Compare american vs japanese craftsmen-cars

I agree with the sentiment of this post, but to be fair, you can also carry 3 or 4 passengers in the left vehicle, as opposed to only one in the right.

The main problem is the US fuel economy regulations actually encourage manufacturers to build bigger trucks and SUVs so they get classified into a category that has looser fuel economy requirements.

The extended cab version of the right truck would still tick all the boxes.
Off-road and towing capacity are probably the main feature you give up with that sort of design. Whether or not most people need that is a separate story.
- They make kei trucks in 4x4, but you do lose ground clearance.
  That being said, what kind of "off road" conditions are any of the trucks really contending with?
You are right. Still the american truck is hugely oversized, even for 5 persons and cargo. But, for the sake of the argument, imagine standing on the highway. Have a gander at the cars around you. How many people per car do you see? Exactly, 90% of the time there is exactly one person in a car. What makes the american truck an extreme waste of space an ressources, beside being a health hazard to everyone outside of the car.
Cars should get smaller, not bigger.
You're mostly right. The main problem is that manufacturers chose to ignore the spirit of the US CAFE fuel economy regulations, and instead build everything bigger and bigger. That's why quarter-ton trucks grew to the size of the F150 in the year 2000 when they were quite a bit smaller before.
It's not the fault of the regulation. It is the fault of the manufacturers and to an equal extent, of consumers for preferring gigantic vehicles.
And let's not let GM off the hook for the 1990s Suburban, which began to, quite literally, dominate the roads. Those fuckers were the original huge grocery getter, and they had truly awful turning radius and blind spots. You just couldn't drive them safely or courteously if you tried. So of course everyone wanted more powerful and bigger vehicles to compete.
- I'm actually going to fault regulations on this one. The EPA bases fuel economy requirements on the wheelbase of the vehicle. They used to publish a range of values based every other year or so, but then changed it to a formula. The formula is non-linear, making it neigh impossible to build anything with a small wheelbase anymore. In theory, they could design a small hybrid truck, but would need an obnoxiously long bed to compensate.
  I watched a YouTube video on it not terribly long ago, and iirc, a 95 Ford Ranger, if held to the current formula-based regulations, would need 60+ mpg to be produced without major penalties to the company.
  The EPA either needs to reevaluate the formula, or start manually publishing the numbers with values that are actually achievable by the industry at scale. Basically, by publishing the formula, manufacturers are able to min-max their designs in all the wrong ways.
  EDIT: Updated for clarity and fixed some typos
Thanks for pointing our the real incentives which are always some bullshit about more money and less regulations - basically the reason capitalism sucks at innovation - it doesn't care about whats important and in some cases actively hates it
- What's important for you specifically is not what is important to the customer base writ large.
  You have problems with fellow consumers that you blame on manufacturers.
I thought it was very disingenuous of OP to not mention crew capacity between the two trucks at all. I'd assume the bigger truck also has a better towing capacity which may be required. What isn't required is buying one of these trucks to get groceries and replace your tv every 3 years while commuting to your desk job 1 hour away.
- But what about cargo capacity? The beds look pretty much the same size, although I’m sure allowed weight is drastically different
Thats why we always had larger and smaller versions of trucks.
99% of trucks don't NEED 3-4 passengers. Same with SUVs. Most are just used to commute back and forth to work.
Half ton trucks should have remained small, while the 1 ton ones should be closer to what the half-ton are sized today.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_F-Series#/media/File:1953_F100_Diagram.jpg
Look at the original F-100 for a good example. The old Rangers are also what most trucks should look like. Only the people that really use them should be driving these massive trucks around. I honestly hope gas prices spike massively because it's going to hit idiots that drive this shit the worst.
I would bet the standard seating for the left truck is five, but you could easily cram six in. Unless the front row is connected, then it would be even more.
The name crew can exist for reason, that how pack all your labourers in to job site, now 80% of tradesman don’t have a whole crew of labourers so the point is still there.
There name crew can exist for reason, that how pack all your labourers in to job site
Can't tow a boat an RV or trailer with the Japanese vehicle. All things Americans do for fun. For work? The Japanese vehicle can't haul 6,000 lbs of lumbar or steel, nor can it pull another vehicle out of a ditch.
- The left one looks a little too expensive to actually haul with. If you needed to move that much wouldn't something like an Isuzu Grafter make more sense?
  If you tow things wouldn't a van or any 4x4/high powered car be a better choice?

Just gonna keep on posting this

This is why Pedestrian crash avoidance mitigation (PCAM) needs to be standard required by law, and will be on Californian shortly, and with California goes the world.
Good pic. Question : I'm new to Lemmy. How come it's almost impossible to resize a pic without the pic closing on me? Is there a trick to this?
- I have this same problem on the Connect app. Which app are you using?
- Try voyager, it allows zoom in and out without issues. https://vger.app/settings/install
I love that there's casually an Abrams in the middle there.
This pic is fantastic but I wish there were more examples from actual alternatives to what people claim they need the pickups for e.g. vans like Trafics, Kangoos/Berlingos, Mercedes Sprinter/Vito etc etc. There is at least a sprinter there in version pickup, which has a very good result as I'm sure the other ones would as well, because these things tend to have the windshield all the way at the front of the vehicle so you have great visibility for the front 180°, the back 180° depends on the configuration you have which range from completely closed/opaque cargo space to fully furnished 5/7 seaters with windows.
All round sensors should be compulsory imo.
You don't happen to be a toxicologist, do you?
- ¿Que?

To anyone claiming that the bigger one is the safer one ...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-09-06/what-drove-japan-s-remarkable-traffic-safety-turnaround

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24499113/

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/countries-with-the-most-car-accidents

From the Bloomberg & NLM articles

From a safety perspective, kei cars have a lot going for them when compared with American-style SUVs and trucks. Their light weight generates less force in a collision, and their stubby front ends reduce driver blind spots. Research suggests that their occupants are equally safe as those inside full-sized vehicles.

