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But when the choice is a straight fascist who's talking like he's going to put my queer friends in the fucking ground vs same old America, I'll take same old America a little bit longer so the people I care about don't fucking die in 2 years.
Biden is putting Palestinians in the fucking ground, but they’re not your friends, nor people you care about (our only two options will probably both do this, but we must work with these choices God gave us and ignore this). He put migrants in concentration camps, continued the sanctions regime for the starvation of the citizens of enemy nations, and wrought imperialism across the globe. But this is the “same old America” and Biden is only a “straight fascist” when he comes for the precious Americans at home. Well he did that with the crushing of the rail workers strike and the continuation of the same old poverty and racist systems. Is coming for your queer friends the one thing that makes someone a “straight fascist”? Biden could have used federal authority to work towards the suppression of anti-trans laws in backward states, but he didn’t.
Meanwhile organize, effect change, praxis. All that good jazz.
I love empty words, but tell me, what does this mean when you passively play the electoral game? What is this “effective change” and “praxis” (“all that good jazz”)?
Sucks that it's our choice here, but I don't think y'all are considering what a trump round 2 would look like. And we are playing with fire.
I was told that a second Trump term would see the U.S. pulling out of NATO (objectively good) and a national abortion ban (the Democrats already allowed Roe v. Wade to be repealed, and the defense among them has been that Biden does not have the power to do anything about this, as, woe, he was born into the wrong branch; given Trump would be the president as well, surely he would not have the power to institute such a ban) along with a bunch of unsubstantiated uncreative Hitler 3.0 stuff like “Trump Youth.”
Biden is putting palastinians in the fucking ground and that is a complaint, but voting or not voting in this election doesn't change that. That's not on the table. US is going to commit genocide no matter the winner and it fucking sucks. But what do you want me to do? You want me as a cis straight white man to tell my queer friends that I'm willing to sacrifice their life and safety to make a point? For what? To what end? What's your preferred outcome here?
At the end of the day, I'm not an accelerationist. I have a preferred outcome here, and no amount of wishing for a 3rd choice will change anything. Not choosing ain't gonna stop the choice from being made. And I'll take the, however small, less worse choice than the other.
Voting as well has no effect on your effect you can do in your community. It doesn't effect the orgs your in or whatever activism your up to. The best case scenario is you own the libs and while they scratch their head wondering for the billionth time why we won't vote for them and change nothing, more people suffer than would have otherwise.
I am not willing to sacrifice people, especially knowing the groups targeted will not be me.
The dems have pulled this "You'd better vote for us because the other guy will literally kill you if they win!" thing since the 60s, they've just shifted around the minority group they target with their threats. Please listen to this 8 minute speech by Malcolm X, it's incredibly relevant here.
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
Biden is putting palastinians in the fucking ground and that is a complaint, but voting or not voting in this election doesn't change that.
Don't you see that's the point? You're accepting the framework of the two party system. God gave us two options and it would be sacrilege to deny him! You're allowing the "harm reduction party" to do harm unchecked, where opposing them in any meaningful way is impossible because it leaves the door open for the other party. You're guaranteeing them unlimited stability so that you can feel good about yourself for "reducing harm" forever. It doesn't matter if you hate the genocide against Palestinians or imperialism if in the end you have the same total political impact as a geriatric suburbanite pig who loves Amerikkka and the Democrats to the core. Again, what is this nebulous "praxis" you referenced?
If your queer friends care more about the potential "harm reduction" done by staying within the lines and allowing the 2.5th Reich to carry on its crimes unchecked than actually promoting independent political organization by driving votes away from the two "options" while there is mass discontent and the potential for a better future either through abstention or voting/campaigning for PSL, the Green Party, etc., then they're not worth it.
God didn’t give us the two-party system, first-past-the-post voting did. If you really want to change the system you should push your state legislature to adopt ranked-choice voting in federal elections, like Maine. Then you can rank your choices, vote third party without a spoiler effect. You’d still have to decide whether to rank Trump over Biden though.
+ 
= you.
You're not fooling anyone. Go back to Reddit.
