Linus Torvalds and Richard Stallman
Linus Torvalds and Richard Stallman
I've tried using my incredible (british) brain using Google to see if these open source titans ever engaged in a battle of "friendly conversation" with one another.
I was always interested what Stallman thought of the angry but smart finnish man who gave us the robust penguin kernel that breathes life into older machines and powers supercomputers for the weather.
The same with Torvalds thoughts on Stallmans GNU involvement and him as a person.
This is because you sometimes had different organisations in the FOSS and OSS community that take on different meanings so I wanted a better idea if these chaps ever spoke in an interview together.
TLDR : Does finnish man like bearded GNU jesus man and the same vice versa
I'm picturing Daffy Duck and Bugs Bunny swapping hunting signs on a tree... "Linux season!" "GNU season!", back and forth. The rest of us just watching like Elmer Fud.
Stallman's attempt to rename Linux to incorporate the GNU name not happening was frustrating on his end it seems. Everytime someone calls their system a Linux based OS and not GNU/Linux based OS downplays the work he put in. However, Linus's kernel was more elaborate than GNU Hurd, so it was incorporated. It's said Stallman is a visionary, while Linus is a programist. While there's never been any display of tension in a back and forth between them online, it's always seemed to me they appreciate and also despise various aspects of each another.
However, Linus's kernel was more elaborate than GNU Hurd, so it was incorporated.
Quite the opposite.
GNU Hurd was a microkernel, using lots of cutting edge research, and necessitating a lot of additional complexity in userspace. This complexity also made it very difficult to get good performance.
Linux, on the other hand, was just a bog standard Unix monolithic kernel. Once they got a libc working on it, most existing Unix userspace, including the GNU userspace, was easy to port.
Linux won because it was simple, not elaborate.
Everytime someone calls their system a Linux based OS and not GNU/Linux based OS downplays the work he put in.
Absolutely, and the fact that people didn't adopt it creates confusion, some people claim Android is also Linux, which you can argue, but it's definitely NOT GNU/Linux, and it's definitely NOT a free desktop OS as defined by freedesktop.org either. There's a huge difference.
Especially since Android generally means Android with Google apps, and not AOSP. AOSP is open source, but Android with Google apps is not.I actually believe that “GNU / Linux” creates the confusion, even the Android problem you cite.
If we all just said “Linux” to mean Linux distribution and the software ecosystem that implies, almost everybody would agree what that meant. All this “actually what you are calling Linux is actually” and “Linux is just the kernel” stuff confuses people. If Linux is just the kernel then Android and Ubuntu are equally Linux. Most people do not even know what a kernel is until you start “educating” people that “Linux” is not Linux.
An Operating System is defined by the applications that it runs natively. Alpine Linux and Ubuntu run the same software and services. Chimera Linux runs all the same stuff even though it comes without any GNU software by default ( BSD utils, Clang compiler, MUSL ). They are all “Linux”. None of them are Android or ChromeOS. They are not the embedded OS in my thermostat or body worn camera. Of course, all these things use the Linux kernel but they are not all “Linux” operating systems.
There are many examples of the kernel not defining the Operating System. iOS and macOS are not the same thing. Windows and Xbox are not the same thing. Yes, us geeks know the common infrastructure they share.
And if an operating system is defined by its applications, is “GNU” a good label? My distro of choice offers 80,000 packages of which maybe 200 are managed by the GNU Project. Go to gnu.org and look at the list of packages that are actually GNU for real. It may shock you how short the list is.
There are other single sources that contribute more software. In terms of code and base architecture, Red Hat is probably the largest contributor ( and no, I do not use Red Hat — RHEL has fewer than 3000 packages for one thing ). I do not want to call my distribution “Red Hat” Linux but frankly it makes more sense than GNU.
Some of the GNU / Linux folks say that the reason for the label is the C library ( Glibc ). But not all Linux distros use Glibc. For a mainstream Linux user, does it make sense to say that Alpine, Void, and Chimera are not the same kind of OS as Ubuntu or Fedora? A regular user could sit down at any of them and not only use them mostly the same but perhaps not even notice the difference. I could write a Linux app without knowing about Alpine and the it could be built for it easily. They all use the same apps and desktop environments. They all run Docker natively. Even fairly deep Linux knowledge applies equally to them all. As pointed out, freedesktop.org applies to them equally. They have the same driver and hardware support ( including the full graphics and audio stacks ). Most people would agree that all these “Linux” systems are pretty alike and quite different from macOS, Windows, and Android. They are all much more like each other than they are even to FreeBSD.
The GNU name pays homage to the historical contribution of the GNU Project that, while important, is pretty historical at this point. If the goal is to promote Free Software or even the GPL, the right branding would be the FSF. So, even that is confusing.
Clearly, in my view, GNU is a terrible brand to try to glob on to Linux. It is not explanatory. It is not even accurate. It is mostly political and frankly overstates the current contribution of the project. I talked code above. There is more code in Wayland or X11 and Mesa than in all of GNU probably. There are more lines of code licensed MIT than GPL in most distros. Most GPL software available is NOT provided by the GNU project.
Again, GNU is a hugely important project to free software and the history of Linux. That history should be celebrated and acknowledged. Distorting it and contorting it is not the way to do that. Enough with “GNU / Linux” already.
Should have been called Lignux.
Thats the term Stallman came up with when the first distributions (esspecially Debian) started to build up. It wasnt really popular even back than so he setteled in GNU/Linux as alternative which to this day is in the name of quit a lot distributions.
It was never the plan/intend to rename the Linux kernel itsself to either of those terms.