At first, I was going to criticize the collision speed of the example study, but found ( ok, I say found, I mean I googled for 15 seconds ) that the average American collision is occurring at less than 40mph, so good to go there.
Second, I was going to comment on the relative safety of being in the Kei truck and being struck by the 2500HD... but that just goes back to the 'participating in the arms race', so feels... stupid.
So, overall: Thanks for providing this. It directly answers the primary concern of 'what if I hit something tho'. There are some other angles I could nitpick on maybe, but they all feel like a kind of 'consolation prize' to the argument.
- One thing you also need to remember, is that the smaller car has a far smaller braking distance and is more maneuverable, so is less likely to get in a crash. The lower centre of gravity also decreases the likelihood of a roll-over.
Reminds me of a friend some years back. She was 4' nothing but insisted on driving a large SUV as it was "safer" in a accident. I'm taller than most but I prefer smaller vehicles like older Cherokees and Volvos so it's quite the odd difference.

95% of the craftsmen I know have panel vans. Easier to both organize and secure tools and materials, more overall room.

I lived in (and now commute through) a neighborhood of older houses, and higher incomes, so I see a lot of contractor vehicles. It seems like it breaks down as landscapers and lawn services use the pickup trucks; trades companies (plumbers, electricians, HVAC, carpenters, painters, etc.) use vans or box trucks; and the independent guys tend to use Dodge Caravans. Nearby, the university uses fleets of kei trucks (the low-speed versions because "freedom"), Ford Model E vans, and Caravans. I think the landscaping crew has pickups.
There are an increasing number of company pickup trucks, but most of them appear to be pavement princesses, used only for their usual function: transporting egos, not equipment.
- Landscaping crews tend to pull trailers though. I imagine that's why.
Ours are utes. Either road versions or 4×4 versions. American trucks sell here but they're seen as a joke in both capability and practicality, so it's assumed the owner is very insecure about something or not very intelligent. As a result, they're very rare.
Until you have an odd size item like a door in frame. Or need to move something like a 1 man post lift. And since you know you won't be cleaning it out as often so your always going to have extra crap your hauling for no reason. I'm just going off every pro that has shown up for work at my job sites in a van.
- I had a 1 ton Ford van for 12 years and I could haul a pallet of flooring or 20 sheets of drywall inside it, as well as lumber 12 feet or shorter. Anything more bulky than what fits inside a van like that would have difficulty fitting inside a 6.5 foot truck bed without a rats nest of ratchet straps and hanging way over the tailgate.

Since Americans are obese, it makes sense that their cars are too.

I was looking for the "America bad" comment, was not disappointed. At least that carried over from reddit.
- They are absolutely the driver in this market, like it or not.
- That obesity is quite common in the U.S. is true. Source.
- I was looking for the "America bad" comment comment, was not disappointed. At least our fragile egos carried over from Reddit.

I was the only guy at the marina showing up in a compact Nissan. Got a lot of shit for it from the raised up pickups.

Yet I always had that extra $20 for beers.

It's a mystery.

Imagine being proud of drinking and driving
Edit: wow, seems your not alone in thinking killing others is a sport 👍
- And if they said "yet I always had extra money for video games", would you have assumed they were playing games while driving? Would "extra money for a bathroom remodel" translate into them doing the actual renovations in the passenger seat while driving?
- Imagine making the assumption that just because they can afford to drink, they obviously did it while/before driving.
- You appear to be German speaking. That is not what my comment meant: the beer was purchased on the way home and consumed in my home. We would often cross paths at the nearest gas station to the marina where I'd buy a case and they'd only be able to fill their tanks.
- Imagine thinking a straw man argument matters…
  They didn’t say anything about drinking and driving, why do you think it’s okay to assume it?

Yep. I'm an American tradesman and the trucks that the guys drive are way too beefy for what they actually do.

I've gotten by with small Toyota trucks, and rav 4s..much to the chagrin of the good old boys. Should have seen their face when I rolled up in a prius...till I tell em I get 50 mpg easy.

I would love a small little truck like this one in the photo.

The most handy truck I had doing construction when I was a kid was out Mazda B2200 with the Perkins diesel. It'd go forever on no fuel and was perfect for grabbing a few tools for a quick run to a job site.
https://www.curbsideclassic.com/blog/cc-outtake/cc-outtake-1983-mazda-b2200-diesel-a-veteran-of-the-great-diesel-boom-with-a-license-built-perkins-engine/
Also spent a lot of time in the industry (drywall, lath, and plaster). Key cars top out somewhere around 750 pounds of capacity, and I could early blow through that with brining materials to a job site, or hauling stuff to the dump.
Key cars are cool, but you also need other solutions in place for materials delivery and hauling. American trucks are kind of a one size fits all approach to construction. Your truck for heavy hauling is also the truck you use for light hauling.
- Most Kei trucks do top out around 750lbs, but I know for a fact that there are models of Honda Acty that have a rated bed load around 1500lbs and a rated towing capacity around 2200lbs
- Yea for sure. I'm not in a line of business where I need to he hauling stuff like that anymore. I mostly stick to the finish work these days. So I can get by w a car. If I were say a plumber or doing gutters or whatever, I could see how it's reasonable to have say a box truck etc.
You can get one. They get imported. Search for Japanese car imports to your local area. Search for Kei Truck and you'll find em. You can get an awd turbo diesel for around 8-10k
- Yea I never actually looked into it, i alwats figured the import would be expensive. Right now my situation is a little...um..fkd up.. but when I have enough to invest in another vehicle, i will def consider it. I would love one. And would be perfect for my uses. I'm sure I'd get labeled a humorous title by the lovely gentlemen on the job sites. I live in a rural area. And the boys love their big trucks. And guns. And a whole manner of things.

Willing to bet right is owned by a true worker doing real work and left is some trumpet who uses that ugly tank to drive to Walmart to buy toilet paper.

