"If you didn't want fascism you should have voted!"

Reminder that the Democrats would be considered even further right than the Conservative Party in Canada. And Canada itself is still considered pretty right wing with no big leftist parties (NDP is still center-right at best)
- Yeah but Canada been allowing USA to get away with its bullshit around the world for the last 300 years for its own benefit so their hands aren't quite as clean as you may think.
  
  You're completely correct and I for one am hoping the recent events finally get Canada to break ties with the US so we stop enabling them. We also have our share of atrocities separate from the US that we need to atone for, namely the treatment of Indigenous peoples and the environment.

Bought a lot of European stock during the trump crash so..
THANK YOU COMMUNISTS FOR NOT VOTING 😁😁😁😁
6% total increase in a mooooooooooonth lalalallalala
Ahhhhhhh bonjour mademoiselle.. mon chérie.... Ma femme pour toujours 🌝
- Why do you think communists didn't vote? Are you believing what Reddit and Lemmy.world are posting again?
  
  Go fish some trout and salmon. The post is about not having to vote as a marxist leninist.
  My country has compulsory voting, into the voting booth you go matey
- yo arrête de parler français je t'en prie 🤮

Neoconservatism ruled the last 40 years but it's not even a "conservative" doctrine. It's a bipartisan Zionist foreign policy. Trump is a knee jerk response to Dems alienating people with centrist social opinions, Republicans shipping jobs overseas and both of them sustaining pointless forever wars.
- Republicans shipping jobs overseas
  I got news for you buddy. Look up who crafted and championed NAFTA
  
  I'm being intentionally simplistic. Of course Dems are in on the grift of hollowing out the country.
- Yeah its not just republicans doing that

I'm not American but there's so many socialists on here refusing to vote for the lesser evil because they don't offer the right candidates and advocating revolution.
why not take a page from the right's clearly successful playbook and vote more in local politics and primaries. Maga managed to turn the republicans into exactly what they wanted this way, but the American left just sits there waiting for someone to start a revolution.
well I understand it might be late now and elections might not do much going forward, but jesus it's like the only option you guys saw is voting for whoever the parties put toward or revolution.
- This is a very naive take and calling someone as enthusiastic about genocide as Biden/Kamala "lesser evil" just shows you don't give a fuck about people in the global south. I voted for the only true harm reduction candidate and that was PSL. Please, respectfully, take one second to think of the people on the other end of the barrel of the gun that is US foreign policy. Or even think about trans people and migrants in the US whom both parties continue to persecute and subjugate. Comments like yours just scream "I'm super privileged and just don't like this one guy for being so vulgar while doing the same shit as every president before him".
  
  I just think you should consider not only the ideal outcome of your vote but also the most likely one. what did voting third party actually do here other than make you feel good? Trump has in fact been doing worse than kamala would have on the middle east and is gunning for a war against Iran. in addition but obviously not nearly as bad as the genocide, his tariffs will negatively impact a lot of people in southeast asia.
  but more than all that, and I'm not saying you personally do this, I'm tired of people not voting in any election but the presidential and then complaining about the choices they ended up with.
- In my city, we have a barely-there progressive, third party with a presence in the city and county government. It's all that remains of an attempt to in the 1990's to launch a Midwestern political party based on an electoral reform called "fusion voting," which would allow a candidate to get the endorsement of multiple parties, and appear on the ballot multiple times as a candidate under each of those party banners. That way, the candidate would know where their support came from, without the "spoiler effect." I learned from the Wikipedia page that it was an important tactic in the movement to abolish slavery.
  But, in this case, the Democratic Party (technically, the Democratic Farm Labor Party) went to court to shoot down that idea, arguing that it was too confusing to voters. The American left isn't just sitting here waiting for someone to start a revolution, it has two major political parties actively suppressing it.
  Amusingly, one tidbit of information that I just now learned from that Wikipedia article, presented without further comment:
  In Milwaukee, Wisconsin, during the heyday of the sewer socialists, the Republican and Democratic parties would agree not to run candidates against each other in some districts, concentrating instead on defeating the socialists. These candidates were usually called non-partisan, but sometimes were termed fusion candidates instead.
- why not take a page from the right’s clearly successful playbook and vote more in local politics and primaries.
  Because they're fucking lazy and would rather shitpost on Lemmy et al instead of doing something. Then they whine about how protests don't count, voting doesn't count, writing op eds don't count. Apparently nothing counts ever and they have some magical solution they refuse to do. Then they vaguely gesticulate to violent solutions as they ask why somebody else doesn't do it. It's so fucking predictable. Don't forget the obligatory mention of how a general strike will somehow solve it all and they're just - wait for it - waiting for someone else to put it together.
  Change takes time and a lot of not-so-glamorous, grinding work. You can't sit around for 3.5 years waiting for the general with your thumb up your ass then go "wah wah wahhhhhhh no candidate represents me"
  