I'm allowing the harm reduction party to do harm unchecked, and you are wanting people to suffer so they'll see the error of their liberal ways. What you are advocating for is turning that gun around and firing it until the point is made. I am not okay with sacrificing people to stand on pride. If even one less person would die voting for Biden over trump, that's my choice in this exact moment in time. I am not willing to sacrifice untolds number of people on the gamble that maybe the libs will get it this time.
I am not okay with sacrificing people to stand on pride
You can tell yourself that all you like but we can all see that plainly isn't true
Yeah dude. And not voting is doing a world of difference. Basically won the revolution already.
Your insulting me for saying i cannot stand on my pride and tell others to sacrifice when I know I will not be the one to suffer. I don't have a choice in the genocide. Voting Biden, voting trump, voting none ultimately changes nothing because we both are small cogs in the machine. We are still comrades, even if you would rather insult me over it.
Yeah dude voting for the less bad option has done a world of difference. I can feel the harm being reduced already by way of cops getting more money to beat the shit out of me and my friends. The harm feels soooooo reduced after we gave up any pretense of fighting COVID. The harm is just super duper reduced now that roe v. Wade has been overturned. Things have most certainly not gotten worse. Harm reduction is when you signal that genocide is cool and good.
I get your anger. I do not want to argue about it anymore. I got too emotional about this and need to log off and cool it. But I understand your anger and I share it. Im sorry if I implied some kinda moral superiority (bit more than imply) for my reasoning for voting. Ultimately voting does nothing and we both know it. I just cannot get past the reasoning I stated to not vote, but it is my own problem and I shouldn't of put that on anyone else.
We are still comrades, thank you for trying to convince me, I appreciate your view.
You do not get my anger nor do you share it. If you did you would respect the fact that you are not my comrade and you would not insist on calling me that, despite my repeated explanations for why you are not.
You're a painfully obvious little cretin attempting poor rhetorical trick after poor rhetorical trick, repeatedly evading the dozens of people patiently explaining to you why your arguments belies a fundamental rot in your being, instead glamming on to tone or rudeness, since that is the only thing you can cling to in order to avoid introspection.This discussion ends here, you are not a comrade. You are completely okay with genocide and persecution, as long as the aesthetics are right. You are a piece of shit and if you keep on this road you will end up like all your fascist buddies
You have the ability to change for the better, but I do not believe you will ever utilise it, having seen how you've behaved here, what your beliefs are and how you choose to discuss them.
Brother, your really gonna post that at me cause we have a difference in opinion over voting? Your going to accuse me of supporting genocide as long as I can feel good about it? Your going to purity test me so hard you actually flip me into a fascist deserving death?
Jesus Christ dude. We are both god damn communists. We are both socialists. You gonna look me in the god damn eye and tell me I deserve death because of beliefs about voting that you don't even fucking care about? That's actually cold. I'm a human being dude. An actual person on the other side of this phone trying to be genuine with you and everyone else here in this moment and your acting like a monster for what? Because I said we were more alike than not? Because I said we are on the same side? That's fucking insane.
What a fucking shit show. But ya know what. Still comrades. I'll keep calling us that even if you won't. I hope you can calm down and see me as a friend. I'll be out there with you.
You might attempt to pretend this is a simple disagreement over voting, but as I've explained several times to you already it is because you are supporting genocide, the abolition of abortion rights, war, and so many other things. You might pretend you are a friendly comrade, but your behaviour reveals you.
Brother.
Dude.A comrade would respect my gender.
. We are both god damn communists. We are both socialists.
I grow tired of this, I refer back to the many times I've already explained why you do not share my ideology. As you've admitted yourself, you are voting for a fascist.
You gonna look me in the god damn eye and tell me I deserve death because of beliefs about voting that you don't even fucking care about.
Once again: It matters that you support all the shitty things biden do.
I am telling you that if you stepped into my org spouting all that bullshit, you would not be walking out again.An actual person on the other side of this phone trying to be genuine with you and everyone else here in this moment and your acting like a monster for what.
I've told you for what several times, you simply refuse to engage with it.
Plenty of fascists have tried being "genuine" with me, but the fact that you are nice to me matters little, especially when it is obviously disingenuine.Because I said we were more alike than not? Because I said we are on the same side?
