Electric Cars Are Suddenly Becoming Affordable
Electric Cars Are Suddenly Becoming Affordable
More efficient manufacturing, falling battery costs and intense competition are lowering sticker prices for battery-powered models to within striking distance of gasoline cars.
I paid too much for my EV, but am glad to see the prices come down for future buyers. When the price is competitive with ICE vehicles, I think we’ll see rapid adoption.
I got my EV used, and in three years I've already saved more on gas than I paid for it.
EVs are so much cheaper to maintain and operate; no gas, no oil changes, no transmission, no sparkplugs or timing belts. If the sale prices are close, the total cost of ownership will be massively in favor of the EV.
Wait WHAT? EVs don’t require regular maintenance like a normal car does? That’s SICK (if true)
Modern cars in general are cheaper to operate. Have had a hybrid for 7 or 8 years. Other than annual oil changes and one change of tires, it has been zero maintenance. Still on the original brake pads thanks to regen braking (which EVs also benefit from, but the extra weight forces more frequent use of friction brakes.)
Are you not including the cost of electricity into your estimate? It is cheaper then gas manly because it is not taxed out the wazoo yet.
Which is why automakers and big oil have fought so hard against bringing down the cost of EVs.
Same
fuck you NYT, define affordable... Nope, that's not affordable.
They implicity, but clearly, define it: the same price as gasoline cars.
Also, Become != Are. It even notes, right in the blurb there, that they're getting there, not that they are there.
Stuff like this is starting to make its way into automotive youtubers feeds now. I just saw one where he picked up a Model S P85D for like $10k or something crazy because it was "insurance totaled". The issue was they'd let the battery die in the lot and some idiots didn't think to charge it.
But think about the american car makers that produce a lot of their stuff abroad anyways! Who's going to stuff their pockets?? God forbid you get cheap chinese EVs!
those will start at ~$25,000.00 if they get sold in the USA.
Recently, Mr. Lawrence said, customers have been snapping up used Teslas for a little over $20,000, after applying a $4,000 federal tax credit.
3rd sentence?
I'll share the rest because the paywall:
Carmakers including Tesla, Ford, General Motors and Stellantis, the owner of Jeep, have announced plans for electric vehicles that would sell new for as little as $25,000.
More than half of the used electric vehicles on the market sell for less than $30,000, according to Recurrent, a research firm that focuses on the used E.V. market.
Idk, you can get a used Tesla for like $25k now.
I don't want a used Tesla, though.
Be careful with those, chances are it's an old fleet vehicle and those are not always the most well taken care of.
Over 20k used, meanwhile China's getting literally half the price new. But dems and republicans have joined hands in stopping this boon for the climate.
Yeah when you use literal slaves instead of union labour, costs are down. I'm not willing to trade my humanity to save a few dollars and a debatable improvement to the climate disaster (I doubt the manufacture and extraction practices in China are anything approaching clean).
IMO this is a rare case of Washington doing the right thing.
Edit For the benefit of anyone at risk of being fooled by authoritarian propaganda, there is a plethora of evidence of slave labour used throughout the Chinese economy, from uyghur muslims to foxcons indentured workers. It's prevelent through the supply chain for many, many industries, and that alone warrants discentives on imports until such time as these practices end.
To suggest that individual businesses, who are built within this system, may be somehow operating outside of it is clearly absurd, however it's simply not possible for a layman to unpack and debate the supply chains and business practices hidden behind the bamboo curtain.
The discourse below is an example of how bad faith arguments can create doubt, by employing strawman arguments and ignoring actual points raised to create the appearance of being reasonable by hiding behind "citation needed" type arguments. If you read through it, you'll see that the propagandist doesn't once engage in anything I've actually said - this is intentional, they do not want to be in a position where any claim they make can be contested, nor do they actually want to directly contest any claim I've made. Rather they only want to sow doubt in what I'm saying, which takes considerably more effort to discredit than any actual claim.
Need a source for these EV factories using slave labor.
And by all means lets debate on the climate impact of these vehicles, what parts are you saying are a problem? While Americas been manufacturing more and more combustion trucks and SUVs, China has been leaving us in the green tech dust, ramping up renewable energy and EV production.
The Chinese cars that are half price don't include any safety features, have a theoretical top speed of 80 mph, and a battery range of 100 miles. Those ones would never make it to the US even without tariffs.
Where in America can you legally drive over 80mph?
Sounds perfect for my needs.
The Chinese cars that are half price don’t include any safety features, have a theoretical top speed of 80 mph
I had an s10 like that.
I realize this isn't why you mentioned the range of those vehicles, but I like to point out where I can that only a single digit percentage of all driven trips are more than fifty miles.
More to the point of the thread, if people could get over this reason for not buying electric, there could be much cheaper options by halving the battery capacities in these vehicles. Of course that would mean the manufacturers would have to make them, which seems unlikely. Worthwhile to point out though I think.