Should we call it X/GNU/Linux as to not downplay the work the people at Xorg put in? Also possibly Systemd/X/GNU/Linux, how about Plasma/Systemd/X/GNU/Linux, and since nowadays browsers do most of the tasks I think it's only fair Firefox/Plasma/Systemd/X/GNU/Linux, or maybe Chromium/GNOME/Dinit/Wayland/Musl/Linux, you know what these two have in common? Just the Kernel, but you would say they're both the same OS.
I'm not saying GNU is not great nor am I saying that they didn't contributed or that they're worthless. But GNU is not special, X, Systemd, and other such components are just as essentials to Linux as GNU, and no one claims they should be added to the name of the OS.
Stallman’s attempt to rename Linux
There was never any "attempt to rename Linux." Stallman simply wants to clarify which part of the operating system is "Linux" (the kernel) and which part(s) are not (many of which are his work, which Linux fans insist on also calling "Linux" even though the GNU project predates it by almost a decade).
Any "confusion" on this point is the result of Linux fans spreading mistruths (I assume only sometimes intentionally). Unfortunately at this point the myths are so firmly ingrained we have myths about the myths (like "Stallman wants to rename Linux") and in my mind Stallman is definitely fighting a losing battle nowadays. Still, a falsehood being widely accepted does not make it true.
Both are equally important for the GNU/Linux world. Torvalds is more inclined to the "tech" side and Stallman is more like a "philosopher" the man who showed us the importance of free software.They are body and soul of the GNU/Linux. Long live to them.
TLDR : Does finnish man like bearded GNU jesus man and the same vice versa
My impression is that they both have a respect for each other, although they don't necessarily like each other.
I can't remember having seen them debating each other, either in person or otherwise. But their positions are well known. Linus chose the GPL license from an engineering/pragmatic viewpoint, while Stallman is an idealist.
Apparently they are quite friendly:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDxMJQLXmBEWhy does this look and sound like the inspirational scene of a Mockumentary?
Unfortunately he's said a lot more than that.
Richard Stallman on paedophilia:
"The nominee is quoted as saying that if the choice of a sexual partner were protected by the Constitution, 'prostitution, adultery, necrophilia, bestiality, possession of child pornography, and even incest and pedophilia' also would be. He is probably mistaken, legally--but that is unfortunate. All of these acts should be legal as long as no one is coerced. They are illegal only because of prejudice and narrowmindedness."
RMS on June 28th, 2003
"I think that everyone age 14 or above ought to take part in sex, though not indiscriminately. (Some people are ready earlier.)
RMS on May 25th 2003
"I am skeptical of the claim that voluntarily pedophilia harms children. The arguments that it causes harm seem to be based on cases which aren't voluntary, which are then stretched by parents who are horrified by the idea that their little baby is maturing."
RMS on June 5th, 2006
"There is little evidence to justify the widespread assumption that willing participation in pedophilia hurts children."
RMS on Jan 4th, 2013
People need to understand that you can be a champion of FOSS, and have some great ideas in terms of software liberty, while also having some really shitty views in other areas.
It's why people should avoid celebrity worship. Just because an engineer/sportsperson/actor/artist/CEO does something you like, doesn't necessarily mean they're a good person, or devoid of human flaws.
Lmao, that tldr is fucking GLORIOUS.
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28 juli 2014 — What do you think about Linus Torvalds? I met Linus and his wife briefly at a party in 1999, and haven't crossed paths since.
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Video with Linus giving RMS the Torvalds award in 1999 : https://youtube.com/watch?v=xnb_eFSnXFI
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Stallman is an ass and particularly is an ass to women. Fuck that guy. There’s a reason everyone in tech has a Stallman horror story.
People downvoting you have never met Stallman face to face.
(Linus leans back in his chair, a glint of amusement in his eyes, and gestures toward Richard Stallman who is seated across from him. Richard, ever the passionate advocate, is already gesturing with his hands.)
"Well, if you're talking about the revolution in computing, you can't forget about this fella right here, Mr. Stallman."
(He gives Richard a playful nudge.)
"He's the one who really gave us the framework, the ideals, the whole 'free software' movement."
Richard, his eyes gleaming with conviction, jumps in.
"It's not just about code, Linus. It's about freedom, about users having control over their own technology. It's about sharing, about building on each other's work, and refusing to be locked in by proprietary systems." (He leans forward, his voice gaining intensity.)
"We had to fight for that freedom, against the corporations who wanted to control every bit of software, every line of code. But we won, and GNU is proof that free software can not only work but thrive. "
Linus nods in agreement, a hint of respect in his voice.
"He's right, you know. Without the GNU tools, without Richard's vision, Linux wouldn't be what it is today. It wouldn't be as powerful, as flexible, as truly free."
(He turns back to you, a mischievous glint in his eyes.)
"But don't let them fool you, we weren't always the best of friends. We had our disagreements, our battles over licensing, our philosophical differences. But hey, that's part of the fun, isn't it?"
(He grins, leaning back in his chair.)
"In the end, we were all working towards the same goal, a world where software is free for all to use, share, and improve. And that's a goal worth fighting for, wouldn't you say?"
Both are important.
Who is running herd right now? I need to know.
I tried Debian/Herd on a spare box. I think that lasted for what, a week? It was a less than complete experience, so I moved on to more fruitful experiments.
Both are titans on whoose shoulders we stand.
I know lemmy has a gigantic hate boner for LLMs, but if you plugged this scenario into a good one (probably not the bog standard "free" chatgpt in bing) you'll probably get a very entertaining conversation.
"LLMs mEnTiOnEd lEt'S dOwNvOtE"
I really hate this about Lemmy sometimes........