Based on what I have seen at construction sites in Asia and the US you are correct.
Most construction workers don't actually need to move all that much stuff so they tend towards regular vehicles or at most vans or small pickups. Raw material is delivered on semis. Every time I have known someone who owns a vehicle like that they could manage with a sedan. When I go out to a site my gear weights about as much as I do and it's with two techs in an economy car.
Best example was one place I was at had these fake union jobs. One guy's whole job was to babysit a machine. He drove one of those. Lazy mofo. Never packed lunch, wouldn't sweep up his "workspace", his entire day was on his phone.
- One of the electricians in my town has a minivan and I've seen him use it to bring an entire 5x14 enclosed trailer full of gear to a jobsite a few times.

This is why I loved my Nissan d21 when I had it

This is a simillar truck compared to what I had

Why isn't that an option anymore‽ I'd absolutely love my 94 Ford ranger again, and I'm totes jelly of the old school Tacoma owners.
- Yeah everyone I know would love a nice small ranger or Tacoma but everything is giant now
- Brooo I'm jelly of the old school Toyota truck owners. From before it was called the Tacoma
- The Ford Maverick scratches that old Ranger itch pretty well. I've had one for about a year and love it.
- The emissions laws are terribly written. Combined with safety laws, makes going bigger the sensible option. And to the average buyer, go a little bigger than you absolutely need is definitely something to think about.
- I had a '95 ranger for 15 years. Little 4-banger that I beat the shit out of, and moved half way across the country (and back, fuck Missouri!) in. Now I have a '12 Ranger. Similar in size, maybe a ltitle bigger. But they don't sell them anymore in this size. I'm not sure what I'll get next. I like the small pickups, but I wouldn't want to try to drive the little one in the picture on the local freeways.
I like those old school trucks. Perfect size. No over the top gaudy BS. Just simple and utilitarian.
A friend died in a Ford Ranger. They literally have no crumple zone.

We only have large trucks in the USA due to CAFE restrictions. Basically in order to sell a small truck in the USA , it has to have phenomenal gas mileage or the manufacturer has to pay the government fees.
The government is the cause for these stupid large trucks.
- There was also a lot of targeted ads that destroyed masculinity if you owned a car. Truck companies were claiming a truck made you more handsome, resourceful, trustworthy and all sorts of other claims that somehow made you a better person for owning a truck.
- It's easy to fix, just apply CAFE also to those pickup trucks. Today it's just applied to regular cars
- I'd never heard of CAFE fees before;
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_average_fuel_economy?wprov=sfla1
  I think this is the specific bit that you are referencing;
  CAFE has separate standards for "passenger cars" and "light trucks" even if the majority of "light trucks" are being used as passenger vehicles. The market share of "light trucks" grew steadily from 9.7% in 1979 to 47% in 2001, remained in 50% numbers up to 2011.
  Interesting also;
  In addition, a Gas Guzzler Tax is levied on individual passenger car models (but not trucks, vans, minivans, or SUVs) that get less than 22.5 miles per US gallon (10.5 L/100 km).
- Which is funny because the opposite law in Japan is what resulted in the tiny truck on the right. They have a class of cars, Kei cars, that are small and very economical. So if a car was too big and wasn't efficient enough they'd have to pay fees... so they went tiny.
- Thanks so much for pointing out the CAFE restrictions. I never knew they existed, and it explains much about the growth of autos in general since 2011.
The kei trucks are also illegal to import in to the U.S., if they're less than 25 years old. "Land of the free," folks.

Kei trucks due have the issue of not being great to actual haul things in the mountainous areas (a tradeoff of the small engine). They make a non-kei version that has a bigger engine for situations like that.

That being said, I think if roads and such were bigger here (Japan), we'd definitely seem more American-style vehicles. Miyazaki (Ghibli) had lots of environmental themes in his works and it wasn't because people were doing a great job of taking care of the environment. I have seen American trucks driving around Tokyo (which is silly because they can't even fit down some streets) as well as sports cars and even hummers. Yeah, some are driven by foreigners, but there are still plenty of Japanese who import and drive US vehicles. The second biggest thing stopping that is the cost of getting it over here, inspected, registered, etc. Some humans just want those and want to show off their status and Japanese people are just people, after all (as much as the internet loves to pretend otherwise).

I get the point your trying to prove but i don’t think it’s fair to compare these 2 as they are meant for different things and also brings in the assumption that all American craftsman vehicles are 2500HD’s, which is not true.

Now I agree, people using the one on the left specifically as a daily driver is actually overkill and are not using it for what it’s supposed to be used for. The one on the left is a 2500HD. They are SUPPOSED to be used for hauling and carrying equipment. The crew cab is meant to also transport the crew that is for said equipment.

The one the right is specifically meant what appears to be lighter duty use and hauling. I agree that people should use the right tool for the job. I find the one on the right to be very practical. But for the sake of this post as a means to compare Japanese craftsman vehicles to American.

You should actually show something actually comparable. Like a ford ranger with a standard cab. Which might be about the same size and power. Maybe even the same bed size. Not something that has HD (Heavy duty) in its name.

The only places I've seen trucks like the 2500HD are north America, Australia and Thailand. They usually have only one, or rarely two people people in them. They never have a significant load in the bed. Everywhere else uses vans and light trucks and gets along just fine..
- Yea these vehicles are more prominent in North America. Again, people don’t always use them as they are intended.
  It seems like your implying there is no need for a 2500HD whatsoever and that everything can be handled with a light duty vehicle. If not, then I’m not exactly sure what point your trying to make. People who use these vehicles with there intended purpose are going to be seen in use with their intended purpose.
  Also keep in mind that just because YOU don’t see one with a load, doesn’t mean the owner doesn’t have a good reason for having one. If a light duty van or truck is getting along just fine. It’s probably being used for light duty tasks. But if you use a light duty to haul say a fully loaded 3 car trailer or move large farm equipment, your going to completely ruin the vehicle.
- Is there a fat boy option? Genuinely asking a question. I'm 6'5" and a 300 pound linebacker. Small cars are so hard to get into. Honda fit was OK but I had to always get in but first and tilt my head all they way to make it in. The space behind me was a dead seat because a person would not be able to fit there legs. Mid size SUVs are the same, small trucks, even full size sedans are so hard to get into because of my height and they are so close to the ground. My knees always hurt after a while driving because my knees are against the dash. I got a single cab full sized truck but with the prospect of a spawn coming soon, my wife and I are looking for a different option. Thank you any input.
You are correct, however most people -- around here at least, buy them because "big truck go vroom" and some sort of macho complex. You can tell who has a truck for work and who has a truck for looks by how they keep their trucks.
What really annoys me are the pavement princesses - the giant pickups with the lift kits & such, that obviously haven't ever been driven off of pavement. Bonus if it's a coal-roller.
I'd understand when the big trucks are used for work and are built that way because the job demands it. But too often, they're used as prosthetic penises.