Yes it includes safety features, and 80 is plenty
Chinese EVs subsidized with prison labor and CCP funds to undercut the market and stagnate long-term innovation, what a boon to humanity!
Those damn Chinese prisoners working in advanced technological factories.
China investing in their EV companies is a good thing. Undercut the absolute fuck out of this overpriced gas guzzling SUV market.
Yes but compared to gas cars that's no difference
But can they make them much much bigger? I hope so! It worked for ICE cars right? Just make them as big as a house and watch every day as they park north, south, east and west bound on the various freeways for the night.
Canionero!
I mean, the Kia EV9 seems pretty big. But I think you mean Ford Excursion big.... and man.... GM has a hummer of a truck for you. Also, no one is buying it.
The fact that VW's ID Buzz doesn't come with a Westfalia trim is a travesty.
They're already fucking huge. Every EV in the US is an SUV or pickup. You want a small electric commuter in 2024, your only option is an ebike.
Most of those 'SUVs' are what we used to would call 'station wagon' or 'compact wagon'.
Ioniq 5, Kia EV6, Mach-E, Model 3, Lyriq, and Blazer EV I would say aren't particularly 'big' but all are 'SUV'. You have Model 3 which is not even 'technically' an SUV. You also have the Leaf, the Niro EV, the Mini Cooper SE, which are all relatively smaller.
The models that are typical 'large' SUVs are relatively few. The EV9, the Rivian, maybe the Model X are the ones off the top of my head that are "Ford Explorer" big or larger. Yes the pickup trucks are blighted by the same "cosplay as a big rig" design language inflicted on the ICE pickups, except for CyberTruck which somehow managed to be even worse.
The Leaf is a reasonable size, the Ioniq 6 as well I think.
Seriously, I just want an EV Sportscar. Give me something Z car sized, RWD and no extras.
Polestar 2, Tesla Model 3, and Ioniq 6 are all sedans.
Literally what I'm waiting for. I live alone, I have a 5km commute with crappy public transport. Too far to walk, bike in winter sucks, so some closed space for one or two people that can transport a bit of groceries is the largest I want. Smart sized, but affordable please.
Im legit waiting for the Renault Master electric van for my next campervan build project.
Good, they should be far cheaper than gasoline cars. America is losing to China when it comes to EVs, and many other things.
America is losing to China
China is the largest car market in the world. Can you image how fucked we would all be if Chinese bureaucrats were as fossil fuel pilled as the assholes running DC?
America isn't losing to China. America is losing to climate change.
...and I couldn't be happier about it. The age of American/European imperialism is coming to an end after centuries of suffering imposed on poorer nations. Not that I have high hopes for China or anything, but it's HARD to do worse than US or Western Europe...
Are they all crossovers or trucks with a massive touchscreen and spyware?
Some US cars have EULAs that include you if you walk past the car.
You know in 2021 I thought that the MSM was deliberately ignoring the issues with EVs and promoting overly rosy timelines as part of a political agenda.
After seeing the massive amount of FUD they published about EVs over the past year, I think they are just bad at their jobs.
It feels like the media covers EVs based on vibes versus doing actual research. As a result they've consistently publish articles that are either borderline nonsense hopium or complete doomerism.
IMO I still think hybrids will be instrumental tech over the next decade. Those 300 mile EVs often get much worse range in weather conditions that are common in many parts of the country. It's also simply going to take considerable time for fast charging infrastructure to become ubiquitous enough to truly address range anxiety.
They write articles for people worried about 300 miles ranges who drive 40 miles a day the vast, vast majority of days.
Is it any wonder the coverage is awful?
How frequently would someone need to make a 200+ round trip in lousy weather that cuts into the range for them to have a valid reason? Once a month? Every two weeks?
What about people that go to temote areas that don't even have gas stations? How often do they need to go?
I get what you're saying but yeah it is surprising. It would be one thing if their coverage was bad as in the sense the author doesn't do legwork or add anything of value when compared to some YouTuber. However their coverage feels like it's written by someone who doesn't particularly like cars and doesn't really follow this stuff outside of when their editor assigns it to them.
IMO I still think hybrids will be instrumental tech over the next decade. Those 300 mile EVs often get much worse range in weather conditions that are common in many parts of the country. It's also simply going to take considerable time for fast charging infrastructure to become ubiquitous enough to truly address range anxiety.
People waaaay overestimate how much they drive. The average person drives about 30 miles per day. 99.5% of trips are under 100 miles. Cold weather can drop the range by about 25%. That is still perfectly fine for 99.5% of trips. You know what country also has pretty cold weather? Norway. They also happen to be the country with the highest percentage of EVs sold.