Because you support genocide and so many other things. Because you make demands but do not respect them. Because you're very obviously a cretin of a debatebro. Because you do not listen, but insist to continue this farce, because you are presented with opportunities for self betterment, but chose not to take them. Because you are, no matter your words, standing on the same side as fascist genociders.
I'll keep calling us that even if you won't. I hope you can calm down and see me as a friend.
I am very calm. I had hoped the aggressive reaction of someone you considers a friend and a comrade might have encouraged introspection. The fact that it doesn't once again reveals you to be a slimy little liar. You do not consider us comrades or friends, if you did, you would take the words to heart and reconsider.
The fact that you wish us to be comrades do not make us so. Feel free to fool yourself into believing it, that will only make you so much easier to treat
I'm allowing the harm reduction party to do harm unchecked
The only accurate statement you've made.
They aren't the "harm reduction" party though. They are the "A lot of harm" party, and they are trying to scare you by saying that the other party, the "Potentially even more harm" party is worse.
Would you rather be shot in the arm or the leg? Which one? Obviously you'd rather neither one, but you MUST choose one. You must! And you must choose again in 4 years, where it will be your spine or your lung to choose from, but you MUST choose then as well.
I'm sorry, but participating in this system in the hopes that it "buys more time" for the libs to "wake up" is incredibly stupid. That's like participating in bashing someone up in the hopes that the other people bashing them will one day learn their lesson, while you're actively there, participating in the same actions as them. Don't you think that will just encourage them instead of waking them up?
If you want things to change, you start by making it clear that things need to change, instead of grumbling and accepting the status quo. Educating people on demanding more out of the system, (and hopefully much further than that) will do far, far more than just simply going along with the system and accepting the idea that being forced to pick between two actively genocidal parties is in any way acceptable. People vote because they, like yourself, seem to think that there is "no other option." Things will never change if this is how we operate. The way things change is by teaching people that there are alternatives, and they can actually demand things of their government, instead of grovelling and begging, but always falling in line.
Here's that Malcolm X clip again, since you must've missed it the last time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gg3dr-o4_fc
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
I watched the video. I watched it again here. The problem for me is that Malcom X is talking about black folk. He is talking about their block and advocating for essentially self sacrifice at the hands of his "worse option" to make a point. I am not black. Nor am I queer. Nor am I a woman. I am not a target. It is not my sacrifice to give. It is not within my right I believe to tell someone who will suffer that it's necessary to make a point when I know for a fact that I will not suffer. I know for a fact that I wouldn't be a target. I cannot make that decision in good conscious because I am not the one who will pay that price.
How can you honestly be this dense? We've got a dozen people here, all telling you the same thing, and you refuse to get your head out of your own ass and listen to them. VOTING WILL NOT SAVE ANYONE. VOTING ONLY PROVIDES LEGITIMACY TO THIS CORRUPT AND BROKEN SYSTEM THAT HAS GOTTEN THIS BAD DUE TO THIS KIND OF COMPLACENCY. YOU ARE NOT A HERO FOR VOTING FOR A GENOCIDAL WAR CRIMINAL, EVEN IF HE IS GOING UP AGAINST ANOTHER GENOCIDAL WAR CRIMINAL. YOUR VOTE WILL CHANGE NOTHING, AND WILL DO NOTHING EXCEPT STROKE YOUR SMUG EGO. Fuck you.
Literally since the founding of the country we’ve never had 50% or more turnout. People who abstain from voting have been the majority in this country this whole time. If not voting fixed a broken system why isn’t it fixed if the majority already don’t vote?
Yes because its never been a democracy.
Do you ever think about the reasons why voter turnout is so low here? Consider, by comparison, Cuba, which has over 90% voter turnout. What is different there to here? Why do so many more people (percentage-wise) vote in Cuba than in the US?
Instead of spending your time in here getting insulted (which is what is going to happen if you keep commenting in this thread), you might instead go research voting in Cuba. Try to answer for yourself why their voter turnout is so high. Then ask yourself if we here in the US can learn something from the way Cuba does politics.