Excited for when American trucks just become literal tanks. Seems to be the trend since everything here constantly needs to be bigger bigger bigger for suburbanites. Who needs yards when you can have bigger houses? Who needs a healthy environment when you can drive gas guzzling giants? We're so unprepared to deal with climate change it's depressing. I want to believe that our culture will eventually naturally see the value in smaller, simpler things, but the trends haven't changed yet and I don't see why they would.

We're choosing Mad Max world in the USA.
The rest of the planet should plan accordingly by stocking spike strips or just not paving easy access to their homes. The Americans are transformed into toddling molerats once out of their vehicles and easily destroyed.

Anything American should be avoided. Their food is full of sugar, cars are big and useless and internet companies always try to screw their users.

I am an american that fled the country and I can confirm.
capitalism is the problem
- unregulated capitalism to be specific
lol true

I do woodworking and have gotten by with my Subaru but occasionally need to pick up 4x8 sheets of plywood, OSB, or even drywall for the house. An electric kei truck would be perfect. I'm rooting for something like the Canoo or Telo EV truck to make it to market

Have you tried using a roof rack to strap the plywood down?
- Most roof racks are not rated for much weight. A few sheets would be fine
- This is what I do but not when it's raining. Same with drywall.

"Horses are man extenders" -Ken Barbie [The Movie]

-Ken. Just Ken.

I agree with the idea with the exceptions of towing capacity, passenger capacity, and possibly (probably) bed weight capacity.

But if you’re one guy that doesn’t tow anything and needs to haul a few sheets of plywood, sure, it makes sense.

The percentage of trucks on the left I see actually doing that is functionally 0%
- Oh that may be true- but if we’re talking to working craftsman and builders as opposed to “anyone buying a truck” I think it matters.
  Most truck buyers don’t need one. I don’t have a truck but I do have a 3600lb pop up camper that we tow with a Honda pilot. It’s basically the exact same car as the Honda Ridgeline pickup but with a hatch instead of a bed. It’s also a kid and vacation mobile.
  In my case I’m not a craftsman but still couldn’t get by with the little truck because of towing and passenger capacity, that’s all I was saying.
- Well now you know one person who uses their huge truck for the purpose it was designed for! 350 owner here. If I didn’t actually need it, I wouldn’t have it. I use it to haul pallets, trailers, sometimes I hotshot. Right now I’m restoring a house built in the 1870’s and it’s cheaper to haul the equipment myself rather than pay someone to deliver it.
I agree with the idea with the exceptions of towing capacity, passenger capacity, and possibly (probably) bed weight capacity.
How often are people really towing that much though? Maybe a couple times a year at most? It would be cheaper to just rent a big truck for the few times you need it per year than have that absurd truck as a daily driver.
- Well like I said craftsman and home builders do all the time. I’m a weekend home improvement warrior and I need to haul or tow a few thousand pounds of stuff at least once or twice a month, sometimes more. We have an suv with a tow hitch for that but the idea is similar.

I fvcking love kei trucks but one counter point - a lot of US is shitty rural roads at 50-60 mph (80-95kmh) plus freeways at even higher speeds. Kei trucks are more of a city thing and just wouldn't fare well here. They are however very popular on university campuses.

100km/h isn't that fast...
- You haven't been in a kei truck then

The Japanese one would be fun for use in New York City. LOL. Easy parking, easy to navigate double-parked clowns. It just needs a bed cover to lock down anything purchased.

I don't understand pick up trucks, unless you do landscaping or farming. In a van your shit won't get stolen as easily.

Unlisted benefit of the one on the left is you can fit more people in it.

Unlisted benefits of the one on the right are

lower center of gravity, so taking turns is easier.
smaller blind spot

Yeah, if I got the truck on the right, I'd also need an SUV for the kids and the dog. What's the delta on having two cars vs having one that can be used for work and family?
- The one on the left starts at $40k. The one on the right is $8k

As an American, I've written to multiple manufacturers, foreign and domestic, to bring/build the smaller Kei trucks but I have never heard any response except for Ford that basically sent a brochure for their F150 that has 'more space' for 'getting work done'. I would love these for practicality but the cost of importing a used one was MUCH higher than buying a normal truck/suv here. :(

Who benefits from keeping these trucks out of american makets?
a) the consumers
b) existing auto manufacturers
Who chooses to keep these trucks out of american markets?
a) the consumers
b) the governments/lawmakers
Edit american not western.
- Uh, mate, we see these all the time. Maybe you need to redefine your idea of "western"?
- How do american consumers keep trucks like this out?
  I mean by not buying the imports, but at the same time it's hard to ignore the impact of not having them visible/available for purchase, decades of cultural engineering related to the auto industry here, etc.
  Not sure they belong on this list next to entities that actively craft market conditions to benefit american auto makers (and themselves) financially.
I miss mini-trucks badly and wish there was an American market for them.
Or even what used to be regular size would be fine. My work just got a behemoth and it's technically a "small". I have to literally climb in by jumping to catch the roof (no handle on the basic model) and doing part of a pull-up. I'm short but not a little person.
- It's not about consumer markets really. The CAFE emissions regulations essentially allow vehicles with larger dimensions to get lower mileage. So instead of the regulations ostensibly intended to lower emissions forcing better mileage, manufacturers just make bigger cars with the same or worse mileage than before. I used to have an S10 that got almost 20mpg, could park anywhere, could haul full sheets of plywood, and was surprisingly capable of road (came with the ZR2 package).
  People still want this, they just aren't built because of asinine laws that get created through massive amounts of lobbying.
  Neat!
- Probably one of the reasons SUVs are so popular, fold back seats down and tons of unobstructed space.
You can blame the chicken tax for why we don't get light duty trucks imported during their normal production runs.
My mom is disabled and uses a power chair (that does not fold. Medicare won't pay for sensible things like that). Our choices were saving up to buy a wheelchair van, which is so far outside of our means that it may as well cost a million dollars, or buy a pick up truck and a set of ramps. We searched for months and months for anything small, and could not find it. Eventually went with a Nissan frontier, a 2012, so the larger model. I'd kill for one of these little things. Would be perfect for us.
- There's one guy around town I see sometimes who has some sort of thing that goes on the hitch receiver of his minivan. If I see him around I might be able to ask him where he got that if I remember to. Saw him use it and it too was a non-folding power chair. He pulled up to it with the power chair, pulled ramps down, drove up onto it, pulled himself to his feet using the rear windshield wiper, stowed the ramps and leaned against the van to get to the driver's door. I'm guessing he has some sort of spinal injury.
- I bet a micro van like a Delica or Sambar would fit your needs pretty well. Compact, but large enough to fit like 8 people total and the seats are fully removable so you could totally fit a wheelchair in there. Seen people fit a whole motorcycle in them before.

