing and eating food.
But if you're the kind of person that doesn't view the world through a systemic lens, that looks at structural issues and ideological hegemony as a series of individual moral failings. Well someone raising veganism is obviously doing so to say that you are a bad person and you should feel guilty about all of your good memories. You see this shit directly, people constantly accuse vegans of having moral superiority complexes and wanting to shame people. Research says people vastly overestimate how negatively vegans judge non vegans. Antivegans also conveniently forget that almost every single vegan was non-vegan and thus was complicit in carnism until they were given the chance to change by someone else's advocacy and education.
Generally the data say that people who anticipate negative judgement less from vegans are more likely to rate vegans as more moral/more positively. Notably this is true even in the absence of any actual interactions. The lashing out is massively driven by a guilt complex caused by a garbage understanding of how human societies and systemic evil actually work.
This makes me wonder if there is an approach to selling veganism that offers the same approach marxism makes when it comes to socialism - not being a moralist about it. I suspect selling to those people would be more effective without the preconceived beliefs they have about vegans and moral judgement. Maybe a specific spinoff branch of veganism without the name vegan, named intentionally to get people to ask what it is. It would potentially enable a foot in the door because it wouldn't trigger the reactions.
Generally the data say that people who anticipate negative judgement less from vegans are more likely to rate vegans as more moral/more positively.
don't even need to see the study to know that this is true, this is pretty much how confirmation bias and what not work, when you dislike something/someone you will notice and remember the bad experiences a lot more than the normal and good experiences even if there are more good experiences than bad and vice versa. Here is my enlightened centrist take: there are some weird and very annoying vegans on one side and on the other you have a swarming mass of psychotic carnists who take great pleasure in this fact and anyone who takes the carnists side in the online struggle needs to look deep within themselves
I wonder if this also applies to racism, sexism, etc.? Like if people who associate their positions on the hierarchy with happy memories (relationship swith their relatives, hanging out with a group of guys after school, etc.). So when you attack their position of power, they take it really personally. The "white guilt" stuff they spout is pure projection.
Now I'm wondering about how bullying the other manifests itself. It's pretty common for white people to bond by using racism. Perhaps some chuds think fondly of the time they made fun of some gay person with their group of friends. When you tell them stuff like that is wrong, they flip the fuck out.
absolutely. a huge part of the material benefit that bigots get out of being bigots is social standing and social closeness
this will absolutely be used to go after socialists on that instance (if there are even any remaining after everything .world has done lol)
-31•
We reserve the right to remove information that could cause imminent physical harm to any living being. This includes topics like conversion therapy, unhealthy diets, and dangerous medical procedures. Information that could result in imminent physical harm to property or other living beings may also be removed.
And people pointing out the Democrats are complicit in Genocide apparently.
physical harm to property
You can't harm property, fuckheads
that user is the most stubborn person I've ever seen, every time I've ever seen them they're getting downvoted and being lied about shout out to them lol
From a mod:
Israel has been committing war crimes in Gaza, the West Bank, Lebanon and Syria for DECADES before Biden and Harris held political office. They are not to blame here, Israel is. Bibi is. Their crimes will continue regardless of support from the US or who is President.
Blame the actual perpetrators, not those you imagine are involved via six degrees of separation.
critical thinking is officially banned on .world
They can’t even write well.
holy fuck some moron used chat gpt to try and be anti-vegan good god https://lemmy.world/comment/12033479
Good on those posters to spot the fake citations.
yeah with the anti-vegan vibes of that thread I'm surprised to see there were enough people with integrity to check those claims out
As someone who has worked in science, this passes the sniff test.
As someone who also has “worked in science” I find it incredibly cringe to read something like this. It just makes me read it in the voices of all the dumbass scientist coworkers I’ve had over the years who think they’re uniquely qualified to solve X problem because they have a bachelors and a few years on the job.
Basically a long-winded way of invoking Dunning-Kruger
eh i get it, normally I'd agree but the whole vibe of that thread was very anti-vegan and i think they were trying to give themselves credibility in an attempt to sidestep concern trolling by the shitheads in that thread.
imagine wasting your time and fragile ego on this fucking nonsense lmao
world.mins writing a 20 paragraph legaleese document ensuring no vegan will ever touch them in there safe space ever again.
hey this could be used in these ways you didn't consider which will hurt the community - users
interesting we didn't think about any of that, we'll consider it lw admins
Rooki is the same admin forcing the MBFC bot on every news post.