Or you can stay here and get dunked on. You do you.
Nice of you to acknowledge that I’m mostly being insulted and dunked on, but if that was going to stop me from commenting why would I even use Lemmy, or any social media?
Voting in Cuba is pointless for national elections. It’s a one-party state so each candidate runs unopposed in their district. One-party states are bad. There is nothing the U.S. can learn from voting in Cuba, it is one of the least democratic countries in Latin America.
Voter turnout has been 88% or better in Australia since 1925. Why didn’t you list them as an example? Voter turnout is good there because voters are fined a few hundred dollars for not voting. They have a mandatory voting law. That could increase voter turnout in the United States, but if it didn’t come with rules that employers must give their employees time to vote, and states must have fair standards for registering to vote, then it would just be fining poor people for being poor.
Other things the United States could do to increase voter turnout: make Election Day on the weekend instead of a Tuesday, which was selected so farmers traveling by horse and buggy could get to the polls. We don’t have that many farmers anymore, much less ones that travel by horse and buggy. That’s really the only rule at the federal level on how states run elections, other rules to increase voter turnout would be implemented by individual states. Early voting, mail-in voting, the ability to register to vote when you’re interacting with a state office anyway, like when you get a driver’s license, or pay your taxes. Letting people vote after they’ve served their prison sentence. Letting people vote while serving their prison sentence. &c.
Nice of you to acknowledge that I’m mostly being insulted and dunked on, but if that was going to stop me from commenting why would I even use Lemmy, or any social media?
New tagline dropped lmao.
Anyways you're wrong and you know it, but you pretend otherwise because you're a pervert for debating. Go choke on a brick of shit.
Voting in Cuba is pointless for national elections. It’s a one-party state so each candidate runs unopposed in their district. One-party states are bad. There is nothing the U.S. can learn from voting in Cuba, it is one of the least democratic countries in Latin America.
Ok, thanks for telling me who you are! I can now comfortably join the group of people telling you to fuck off back to reddit.
Man, you can't even name the elephant in the room filling the room with elephant shit: the electoral college makes voting for president outside of like 6 states entirely pointless, which would obviously have an effect on voter turnout. People tend to not want to waste their time voting in a sham election where the results are already decided. You've wasted your time in Hexbear posting a bunch of garbage for what? So people living in New York, Alabama, California, Arkansas, Massachusetts, and Texas can be convinced to check Biden's name as if we don't already know who will win those states.
Voting in Cuba is pointless for national elections. It’s a one-party state so each candidate runs unopposed in their district. One-party states are bad. There is nothing the U.S. can learn from voting in Cuba, it is one of the least democratic countries in Latin America.
How can you just sit there and type "Cuba has elections where only one person is allowed to run for each office"? It's such a stupid thing to say, as though any country would willingly make an exhibition of its own falseness like that. You would do well to actually research Cuba instead of relying on information you got through cultural osmosis from tar-mongers in Miami. In Cuba, you run as a de-facto independent against everyone else, and indeed that includes challenging incumbents. I hope you weren't the same person pretending to be a communist elsewhere in the thread while spreading the most moronic misinformation about a country you've clearly never researched. Like, you know that the US, the entity that you've admitted was fascist as shit just earlier, has been slandering Cuba for close to a century now, right?
One-party states are bad.
I'd rather have one workers' party than two capitalist parties.
If I wanted to speak to a smug redditor, I'd go to reddit.
And your a hero for not voting? Neither of us are. We ultimately will not change anything and this argument will do nothing but effect me and you. I have my reasons, I have explained them. I am sorry if I said explicitly and implied that it was a more moral choice to vote than to not. I let myself get emotional and said things I do not really believe. I cannot in my own mind be okay with not voting for the reasons I stated. This is not a judgement. It was, now it is not.
At the end of the day we are comrades. We have the same goal. I'm sorry we both got angry over something so pointless.
You are not a comrade. You are the Dixiecrat Malcolm X was talking about. I see the knife in your hands, you won't stabbing my back.