Really wish I could get my hands on one of these. The import process is so complicated it makes it barely cheaper than a domestic used truck.

So it's still cheaper than a domestic used truck?
- With a bunch of headache and work to do the paperwork, sure. Depends on what your time is worth.
It's probably model dependent, but the one I drove around for my job in Japan had zero leg room. My knees were resting on the dash as the passenger with the seat all the way back.
- Is this because it's made to fit the average Japanese adult or is it just that small
I was going to buy one of the kei trucks when I had to replace my truck in 2022. I ended up with a base used F150 for 12k, because it was cheaper than any kei truck I could find.

Hey! I live in Korea. These things are ubiquitous. They are colloquially called "Bongos" as that was the name of an older, popular model. There are more and more electric ones on the road these days, too.

Unfortunately, you can find a few of the monstrosities on the left here these days, too, but at least very few. They've got nowhere to park them here. Haha!

My first car was an early 90s Ranger. These were the days when you could actually buy a small pickup, not whatever the hell the Ranger is now.

Now, look, it was still horrible for the enviroment like all cars. It wasnt great on gas, but compared to larger trucks in that era, it sipped fuel by comparison. But friends asked why I didnt just go for a 'real truck'.

Simple. It was big enough for anything I needed to haul. I didnt need a huge truck. It was easy to drive and I could park it anywhere, even in the city when I visited.

Now they dont even make small trucks anymore, at least not in North America. Everything is huge even though only, like, 1% of truck owners actually need something that big. And they keep getting bigger year by year. Its insane.

One is made to show how much of an egoist you are, and the other is made to do the job. I really don't get the gigantomax trucks, and never will

Having a back seat is a legit feature. Other than that, you are right on. I would love to have a real small trucks available in the US. But thanks to Country Music that is just not possible.

Yeah can't put a car seat in the front
- You can legally put a front facing car seat in the front of there is no backseat. Rear facing you are SOL.
- Aren't switchable passenger airings still a thing? I know I saw them on Chevy 1500s 20 years ago.

How does each hold up in a collision tho? Crumple zones take up space, not something terribly present in the kei truck.

Not that this makes the 2500's faults or anything. It just seems worth noticing.

The one on thebleft is definitely better at killing people
- Better to kill than be killed
Oh definitely, helps if every third car or so is like the one on the right. Would be nice if the government subsidised the right ones and not the ones on the left
- Its a tin can basically. Theres a reason why you cant import new ones, you have to wait 25 years. Also terrible emissions for its size.
So basically, "fuck other people! I care about my own safety and that's it!"
Lovely sentiment, no wonder the US is doing so great.
- Nah, it was a simple question about the overall efficacy of surviving a crash.
  And if you had participated in other parts of the conversation, you'd see that there is actually movement on that front. TL;DR, since you seem in a hurry, both trucks are equally safe at a speed that most collisions happen ( under 40mph ).
  But if you want to make that about "AMERICANS ARE EVIL", I can't really stop you. lt;3
- Wait.. Do you not care about your own safety? When all other factors are equal, you'd prefer to just be dead?
In a collision, fewer people die with the small vehicle.
- Is that because it only fits one person?
- Except that the studies don't suggest that. In other parts of the thread, the risk to life and injury works out to be roughly the same for the average collision.
  Unless your commentary is: "Less seating means less people involved." In which case: Good job, hard to counter.
Also, this is America. I hate being the murica guy but... Other countries have these windey roads that go around mountains because they're seen as obstacles or they just don't have mountain ranges to deal with. Here in America we see a mountain and we see it as a challenge. We build roads directly and straight through the most convenient straight line to the next city.
Now me as a Seattle person I look at the vehicle on the right and I see a great around the town LIGHT hauling truck that would be very useful within those confines.
If I want to go beyond that like say taking the family to Idaho/Silver Lake or even Sun Lakes I'm screwed. Going up the pass with that I'd be surprised if I broke 50mph with that, the speed limit is 70. Not sure where I'd put my family during that drive tbh but let's pretend they don't exist... Now I'm up in the pass while going 20 under the speed limit without dieing... What if there's snow? There's snow for half of the year. I'm straight up screwed in that car in the right.
- Not sure why you would go on a family trip with a work truck. The Japanese truck is specialized for work, because it's silly to have a work truck that you go on big family trips with.
  That said, a quick google for Japanese trucks just picking the first one I can find - the Mitsubishi Minicab - it seems they can go 70mph. The Mitsubishi Minicab has a top speed of 72mph.

One of these are not for work. You don't risk a dent on a $60,000 show piece.