They refuse to listen to the community. Their way or the highway.
Who needs fed when you got admins like this? Probably still a
Embarrassing that people continue to use these instances
Apparently news is now gonna say no for now?
But bot still on every post so expecting rooki to say no it can't be turned off
Im tempted to make a world account just to ram my face into this thread in particular. Just no thoughts in this persons head other than
. Information justs slides right off like a tab of butter on a slide during a hot summer afternoon.I believe this study. It’s true that vegans say their vegan cats are healthier than other cats.
Vegan cats being the thing that tears .world apart is really funny because I've seen it irl and wouldn't be surprised if ya'll already had that struggle session here.
Not trying to start that debate here if not, but among most vegan groups I've been part of, many people had cats for years before adopting a vegan lifestyle in every other way, so it becomes a "don't ask, don't tell" situation. Otherwise, you get into endless arguments about how the cat havers aren't really vegan. But the non-cat havers offer no real individual solutions and just tip toe around the idea that the cat haver should kill them to balance out the moral calculus, or give them to someone else to wash their hands of the issue while not materially affecting anything.
If you ever want to destroy a vegan community, ask if you should feed your cat a vegan diet or more generally about taking care of meat-eating animals at all.
Doubly funny, in an absurd way, is that .world will so fiercely advocate for their kitties, but ignore the deaths of humans that their favorite politicians are causing.
plus it was done by a pro vegan group
It was done by a uni. Fuck off, shit.just.works poster.
Guy (not OP, I mean the one from .world), fucking read the lit review. The unhealthiness of vegan cat food is based on vibes, not published evidence. There's also a lot of back research that vegan cat food is fine, it's not just this one study. Again, READ THE FUCKING STUDUY.
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0284132
To study health outcomes in cats fed vegan diets compared to those fed meat, we surveyed 1,418 cat guardians, asking about one cat living with them, for at least one year. Among 1,380 respondents involved in cat diet decision-making, health and nutrition was the factor considered most important. 1,369 respondents provided information relating to a single cat fed a meat-based (1,242–91%) or vegan (127–9%) diet for at least a year. We examined seven general indicators of illness. After controlling for age, sex, neutering status and primary location via regression models, the following risk reductions were associated with a vegan diet for average cats: increased veterinary visits– 7.3% reduction, medication use– 14.9% reduction, progression onto therapeutic diet– 54.7% reduction, reported veterinary assessment of being unwell– 3.6% reduction, reported veterinary assessment of more severe illness– 7.6% reduction, guardian opinion of more severe illness– 22.8% reduction. Additionally, the number of health disorders per unwell cat decreased by 15.5%. No reductions were statistically significant. We also examined the prevalence of 22 specific health disorders, using reported veterinary assessments. Forty two percent of cats fed meat, and 37% of those fed vegan diets suffered from at least one disorder. Of these 22 disorders, 15 were most common in cats fed meat, and seven in cats fed vegan diets. Only one difference was statistically significant. Considering these results overall, cats fed vegan diets tended to be healthier than cats fed meat-based diets. This trend was clear and consistent.
Not to be a stick in the mud here, but... what? How on earth does "cats fed vegan diets tended to be healthier than cats fed meat-based diets" follow after "considering these results overall"? You mean the results that weren't statistically significant? Those results? And that one statistically significant disease difference? It was for kidney problems, and the vegan cats had more problems than the non-vegan ones (table 6).
If there's a case for feeding cats a vegan diet, this ain't it.
I'm actually genuinely surprised that cats do that well on a vegan diet. It doesn't have to be healthier than meat to be an upgrade—if it's on par with meat and no animal dies to make it, it's a clear winner.
I didn't think we were there yet with cat food, but the study seems to suggest we are, even if they try to draw a stronger conclusion from their data than they can actually justify.
READ THE STUDY!
Evidence concerning ingredient bioavailability and interactivity can indeed be lacking, but to our knowledge there is no published evidence that such concerns are any greater for non-animal-based ingredients, than for animal-based ingredients.