  Because they're fucking lazy and would rather shitpost on Lemmy et al instead of doing something.
  Liberals, every accusation a confession. It is objectively and demonstrably the coward "lesser evil" voters who are lazy and refuse to do anything of value, patting themselves on the back and thinking they've done their "civic duty" by penciling in the bubble endorsing genocide so they can call it a day. Socialists are the ones who realize that actual work has to be done for any material difference to ever be made and you have to constantly fight systemic injustice and materially help marginalized people rather than do a little masturbatory performative nod to the status quo once every couple (or every 4) years. The people you're calling lazy are the ones who are out there volunteering their labor to provide food and other essentials for unhoused people or people otherwise impoverished by the system of exploitation that both republican and democrat fascists force upon the world. It's the socialists who are out in the street doing what they can to build parallel power structures that will continue to help actual people while cloistered, privileged, treat-obsessed liberals sit content in their bubble, pretending they spoke truth to power by voting for that same power.
  What's immediately hilarious about your lie is that most socialists did vote (despite knowing how insufficient it is to accomplish literally anything worthwhile) they just didn't vote for the blue donkey version of the fascists that liberals like you worship, they voted for De La Cruz (or La Riva before her). So saying that it's socialists who are lazy for not voting is an immediate tell that you're either painfully ignorant or cynically lying (likely both) since most socialists did do that ineffectual bare minimum thing you foolishly think is so important, they just aren't stupid cowards like the liberals who pretend they did such hard work by filling out a ballot for fascists. Thanks for outing yourself as being the one guilty of everything you just accused socialists of.
- Because it doesn't work. It will never work. There is no amount of voting in America will change the fact that it is and always has been ruled by the rich elites who maintain an socioeconomic system that prevents change.
  
  Your apathy and disillusionment is affecting the rest of the world now.
  Is your system broken? Yes. Could it be fixed through slow progress if people cared enough to vote, it likely could have. Bernie would have tried at least. You’re probably too far gone now for this path, but you can still prevent human rights atrocities by voting, that is still within your power.
- The American left tried very hard to get representation within the Democratic party, and the Democratic party pulled out all the stops to prevent it, in a way they would never do to oppose the Republicans, and that the Republicans would never do to oppose MAGA.
  
  From what I remember, they repeatedly voted against anything left of what they considered centre in the primaries because they followed the theory that only centrists (or those as close to the other party as possible) win elections, by swaying swing voters in the middle. The other party had long abandoned the idea by this point however, because chasing what they considered centre often meant upsetting those finding themselves outside of that centre.
  If the people voting in the primaries were more representative of those outside views, perhaps there could have been another outcome. However, not many of those people vote in primaries.

That's right, everybody knows that the left and the right are perfectly equally bad, and the act of voting to stop the bleeding and starting a revolution are mutually exclusive /s
And then after years of this nonsense, people wonder how the poor voter turnout that got the fascist elected happened.
- You believe the Democrats are 'the left'?
- who said anything about the left?
- You can't stop the bleeding, liberals are permascratched now
- The act of stabbing your artery in order to stop the gangrene you got from repeatedly stabbing your arteries is indeed just as bad as dipping your gangrenous tissue into your open wounds to spread it faster. Neither make you better. Neither is a true stopping point.
  Or in other words, Dems are the clutch and reps are the gas. You have no brakes. You might be able to stop without a brake, maybe even stay stopped. But shits going to get worse no matter which you choose since you're actively ignoring the brakes.
  