Fast charging is only needed for the extremely rare occasion that you are traveling over 250 miles. Heck, even a level 1 charger is fine for the majority of people most of the time. And the fast charge network is built out pretty decently already so that you are almost certainly within range of one.
There are absolutely some issues with EVs though. It certainly is not all sunshine and rainbows. While a level 1 charger is perfectly fine for most people, many do not even have that. Most apartment buildings do not have outlets you can use in your parking spot. That is a pretty large chunk of the population that would have to rely on fast chargers. That is a lot pricier.
And while you may be within range of a fast charger, you might not be by one that works. A good third of Electrify America's don't work. Some that do, do not give you the full speed.
Charging speed still does suck for road trips. Sure, an Ioniq can charge to 80% within 20 minutes but that is with a station that can push 350 kW which are pretty damn rare.
Companies also seem to want to make EVs futuristic looking with zero knobs and also lock you into their ecosystem to harvest your data. They claim it is to help you more accurately calculate range and to be able to find a charger. That's horseshit. Just because something is battery powered does not mean it needs that shit. It would be one thing if they had competent software engineers but they largely don't.
I’ve had a used ev for 4 years and have about 110k miles on the battery. I drove for years in Houston, with 110 degree summers and recently drove a season in Winter Park in the -10 to 0 degree weather for the season and didn’t have any issues with range or charging. You do notice minor differences, but nothing is a surprise and nothing is unmanageable. There is a lot more FUD out there than is warranted from actual performance.
Our infrastructure also needs upgrades to support electric vehicles. For example, you literally can't get one unless you have a garage or driveway, which many people- especially those who don't have the luxury of buying a house, don't have. If your only option is dealing with street parking good luck.
I have a friend in exactly this situation. He just goes to a nearby supercharger every week. It’s not that unreasonable
Not really a requirement to charge at home, many cities have fast chargers at grocery stores so you can charge while you shop. This still needs to be expanded yes, but there are alternatives to home charging. It’s still the best and most convenient option if you have the option though.
While I buy the logic of a hybrid, I think they should have been instrumental tech over the last decade. Where were all these legacy manufacturers when Toyota had proven technology with high sales? Legacy manufacturers were regressive then, and are regressive now that EVs are ready to take over
I blame a lot of that on stock manipulation hype.
I think they are just bad at their jobs.
There are a huge number of aspired investigative journalists who weren't good enough, and ended up writing niche interest pieces for hobbyist publications they don't actually care much about. This was the reason there was such a commotion over game's journalism around 2015, but the same problems exist elsewhere too.
I agree, but with a small caveat. I think that a lot of 2010s bloggers were wannabe authors who only got into journalism because it was a lot easier to break into blogging versus literature in that era.
I'm extremely bullish on Edison Motors diesel-electric hybrid truck conversions
So am I. But that is a niche application. Even they half admit it's not suitable for 'common use' And it remains to be seen if they can pull it off.
I'm far more a fan of their right to repair and using common everyday off the shelf parts to make those repairs easier and cheaper.
There is currently a bizarre anomaly in the market due to several massive rental car companies dumping their rolling stock. The tech isn't yet there and there are a lot of interesting issues with depreciation.
What about electric car technology "isn't yet there?"
My main two concerns are battery replacement (and affordability of replacements including a third party market for compatible parts) and battery restoration/recovery. Alternatively, if we could massively increase battery life span (not a single charge - but how many charge/discharge cycles they can survive) that might also allay my fears - but I think the first one is better.
What issues with depreciation? Can you list actual models and prices to back your claim because it seems like most people are bitching about the high prices of EVs.
Can you list actual models and prices to back your claim because it seems like most people are bitching about the high prices of EVs.
I'm a BEV advocate, but even this is an easy one. In 2022 a Tesla Model 3 LR cost $52k while you can get the exact same car new today for $47k. This is even just MSRP. That $47k car is even $7500 cheaper for most people.
Tesla Model Y LR from the same year, 2022, is even more dramatic. It was $67k and now costs $49k.
Depreciation is a concern. If you buy something while the technology is improving, the resale value is going to tank as the technology matures. What you have to look at is what the cost is per mile you drive, minus the cost you can sell it for. But, fast-forward another 5-10 years and consider what an ICE vehicle will sell for on the used market. When EVs reach maturity, you won’t be able to give an ICE vehicle away without paying to dispose of it. We aren’t there yet, by a long shot, but it’s coming.
Just make sure you time it right.
Why is depreciation an issue? Don't you want a cheap car?
Fuck the NY times
Hell yeah, bro. You are revolutionary.
You couldn't pay me to switch to an EV.
Bringing down the dealership price means fuck all if they’re worthless on the second hand market, unless there’s some miracle tech that prevents the battery capacity from dropping like a lead balloon internal combustion engines are never going away. A car from the 50s can still travel the same distance on a full tank but an electric car from the early 2010s can barely get around a car park on a full charge.