This is why feeding trials are considered the gold standard to ensure nutritional soundness of new formulations [15, 16]. The health status of cats maintained on different diets has been the subject of limited studies to date. In 2021 Dodd et al. [17] published a Canadian-based survey of 1,325 cat guardians, of whom 1,026 described their cat(s) diet. These included 187 (18%) vegan cats. More guardians of vegan cats reported their cat to be in very good health, and fewer were reported to have gastrointestinal and hepatic disorders. These cats were more often reported as having ideal body condition scores, than those fed a meat-based diet.
FFS don't skim the study. 3% of non vegan cats had kidney problems, 4% of vegan cats did.
So you're saying that vegan cats had roughly the same health as non vegan cats and we're not destroying our planet in industrial livestock murder. Sounds great!
The biggest issue with Reddit and Facebook was that they let stuff like this stick around it and eventually consume it.
It’s a good policy imho, and I’m happy to see it
Science should prevail
Because the priority for them is engagement, regardless of how harmful the content could be to people. Engagement doesn’t mean shit here because nobody’s profiting off of it.
Am I really hearing this shit from a .world user?
@Rose 3•
As noted in my post on the “moderation incident”, by adding more subjectivity to the rules, you are opening the door to even more instance moderator misconduct. There is already evidence of how that would go.
Rooki felt it right to intervene in the !vegan cat food thread (and got a pat on the back with the new rules made to justify their actions), then not only took no issue with comments like “Meat is not something diabetics need to worry about.” but also fueled the fire in the same thread by saying “To be honest linking something like meat to death of people is like saying everybody that breathed air died.”
So much for taking action against harmful dietary advice.
That post is wild just carnist after carnist whining
::: spoiler Concern troll Carnist People are out of their minds. It’s a cult. Thankfully, mostly constrained to the west.
Famously some British folks invented caring about animal rights in 1940 or whenever. There has never been any large or long lived philosophical movements against the eating of animals outside the west. Certainly there are no religions that take non violence to mean that people should eat plant based. None at all. Outside britian and the vegan cult that is.
Their stated goal is to develop lemmy compatible software called sublinks
important to mention they're making it in java lol
lol losers
also random aside does your server have anything to do with the discord server in this post? https://lemmygrad.ml/post/232172
found that post the other day and seeing your instance tag made me think of it and now I'm curious lol
also also what frontend is your instance using?
Being allergic to cats has saved me from so many arguments, both online and off.
the leftism leaving people's bodies when veganism is mentioned
Meanwhile, those same cis people when they find out there's HRT in their meat: "Nuh uh, it's the soy"
Hope lemmy.wehrmacht follows their leader. Also hope you repost this comment too, fascist losers
Libs stop making us look cool challenge level: impossiable
The moral panic over hexbear is so cringe. Like there are a few people that post here I think are a bit cooked, but it's honestly a low % than world or whatever. They seem to think you're some hoard of psy-ops agents champing at the bit to round people up and Dirlewanger Brigade them.
Mostly it's just shitposts and bitching about the usa which is entirely justified as it's an evil military empire...
This is insane. I mean .world was already a cesspool but jfc
rule 8 bro
What about it? However you read that rule, LW isn't accessible from Hexbear.
i was mostly trying to say it was a lame post that had no relevance
the original post has 400 upvotes. and besides its the .world admins anything they post is dunk tank worthy
okay i didn't know that, thought it was just a random infighting post
I'm not sorry for causing this.
Also holy fuck if someone says "obligate carnivore" to me one more fucking time I am going to reach through the screen and suffocate them by stuffing a head of cauliflower down their throats.
Anyway, one reading of this TOS update bans discussions of meat eating as it advocates immanent harm and is an unhealthy diet.
I doubt any of the people yelling obligate carnivore like it's an incantation to banish vegans actually know what it means.
You should have more faith in yourself. I am certain they don't
Seeing as vegans are definitional proof that humans are not obligate carnivores...
If it isn't a cat or a snake or a spider or some shit like that it isn't an obligate carnivore. Just keep asking them if they are a cat snake or spider and if not to shut the fuck up.
The wrong person is apologising here. You did nothing wrong.(lol I misread what you wrote)Also I have zero interest in non-vegan's opinions on vegan matters. If someone knowingly and calmly get involved in the industrial murder and exploitation of animals, everything they say about the issue is just concern trolling. It's like the millions of carnist Westerners who hold strong opinions on PETA.
my dbzero account was purging the science deniers and argued with rooki over it.