  I like the metaphor of a shipwrecked sailor clinging to a piece of flotsam in the cold water a mile from shore. He's losing body heat, and eventually hypothermia will set in and he will drown. But if he lets go and starts to swim for shore, he'll lose body heat even faster, use up his energy, and he probably won't make it. The "harm reduction" argument says that he should reduce his heat loss, and stay clinging to the flotsam. He's safe right now, while attempting to get to shore is difficult and dangerous.
  Of course, by the time that the fallacy of that strategy becomes apparent (gestures at current events), he's too cold and weak to even attempt the swim.

This fact doesn't really invalidate the initial statement though.
We would not be experiencing what we are currently experiencing presently if the Dems won. This isn't an endorsement of the Dems, just reality
I view voting as a means to steer us to possibilities. Revolution and change won't come through the ballot box but who gets voted in can influence that one way or another.
- It's not even a fact.
  Conservatives could say the same thing.
- There's nothing incorrect about this comment but I get the feeling you're getting something backwards. Dems weren't getting anyone closer to revolution, but Trump is. Under the past few Democratic admins, most of the US were complacent and they just put their faith in the imagined progressive forces of the Democratic Party to make things better. Under the Republicans, way more people get radicalized and start to look for solutions outside of electoralism. That does come with the flipside that the Republicans are more brazen about crushing dissent and arresting protesters, but Democrats also happily use the surveillance state and the militarized police against the left (see: Palestine encampment crackdowns last year).
  
  Under the past few Democratic admins, most of the US were complacent and they just put their faith in the imagined progressive forces of the Democratic Party to make things better. Under the Republicans, way more people get radicalized and start to look for solutions outside of electoralism.
  Me eight months ago:
  If Harris wins, the Democratic base will continue to sleep. You can do anything when the Dems are in the WH. It was under Trump that protesters shut down airport terminals, but under Biden the base sleeps regarding immigration & asylum. That’s what Glenn Greenwald and I learned from the GWB to Obama transition: the Dems sleep when their team is in office. Greenwald “changed” from hero to villain without changing the least bit; the only difference was who was in office. Unlike the Dem-aligned media, he didn’t go to sleep.
  You can war as much as you want. You can run a fucking star chamber. You can stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody.
- yeah nice try, not working. deal with the consequences

As an lndian, l know to what kind of human beings we hand over our sovereignty.
- Modi?
  
  Meaning ?? Well, he's our PM...... Yes........

There is nothing more cringe than seeing americans debating wheter they're fascist or not due to X or Y politician rhetoric when they have been dropping bombs abroad for their entire existence.
- They really thing that there’s a huge difference between their two mainstream parties.
  In the U.K., the two mainstream parties are incredibly similar, but broadly speaking, we are aware of that.
- They really thing that there’s a huge difference between their two mainstream parties.
  In the U.K., the two mainstream parties are incredibly similar, but broadly speaking, we are aware of that.