Hydrogen is the way to go, it can be created using clean energy and it’s exhaust tends to be cleaner than the air it took in.
Toyota managed to run an engine from the 80s on high pressure hydrogen with barely any alterations and there have been trials where mains gas in the uk has been replaced with hydrogen. We’re so close to having the access required to transition to hydrogen but there’s only one or two models that can use it rn.
car from the 50s can still travel the same distance on a full tank
How much have you spent in maintenance over the last 70 years to even keep it running?
an electric car from the early 2010s can barely get around a car park
Not even remotely true.
Assuming you need a new battery every 10 years or so considering that’s their usual lifespan you’re looking at spending $70,000-$140,000 at 10,000 - 20,000 per battery according to a quick Google search. Do you really think that someone is spending $2,000 a year just making sure a tiny roadster that was designed to be repaired with a spanner on a driveway can run?
I'll take your hydrogen and raise you trains and public transit.
Building up our modern railed transit network and expanding people powered transit together is the only solution we have that's been demonstrably successful for cities in the long term.
because hydrogen is a storage problem. Toyota is waiting and expecting government to build the infrastructure when its supposed to be pushing for the interest in it themselves.
the major reason why EVs won was the Tesla charging network, and unless Toyota is commited to investing in the equivalent to it, its not going anywhere. the biggest reason is EVs being able to be charged at home, something the current infrastructure of hydrogen lacks.
Hydrogen all day...there's people who converted their pickups on YouTube that I saw like 10 years ago...just a guy in his driveway. Zero reason why companies haven't done this yet other then sheer ignorance or greed from oil, or both.
I personally don't trust EVs to fix anything..it just takes control away from end user and makes 2nd hand market almost nonexistent
Zero reason why companies haven’t done this yet other then sheer ignorance or greed from oil, or both.
Or maybe it's because hydrogen tanks take up a fuck ton of space and are impractical because of it. The Toyota Mirai has a horribly small trunk for a vehicle it's size. In anything smaller and you have almost no trunk. And retrofitting it into a car not designed for it? Good luck getting any reasonably sized tank in there without hacking away at the floor and making your own.
Archive link: https://archive.ph/5QorR
Oh, so you mean used electric cars.
Oh, so you mean not yet, but maybe affordable soon.
For fuck's sake...
New cars have always been expensive and out of reach for most, which is why the average new car buyer is well into their 50s.
I don't see how people can logically make an argument about the necessity of switching to EVs for the environment while also demanding that everyone gets a brand new car. Scrapping a bunch of perfectly good cars to build new ones is not going to help out our climate issue.
I'm not seeing "cash for clunkers" types of arguments here - I've always seen EV adoption as more about market share of new cars rather than share of the entire fleet.
Of course the former leads to the latter, eventually.
I read that the issue with used EV's is that you eventually need to replace the battery pack which can sometimes cost you as much as the car.
Edit: Seems I was misinformed. Glad to hear that replacing EV batteries is not much of a concern.
Why don’t we stop subsidizing fossil fuel companies to the tune of $1Trillion Anually, and instead put all of that money towards subsidizing purchases and further R&D of electric vehicles? Oil and Gas corporations could enjoy the competition of the free market, and we the people could get access to new EVs for under $10k out of pocket - it would be a win-win!
Like 16 years ago you could buy a brand new chevy aveo with an msrp of $10,300.
Small econoboxes used to be cheap and affordable.
That’s ridiculous. Who’s demanding that?
We need to push new EVs, because there are not enough used ones. What do you think a used car starts as? Be happy every time someone buys a new EV, because there’s another used one in 3+ years.
I got a new EV, because I needed a vehicle, and my pattern is to buy new and drive into the ground
And of course Tesla's are cheap used, they are an absolute train-wreck in the quality control department.
Yeah, rhat they are.
What do y'all thinking "becoming" means? If they meant they are already affordable, they would have used the term "are."
The problem is that they have been "becoming" affordable for 25 years, since the EV1.
Becoming would mean in the process of being affordable. Meaning some have already become, meaning there are affordable cars now.
You're not wrong, but in fairness the headline says EVs are becoming affordable, not that they are affordable.
Idk wtf any sensible person would willingly buy a new car unless there was no other option.
I don't know. I've never had a new car.
Uswd cars have gotten crazy expensive relative to new in the past few years. If the difference between new and used is only like $1k new can make sense.
Not only that, most of those cars coming available are from Hertz — they’re rental cars. But not just any rental cars… most are from Hertz’s Uber fleet.
So these are EVs with over 100,000 miles on them, worn out back seats and blistered rear armrests that have been driven by employees using a fleet lease vehicle. And migrating the cars’ software ownership to an unlocked non-fleet private owner state has proven to be… difficult.