I saw a dude on YouTube complaining that his fairly new $85k Dodge Ram work truck was breaking down. I don't think he expected people to call him an idiot for spending that much on a work truck. I'm sure he did actually use it to haul shit around since he is a farmer but probably $35k of that is comfort stuff.
- My wife's family runs their farms with motorcycles and tractors. They seem to be doing fine. Agreed he is a not wise.
If you are buying brand new, $60K is fairly base model now (for a pickup truck at least).
- Why are you saying it like it's something normal you fat burger.

Anyone drive one of these in Canada during the winter?

These guys drive through some shit.
- Ok that's interesting. Now I'm wondering how the transmission will hold up to that kind of driving (I can google that one).
there's a few tradies in my town in canada that have these kei trucks, it seems to work for them.
japan has winter too
- Ya just wondering from people who have tried them what they're like on the road in less than ideal conditions. I'll probably consider one of these if/when I ever get a car. But.. there are mountains nearby and it would be nice to be able to go down the forest service roads. Ideal for me is some small pickup around the same price as a kei.
Canada winters are overblown. Unless you're literarily in the middle of a massive snow storm, the roads will be clean and reasonable. None of these f150 are bought for their winter dominance. In fact I've seen more of them in ditches than regular cars.
- Something like 40% of Canadians live below the 45th parallel. Journey sucks at geography, south Detroit would be Windsor Canada.
- Overconfidence

I recently bought a car and really wanted a kei truck, but I have to drive highway to get to work and I couldn't find a highway legal one for any remotely sane price :/ hopefully I'll find one next time I'm looking

Check out Mayberry Mini Trucks in NC

But the right one doesn't have enough room for a crate of piss-weak "beer", a gun rack, or a perch for your eagle.

Even Toyota's own Tacoma line is much more modest than that monstrosity on the left side of the image. I think their business and marketing people saw the trend in America for increasingly larger pickup trucks and pushed back against it, realizing themselves that it's pointless and ridiculous to have a truck that large.

All of the Tacoma's I've driven were pretty straightforward trucks despite it having 4 seats.

They also make the Tundra which is every bit as large as this truck shown.
- The Toyota Tundra honestly makes the Ford F150 feel small.
- It's estimated that Ford makes an average of $10,000 in profit for each F150 sold. Toyota would be stupid to not make a full sized truck to get some of that cash.
The older small Tacoma were my fav trucks.

Vans are more useful work vehicles than these giant pickup trucks, since usually you want your equipments to be covered and protected from the elements.

Unless you need to haul lumber.

Japan is known for not having much on-street parking, you need the extra 10 feet of height to see over the SUVs parked on every street corner here.

They don't even sell like the tiny rangers anymore, the f150 trucks are so ridiculously oversized

I sort of need a truck. I routinely buy full size sheet goods (plywood, OSB, etc). So I bought my first ever truck. A Ford Maverick, got the hybrid engine. The amount of people who try to make fun of it and say it's not a truck is insane. I don't care, I bought it cuz it's not really an American truck and it does what I need out of a truck. The obsession with making trucks larger and larger in the US is wild.
I live in a city in Western Canada and drive a pathetic vehicle smaller than a raised dually. I frequently pull up to intersections where you can't turn left until the light changes but I'm turning right (two lanes). It is virtually inevitable that I will need to pull out to see to the left past some giant truck a guy is driving to his office job.
Without fail they all pull forward. Why? They don't need to see past me.
It's either because they can't handle that I'm "winning" or they are deliberately blocking me from being able to see to right safely.
The next thing that happens is the giant truck behind my starts laying on the horn because they want me to go. When I first moved here I thought "it must be clear so they are letting me know". It isn't clear.
This is enough of an issue here that I avoid this situation at all costs. I'll often turn right, left, and right again to do this on a single lane side street (mostly a grid here) rather than turn right at an intersection like this.
f150 trucks are so ridiculously oversized All 1/2 ton pickups in the US are huge now and cost more than my first house.

I feel the Ford Maverick is a step in the right direction.

- Yeah tons of companies miss the ranger like orkin, they say the large size of the old f150s was a challenge imagine now
They are so cool. I really wanted to buy one, but they are the tiniest bit too small for my needs (I use a truck for work) but would probably work for most people

I agree, the Japanese craftsmen-car on the right is far superior and the American pick-up truck on the left just looks ridiculous.

US automotive regulation is beyond fuvked and mostly fuction to kill competition and increase profits for "American" car manufacturers.

But freedoms per burger!

Sizes aside, whenever I bought a Toyota or if I bought a Lexus, I would make sure that they were manufactured in Japan.

b-but left makes your dick seem bigger /s

And store the hitch in the trailer when you're not using it.
Not enough people get this.

I agree that most craftsmen don't need the truck on the left, a few that I know need to tow a trailer with about 3,000 pounds of shingles for some roofing jobs. I'm pretty sure the one on the right might struggle with that kind of weight.

One of them I know do drive a Ranger which is somewhere between the two in size at least.

Here is the answer to your question. You can skip to the EPA graph at about 4:55, but may want to watch the whole vid if you actually care to learn about the problem. https://youtu.be/azI3nqrHEXM

The one on the right l looks like those vehicles the school janitor drove around my HS in the 90s.

Fragile? But those American truck owners always try to look so tough and mean...

They try to act and look tough but they have some of the most fragile egos.
- That's why they get offended so quickly hehe

Definitely not that small, but I would choose them over a pickup.

Buy a big one if you need to flex with your money, like iPhone f.e.

It is only justified, if you live in a district or village outside the city, because of the wild roads and family business.

i always love seeing this japanese pickup

I know the arms race is not a good thing, but I also don't want to lose it. Just imagine a head in collision between these two.

But L makes owning libs so easy with the ‘rolling coal’ feature

\s

I can confirm, living in SEA, that the right can also roll coal.

Yep. When I have to use a grappling hook and rappelling gear just to get in the truck, I'm not going to find it practical...

this thing looks terrible to actually work with, hauling trailers or trucks, heavy loads in bed as well as off road? doubt

Hard agree. The k trucks are great for any home hobbyist or light duty tradesmen like an electrician. For Carpenters, construction workers, plumbers, or anyone else who actually hauls heavy shit around all day and needs to use a large variety of tools, these just aren't going to cut it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymyDjaL6hZs&t=180s
Seems pretty usable overall, great for midsize loads and the overwhelming majority of personal projects. Given the ubiquity of untouched ultra-capacity vanity trucks, this is an actual reasonable daily driver.