Before you reply to me directly please understand:
The US overthrew democracy in the country I am from
The US installed a fascist king with secret police that terrorized my family
Once kicked out the US supported a dictator in the neighboring country where the other half of my family lived
The US funded both sides of a war between my country and the neighboring one that led to mass civilian deaths, one side directly by giving a dictator weapons and cash and the other side clandestinely thru laundering money by selling drugs in Latin America
Once they lost that war turned on the dictator in the neighboring country and invented reasons to illegally invade. Twice
Toppled the regime and left a power vacuum that consumed all my family that lived there for literally hundreds of years.
Created material conditions in the country my family is from that forced them to leave or die
You Americans are not the good guys, your country and government is evil to its core.
- My best guess is that you are from Iran? If memory serves, this got kicked off via the Anglo-Persian oil company, 51% owned by the Brits. (They go by BP now.) The company was a private entity that was treating the Iranian workforce poorly in terms of qualify of life and profit sharing with workers. The ruler in Iran was tired of their country and land being used to generate profits for foreign entities. The profit sharing with the company was renegotiated in the somewhere in the 1930s. (my memory is a bit spotty on the exact date.) In Narrator voice: The company did not abide by that agreement. During world war 2, the allied forces basically occupied Iran to secure the oil fields to keep supply chains intact during the war; so this would have been happening in the 1940s. This created a push for nationalizing the company and supply of oil, leading up to the 1950s and in 1951 is when Iran nationalized it under prime minister Mossadegh. There was lots of back and forth between the Brits and Iran, and threats of going to international court. The Shah was a bit more friendly to how business was being done between Iran and the Birts. This led to an attempt by the Shah to replace Mossadegh in 1952, and led to riots against the Shah and perceived foreign intervention. This failed. Mossadegh was pissed and eventually Mossadegh expelled the British embassy in October 1952. The brits cried to the USA, which led to the CIA to depose Mossadegh via the Shah, using underhanded bribery and corruption type shenanigans. This led to another 2 decades of Iran getting fucked by the brits and the USA, which eventually was a factor in the hostage crisis in 1979. Yeah, America was pissed about that. I was born in 1979 and have very early memories of Reagan saying shit like we won't negotiate with terrorists. When Iraq went to war with Iran, the US was on the books as supporting Iraq. There was an embargo preventing the US from selling weapons to Iran. That didn't stop the USA. They funneled weapons and training to contras in Nicaragua who would then supply Iran, simply because the USA didn't want Iran to be influenced by the Russia and communism. This is not taught in American public schools at all. American history curriculum usually ends with the civil rights movement. This was all stuff I had to learn on my own after hearing about it first hand from my best friend who lived through the Iraq/Iran war in the 80s. Yes, we are the baddies.
- lol i can say almost all of this for myself, and it wouldn't narrow it down where i'm from. fuck the us empire and its apologists.
- I would try to guess your country but there are too many that the US has done this to
  
  Point 1 definitely has some 50+ countries in it, but point 2 almost immediately leads to Iran, who suffered a coup in the 1950s because the then president wanted to nationalize the oil reserves.
  Point 3 is the rise of Saddam. Point 4 is the Iran-Iraq war of the 1980s and the Iran-Contra kerfuffle. Point 5 is the two invasions of Iraq by the USA, 1991 and 2003, the latter leading directly to point 6.
  
  My guess is iran
- Yeah, but you're a foreigner, so your life doesn't' matter.
  
  worse, they'll say that he's privileged for not being a gay in trump's america, since that's perhaps the worst thing that could happen to a human being.

I try to remind people that we have no "Leftist" party or even a "Centre left" party anymore. We have Center right and far right now.
- Its far right and extreme right from a sensible European point of view
  
  we'll get it sorted just in time for the big populations declines... Or we won't

Republicans aren't 100% gun ho about trumps recent (and easily foreseen) fuck ups.
If we replace First-past-the-post voting, we could easily see the republican party get replaced with a more reasonable conservative party like the democrats.
Plus, you know, screaming at people unrepresented in government to vote for your preferred political party isn't actually democracy.
If Alaska can do it, so can your state!
- Alaska is an interesting place, politically. Last I knew, the major parties there were Libertarian Republicans and the Green Party. I'm not surprised they have a different voting system.
  
  Prob because they were once Russian territory, they have Russian pluralism. Or maybe not.
- The electoral reforms would certainly help, but you risk the Trudeau effect of a candidate running on them, then getting in office and saying, "Well, it can't be that broken if I still managed to win."

The absolute highest priority in American politics should be getting rid of the 2 party system. I’m not going to pretend to know how exactly, but I think a good step in the right direction would be some form of a ranked voting system.
- Artillery

The Democrats suck but there's a huge difference between voting for boring corporatists and 100% concentrated evil. Don't make me tap the chart.
- Pretending Democrats aren't corporatists is just dishonest at this point.
- boring corporatists just committed genocide
- The "boring corporatists" in germany put Hitler in power btw
- Another reminder that BlueMaga don't consider Palestinians human; their complete extermination is just "boring corporatism"
- What's the huge difference in outcome? Why is voting the only type of action being considered?
- You don't get to do a genocide and then say the other guy is "100% concentrated evil."
  