Don't pull this "we both said some mean things, so let's both say we're sorry and make up" bullshit. I said some mean things, you were advocating for voting for a genocidal war criminal on the grounds that another genocidal war criminal might win if they don't.
Would you have voted for Himmler over Hitler? Picked the "harm reduction" nazi? Would you have been insisting that "sure the system is broken, but we must vote, if voting for the harm reduction nazi would save even one life, then it is a moral duty to participate in their sham elections and give them the legitimacy they need to stay in power!"
Look, I'm done arguing about it. I made my point, you made yours, we both agree it's pointless. Neither of us came in with the possibility of being convinced, and that isn't going to change with more arguing.
I will in fact pull the "we both said mean things, say sorry and make up"
You don't have to say anything. You can keep being angry, I have already gotten you there and I apologize for that. Doing this now I'm sure will just make you even more mad. But please understand that I get your anger. I share it. We are closer than we are apart. We share the same goal.
Have a good night friend.
You don't share our anger though! We are angry about a genocide that you want to give passive support towards! Ok? You don't "get it" at all, and you need to get off your smug high horse and admit that to yourself, that you do not understand why we are mad at you. Fuck off with this faux "I understand really!" bullshit, you're not fooling anyone except yourself.
At the end of the day we are comrades
You're not a comrade by any definition, you're a fascist sympathizing genocide supporting scumbag who hides behind the struggles of marginalized people to advance an incoherent politics centered around YOUR sense of personnel comfort
It's quite obvious real world suffering has absolutely no valence on your beliefs except as rhetorical tools to bludgeon people who upset your comfort-centered sensibilities
You are a comrade of genocidaires, not us. You are no more our comrade than the SPD was to Thalmann
Theyll never get it, thats the point. The third world suffer eternal because liberals dont care if thr wrist bending doesnt work
This isn't a marvel movie, you stupid fuck. NONE of what you have written is in ANY WAY not a contradiction.
And what the fuck has Biden done about any of your concerns? You think he gives a fuck about LGBTQ people?
The best case scenario is you own the libs and while they scratch their heads...
Oh, here's your problem! You are thinking like a child. This is what a child thinks elections are. You'll never understand my position because you don't understand the problem.
Your words are empty to me because i can tell by your attitude you do not "hear" what i am saying, or even hear the why of anything.
How could you? You are too busy deciding that everything, even genocide, must be viewed through the lens of the coming election.
Good god there's gonna be a lot of masked liberals "talking sense to the left" coming up, huh?
Get better copypasta, because "don't you care bout my queer/brown friends?" is already played out.
You are too busy deciding that everything, even genocide, must be viewed through the lens of the coming election.
Wow, perfect! The liberal view in a nutshell. Things only have relevance to libs through the lens of the next election to them. Insight unlocked.
Biden is putting palastinians in the fucking ground and that is a complaint
Genocide is a little bit more than a complaint. Especially given that americans are supposed to stop Trump from doing the exact same thing.
Biden is putting palastinians in the fucking ground and that is a complaint
You think anyone's gonna take your unprincipled ass seriously when you call genocide a fuckin "complaint", you don't care about queer people motherfucker, you hide behind their struggles trying to maintain your crumbling sense of normalcy
I want Trump to win precisely because liberal cockroaches like you will be forced to pretend to take genocide seriously, and in that way LESS people will indeed suffer, because there will be more pressure to oppose fascism unlike today when even the libs have gone full Nazi
Imagine taking his unprincipled ass serious when he can't even spell Palestine correct when the fuckin nation's been in the news for six fuckin months
I'd sacrifice every cishet white Amerikan in this country for any oppressed subject-of-empire in the world in a New York minute. Death to the settler empire, death to the DNC. Voting absolutely does affect my community; do you realize that Biden has sent more military surplus through the 1033 program to PDs all over the country than Trump did with the same amount of time? The cops in my city are two steps and another humvee from being a whole-ass new branch of the military, some City Force-type shit, but "voting doesn't affect the orgs in my community", fuckin sure.
I hope to Fuck you're the first one to learn the consequences of your electoralist garbage.
I am not willing to sacrifice people,
Yes you fucking are, you're willing to sacrifice 40,000 Palestinians and counting