This is a thorough and accurate assessment. If you include the "van" type vehicle, which is essentially the same as the little truck with a roof, you get the added benefit of being able to lock your goods and tools away. And then there's THIS.

they both seem too large, are there any smaller ones?

https://i.imgur.com/UlQ5CxZ.jpeg
If the one on the right still seems too big for you, maybe look into a cargo bike

The most important thing for me in a car is safety, and clearly a car that small without a front engine will have much higher injury/mortality rate in a crash.

Agreed though that excessively boosted cars are dumb, and probably most people who drive a truck don't need one in the first place.

That's the thought process that led to everyone driving giant vehicles in the first place. Bigger doesn't always mean safer for the occupants, but bigger is always more dangerous for everyone else. There are plenty of smaller vehicles that have excellent safety ratings.
- Ironically, SUVs and pickups are LESS safe if you compare injury (and death) in a crash, according to dmv studies
- Overall bigger cars will usually be safer for the occupant- but obviously there is a balance. My hesitancy is just with a small car that also doesn't have a crumple zone, and also is made out of lightweight materials.

I am a fragile piece of human, and I have slammed into a bull moose before.

I'm an intact fragile piece of human because I was in a Toyota Tundra, a Japanese truck.

Get the vehicle that suits your needs and tastes.

The "get the vehicle that suits your tastes" part is exactly what's problematic nowadays, though.
- In my lived experience people are also notoriously bad at analyzing their own needs, a fact car salesmen and marketers take full advantage of.
  But you know, it's a cardinal sin to tell someone they don't evaluate need very well. Take my mom and dad,they live together with no kids, semi retired and in 2018 they replaced an SUV with a $55,000+ Ford Mustang. The same year I got a Chevy Bolt for my family of 3, now 4. Fast forward to 2023, they spent the last six years paying higher monthly payments than I did, they can't take the grandkids anywhere because car seats don't fit, they complain about being on fixed income because the price of gas spiked up, they can't take road trips because fuel is too expensive and when I mentioned maybe they should have considered an EV they say "well I don't have a spare sixty thousand dollars around just to save a buck on gas". Anyway, I'm the AH now for having tried to convince them in 2018 that a sports car was not what they needed.
  Next story, a married friend of mine bought a large SUV soon after buying a house. It was just the two of them. Asked why get such a big vehicle they said they were renovating the house, and it was easier to use their own vehicle than to get deliveries or rent a truck occasionally. Years after finishing the home one of them is still making payments on that rig, and since they're divorced the only hauling it does is one person to work at great expense.
I bet a train wouldn't even need to be serviced after hitting a moose. Nor would it even delay the trip.
- I was driving from a village of 13 people, Healy Lake to Fairbanks, Alaska.
  So I guess the trains delayed until the state decides to lay tracks down for the dozen people living there.
  Nowadays, in rural Alaska at least, it seems trains are for tourists.

I'm in Tokyo right now, and absolutely nobody drives a big truck. I would estimate 80% of cars in the city have 660cc engines.

Definitely not 660cc engines, they are just mainly normal commuter cars. Alot of wagons is what I notice going from osaka to Tokyo, Osaka has a thing for vans.
I'd hazard the mean engine displacement is 2000cc with commons being 1 6. 1 8. 2.0 and 2.3. I've also seen lifted chevys in Japan (super rare obvs) so it's all relative.

Tows 7500lbs less if anything and I can still seat my family and friends. You are more apt to compare this to a van if you want an actual comparison. But you don't.

Sounds like 2 different specialized vehicles would work better
- More cars you say?
- Why would anyone want two or more specialized vehicles when they could have a single one that does every job just as well, and a few more besides?
  Granted, you'd actually have to be using the bigger truck for those jobs, which the vast majority of owners do not.
  Once you get out of the city, those trucks actually start doing work, and a lot of work at that.

Left: 4 dudes can ride comfortably to a job site 100 miles away in 100F weather

4 dudes can also ride comfortably 160km to a job site in 38° weather in a Honda Civic.
- Not with their tools and supplies they can't

R can't tow for shit.

R has a 2,200 lb carrying capacity. It can haul or tow almost anything a regular person needs to 99% of the time.
These little trucks also build and supply massive countries across the world. It's preposterous to think you need 4,000lbs of carrying capacity day in and day out. You absolutely do not.
- Great, but carry capacity and towing capacity aren't the same thing. And it doesn't matter if I don't need to tow something everyday, even if I need to tow something monthly or even yearly the one on the right just can't do it. Also from my very brief searching it seems like a KEI truck absolutely does not have a capacity of 2200lbs, more like 800-1500lbs. I will agree though, if you just need a work vehicle and a truck bed then the KEI truck is probably fine. If you need to tow, it absolutely is not.
You can call a tow truck when you need one. You dont have to drive piece of industrial equipment to go to the hairdresser.
- Yes, let me call the tow truck to take the camper on a family vacation. Brilliant.

American cars need to be bigger and strong BC they need to carry all the obese mongrel americans

L triple the bed size when actually comparing cubic feet.

L higher and deeper bed means over sized and long loads with a flag are legal.

L has a larger engine which means it can carry heavy loads much easier.

L Relatively silent in the cab.

L carries 3 more passengers.

L ability to hitch much larger trailers and campers.