  No matter what action you took in this last election. You were voting for genocide.
  Republican - genocide
  Democrat - genocide with less fascism.
  No vote - The two major parties are pro-genocide so you are genocide by default.
  Third party - none of the third party candidates had a chance so genocide by default.
  So accusing anyone of voting for genocide is kind of silly because everyone did. No one really had a choice.
  
  You don't get to define what evil is when you voted for the antichrist.
- "We don't have to argue with Communists, we can just call them dirty commies and plug our ears"
  
  "Everyone who doesn't share my casually fascist politics is just irrational, mentally incompetent if you will, and not worthy of consideration"
  
  So true, bestie, everyone who disagrees with me and cites their sources are irrational. True rational enlightened thinkers just call their interlocutors tankies and log off.
  
  Sounds like someone who is really confident in the strength of their arguments and the courage of their convictions

You had a choice OP
Vote to maintain a bad status quo
Vote to make things a billion times worse via fascism
Start a revolution
Instead you chose secret option d. Make 'both sides equally bad' memes to justify the acceptance of fascism.
Always vote against the fascist. Or revolt.
- I think the Democratic Party is more to blame for running a Status Quo candidate when there's so much dissatisfaction with the state of things. When people are angry, the guy who blows up the system is more appealing than the person trying to maintain it. You gotta actually promise to overhaul things, that's how Obama won.
- The economic system in the US guarantees fascism, the rules are made up and votes are don't matter.
  I didn't vote because I'm not American. They should revolt that is the only answer.
  
  I agree totally. All the upper-middle class socialists in this thread have no doubt been setting this in action.
  Or they've been doing nothing but navel gazing on Lemmy.
- All 3 points are wrong. 1 There is no status quo, they have demonstrably both gone further right. Which brings me to 2 2 There is only fascism and fascism-light. Genocide Joe also built the wall, deported massively more people:
  
  Bombed civilians in Yemen and displaced half a million people there for his genocidal proxy.
  And many mor scummy thing.
  3 They will never have a revolution, only placate Trump and move even further to the right to win back some votes.
  And people will take it, americans are pacified and harmless, some lame protests are not 'revolution'.
  Gullible AF as shown by the massive upvotes you get from the many libs here.
  They will all be hearded back into the status quo sytem by Bernie or AOC the new sheepdog puppy in training to prevent revolution or a valid 3rd party.
  Sad that even a non-american as yourself, not confined to thinking inside the box can be this wrong.
  The other side of the uniparty thinks like you and is refusing to admit their wrongs, how bad do you have to be to not be an alternative to fascists? All of them get what they deserve.
  
  Mate, assuming youre an American, whatever you need to feel better about your inaction is up to you
  Bottom line: once an Americans ability to vote is gone all your catchphrases mean nothing. The fascist is the one who will take that action.
  American involvement in the middle east has worsened the situation for Palestinians since Trump was elected. That doesn't mean Biden was anything but an awful leader but Trump is worse. Way way worse. Everything he does both foreign and domestic was enabled by those who both voted for him and those who refused to vote against him.
- Start a revolution
  Why do people keep smugly citing this as the third option when there are a million better options before outright rebellion?
  As if any rights or liberties we've won as a working class have ever come from anything other than violent opposition and disruption.
  
  Revolution is the only option for long-term gains, rather than short-term concessions. As long as the bourgeoisie controls the state, they will use it to wind back any concessions they give out temporarily.
- You supported a genocide.
  
  Really? You're assuming of course that I'm am American citizen, which I'm not, or didn't attend numerous protests to support Palestinians in the country I do live in, which I did.
  The whole world is not the USA.
  
  So did you.
- Vote to make things a billion times worse
  Your daily reminder that blueMAGA liberals don't consider Palestinians human
  (I'm also curious how they determined op is an American eligible voter in a swing state)
  
  I guess the same way you assumed I am?

Democrats spent their entire life understanding what FPTP is and their entire political understanding hangs on explaining it to other people any time Democrats get criticized.
- nooo dont worry ranked choice voting will saaave usss
  The cry of Liberals every 8 years when they get interested in politics for 6 months
- I mean, I want to replace FPTP though. Any kind of proportional system is ideal, but Sequential Proportional Approval Voting is ideal.
  
  Democrats hugely benefit from FPTP so they will never advocate for replacing it.
  It is a catch22 where the only answer is to call the Democrats bluff and vote for other parties until the Democrats cave to voter demands.
  Democrats also refuse to acknowledge that not voting for them is the only way left to pressure them.
  
  Hey, that system is pretty cool. I like it. You should keep in mind, though, the social relations of production that undergird political reality are much more impactful over the outcome of elections or any other political process, than which specific voting system we have. If the world switched to proportional approval voting tomorrow, it wouldn't change the relationship between the international imperialist institutions, the workers of the imperial core, and the workers of the periphery. >80% of productive labor would still be done in the periphery, imperialism would still just find ways to quiet dissent and destroy its opponents.

You can always count on @hamid@vegantheoryclub.org to get most rabbid libs stirred up and face their own contradictions (without taking away any insights from the posts themselves anyway lol)..
Literally every post that just puts the quiet part loud upsets them, lol. Please keep it up, love to see it.
- it's always funny to see the redditor libs be like "this instance is so Reddit!" with zero self awareness. Why did they even leave Reddit lmao
  
  They like the optics of leaving reddit, but like the ability to spew bigotry on flat.world and act like it's their digital 1st amendment rights.
  
  It takes less time for cats to realize who the other cat is in the mirror, than it takes for your average shitlib to reckon with their own projections. Feels absolutely wrong to put cats and libs in the same sentence, but I swear I can't think of any other analogy.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window

This is why revolution and working class organization is necessary.
Also funny when people complain about Leftists critiquing the Dems. Pre-election you said to wait, now it's post election and the same complaints arise.
- "First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season."
  Shallow understanding from people of goodwill is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection." - mlk jr
- Blue MAGA: Its always never the time for criticism.

As said by a wise man, a silent majority does not exist in policy.

Democrats commit genocide and pretend to be sad about it. Republicans commit genocide and post the 🤣 emoji
- Democrats commit genocide and post the🙏 emoji
  Republicans commit genocide and post the 🤣 emoji

Dear Liberals,
I am so glad I can't see the bullshit from lemmy.world on my server
Your economic system guarantees fascism. You can't vote your way out of it. Capitalist modes of production inevitably concentrate power and lead to fascism. It is unavoidable.
- actually this time it'll be different, we just won't have another crisis of capitalism that requires the stamping out of revolutionaries

gotta say, I'm extremely glad .world defederated from Hexbear. viewing this thread over here is night and day from looking at it on .ml and seeing The Smartest People in The Room say "ahh, so you just support trump then, got it
"
- I'll never understand why those people quit reddit. What could their problem be with it?
  
  Reddits just not their favorite flavor of boot anymore. They want federated boots.
- LOL I'm thinking the same thing, I looked at it logged on out .ml and its chock full of fantasy thinking
  
  if I can't criticize Dems before the election (that just ends up supporting trump) and I can't criticize Dems after the election (that just ends up supporting trump), when CAN I criticize them? it seems like they just don't want me criticizing them at all!!

Politicians will never save us. The democrats won’t; the republicans won’t. Anywhere. Ever. Period.
- This is the truth. Politics that really matter happen at home. Prioritize self-reliance and live in accordance with your values to the best of your ability. It's literally the best you can hope for which is why it is the singular pursuit of people throughout history. The smart man knows the government does not and will never care about him.
  
  Carlin told us in the plainest words possible: all politicians are full of shit. The only ones that can save us is us.