L tow hitch unnecessary for 3/4 of American truck drivers, who use their hitch once or never per year.
L Bed size irrelevant for 1/3 of American truck drivers who use their trucks for hauling once or never per year.
L is three times as likely as a sedan to kill pedestrians in a crash.
L "relative" cabin quiet achieved by unnecessary insulation caused by inefficient, excessive engine noise.
L unnecessary larger engine and acceleration speed translates directly to increased cost and pollution
L does jobs with embarrassing inefficiency that most compact cars could do while saving money and being safer
- I could make a lot of those arguments about the other truck too. Most people don't need a truck for most of their transportation. People in this thread are a ting like there isn't a single good reason to use American trucks. I can agree that they're usually excessive, but you cannot pretend that the other truck is better in every way.
Yeah, my family currently has R but next year we need to buy an L for most of the reasons listed above. I'm just glad both options are available, it's always works out better for consumers when there's more choices depending on your needs.
- I think the difference in opinion here though is that you have a small truck but recognize that you do have reasons to upgrade, instead of starting out with one of the monster trucks and not ever really using it to the potential that it has all while creating way more emissions and it being way more dangerous

Lovely in theory until:

Only 2 v 5 people meaning more round trips Significantly less load meaning more round trips Much nicer to drive Poor crash rating, less safe.

It’s almost as if the industry has been formed by the popular choice among the people. Isn’t that quaint.

The safety of the bigger trucks comes at cost to those around it. Statistically pedestrians, drivers, and passengers struck by larger vehicles are far more likely to sustain serious injury or die. The idea that we should drive larger vehicles because those inside of it are safer has lead and will continue to lead to a spiral where we drive progressively larger vehicles to the detriment of literally everyone.
The reason large trucks exist has nothing to do with some kind of democratic capitalism. It's to get around emission laws in the US. The larger a vehicle is the more emissions they are allowed to produce so rather than create more efficient engines it's more cost effective to simply build a larger vehicle. The trend of purchasing progressively larger vehicles is driven by marketing. Market forces are not natural phenomena like a tide; they're manufactured.

You are not getting rebuttals because you made false claims like "couldn't tow a tricycle" and made non truck specific tasks like "driving my family to dinner" as part of your argument. The kei truck could certainly haul a tricycle and you don't need a large pick up truck to get to dinner.
When I had my roof replaced last year the shingles were delivered by a large flat bed semi with a conveyor belt to get the shingles on the roof. The guys doing the work showed up the next day in small cars. I doubt may people are rolling up to replace a roof with a truck bed full of shingles and carrying them up a ladder.
Large trucks do have uses in a few very limited places but the vast majority in the US are not needed. Looking at self reported usage of truck owners most would be better served with a smaller more economical car and renting a truck as needed. Even people hauling regularly would probably benefit having a kei truck.
Lol, tell me you’ve never been outside the US without telling etc
You do realise everybody else on this planet can tow everything they need without those BS pavement princesses, right? Or do you think people in the US are the only ones going camping, owning boats?
If you're not sure why you're getting downvoted, read your first sentence
I feel you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhLqPfAylF4

Oh hey, it’s the cult people. Happy to see y’all finally got settled in.

How good is the one on the right for off roading? Towing? Hauling campers? uNleSs yOuR frAgIlE..... just stop

The one on the right is probably better at offroading. Some kei trucks are 4x4 and lighter weights and shorter wheelbases are usually a good thing in off road scenarios.
- Wheel size plays a large role too
There are more about an order of magnitude more people discussing those functions on the internet then there are practically using them.

When you can't even make reasonable arguments and have to blatantly lie or twist reality to fit your narrative, it's called propaganda.

The amount of completely bullshit or cherry picking of specs or facts in this post is ridiculous. This community has turned into PETA-levels of obnoxiousness where even people who might otherwise agree with some of your ideas are just turned off by the stupid tactics. Like yeah, we get it, everyone would like more green and more walkable communities, but holy fuck the amount of bullshit some of you folks will go to to fit that narrative is nauseating.

What's bullshit is calling something bullshit for reasons you ether don't know or aren't willing to share with others!
- If you are comparing the two trucks as work trucks, then the tiny one just cannot compete. It has a much lower bed weight capacity, has almost no towing capacity, and cannot fit more than two people.
  As an actual work truck, it kind of sucks. It might be able to putter around on a job site, but that's about it.
  The big truck can haul pallets of water in the back, can tow trailers full of plywood and sheet rock, and can actually fit most of a small work crew.
  If you compare them as work trucks, the small one loses every time. And OP looks stupid for even making the comparison.
  The vast majority of those big trucks sold are not work trucks. That's what the criticisms should focus on.
Your argument: "It's bullshit! You're annoying too!"

Well, if you don’t care about comfort or safety go with the one on the right. I’d be curious to see how that KEI Truck holds up in a major collision with the average American SUV.

That’s the arms race
In normal countries being able to crush smaller cars during a collision isnt usually a selling point :/
- In the US that's actually a sport!
This is so TRUE! My next car is gonna be a M4 Sherman, I’m afraid of how my average American SUV holds up to the Silverado 2500 HD on the left.
- I'm more of a Leopard 2 guy, but get whatever keeps you safe out there.
I was thinking the opposite. I met with the business end of one of those little trucks while riding a tiny 50cc Honda scooter back in the nineties. We both walked away unscathed. When all the vehicles are small, catastrophic results seem to decline.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-09-06/what-drove-japan-s-remarkable-traffic-safety-turnaround
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/countries-with-the-most-car-accidents
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24499113/
Long story short, you're completely incorrect. Driving Japan is scientifically proven to be significantly safer than the US, and one of the reasons for that is the smaller size of car. To quote one of those articles:
For those who do drive, Japan offers vehicles appropriately scaled to urban life: the kei car, a class of vehicle considerably smaller and lighter than a US subcompact. Regulations restrict the size, power and speed of these microcars; typical modern versions might weigh around 2,400 pounds and have length of about 130 inches — some 4,000 lbs less and 100 inches shorter than a Ford F-150 truck, the best-selling American passenger vehicle.
From a safety perspective, kei cars have a lot going for them when compared with American-style SUVs and trucks. Their light weight generates less force in a collision, and their stubby front ends reduce driver blind spots. Research suggests that their occupants are equally safe as those inside full-sized vehicles.
Americans need to stop with the arms race of "bigger is safer", it's all bullshit.
So you agree that American cars are built with only the passengers safety in mind and people don’t give a shit what happens to the other party?
While true, that's not a point for the American car. That one won't stand a chance against a train, but nobody would come to the conclusion that everybody should buy a personal train to haul their lawnmower.