The Democratic party is the Graveyard of Social Movements

Soooo Dems won't make it better but least won't make it worse. If 2 party then easy choice.
Shame people didnt do this 20 years ago and voted gop out of existence.
- But they did make it worse, their policies led directly to where the US is now.
  
  But they did make it worse, their policies led directly to where the US is now.
  It's so fucking ridiculous!
  In the past 30 years Dems were in power 2/3 of the time, so they very obviously did contribute to the state of affairs that led to Trump being elected twice!
  Or if the country moved rightward regardless of what team the President represents, then it means voting in this system is only ceremonial and completely useless activity.
  Either Dems are enablers of Fascists or voting is useless, there's no third option.
- twenty years ago people gave the Dems a super-majority; they used it to lock in the fascist policies of the Bush admin and give a massive hand out the wealthy.
  
  911 kind of destroy any semblance of reason in the country. Everyone was angry. Tried to talk reason? Just look at Dixie chicks and boondocks version of MLK.
- Soooo Dems won’t make it better but least won’t make it worse.
  Obama oversaw the largest decrease in black household wealth in american history
  
  Not because of housing crisis? I seriously don't know what specifically he did.
- No, my friend, you're wrong. The Washington Democrats do make it worse. They (most of them) are willing participants in making life worse for the average American, and they know it, and they don't care.
  
  Well we know it. A few dinos are collaborating for power trips. I recall a few ruining quite a few plans.
- but at least won't make it worse.
  Any arguments for harm reduction were gunned down in the streets of Gaza.
  
  "Gaza? never heard of it.
  Lalalalalalalallaal cant hear you. Head in sand.
  Genocide? Innocent lives?
  No no no insurgents even that baby and those reporting and uh its in the Torah..."
  I could do narcissist prayer but It disgusts me to go any further.
- The function of a ratchet is to make an object go in one direction more easily. Democrats fulfill a function in propeling the country rightward. This was arguably not true 80 years ago but post-Reagan they are part of a process of rightward movement. Voting for and legitimizing them is moving the country right and making things worse.
  
  I get not voting dem so please vote for a third party. And do not sleep on it.
  Just never vote gop.
  Im not hoping for dems to change im hoping they stay status quo long enough for gop to die.
- ???
  25 years ago the Democrats won the election against Bush and then Gore gave up. They personally handed the presidency over to the republicans. Democrats like to lose even when they win. Then 21 years ago the Dems ran on a platform of "we'll kill Muslims more efficiently than the Republicans."
  Democrats don't want to win. Their primary purpose is to prevent a left from existing.
  Also don't forget Nancy Pelosi's statement about the country needing a "strong republican party" last year. These people are ghouls and aren't to be trusted.
  
  Oh bet they need a strong gop. Of course they do they need thier boogie man. Without the gop guess who's the most right wing popular party now? Can't rack in that donation money without them.
- You need to zoom out. Imagine you're looking back at this moment from 100 years in the future. If people said "the Dems won't make it better but at least they won't make it worse" and just kept the system going, do you think it will ever lead to progress? Will the whole system ever improve?
  You need to look for a solution outside of that system. Stop looking for lesser evils in the ballot box. First, look to the people immediately around you and try to join local organizations that might be directly working to improve their conditions (soup kitchens, women's shelters, etc). Then, organize labor: figure out how to join a union, if there isn't one read the IWW (or any other big union near you) manual on organizing your workplace and find support to start organizing your workplace. Then from there, your objective should be to take the workers' struggle to the national and international stage. Change doesn't come from the ballot box, it comes from building alternative power structures ourselves.
  
  I agree with all you said. No it won't improve just give time for gop to age out. Since they are actively making things worse. Least dems aren't trying that hard to deport people or remove renewables.
  Though I think change could have happened if 20 mil people voted third party or for Harris instead of sleeping in. Seeing Trump lose twice would have been a great catalyst for changing gop.
- Don’t make me tap the sign again
- The problem with having 365 million people or so in a sick society that encouraged and rewards destroying each other is that things get worse automatically.
  Dems doing nothing makes things worse. Reps doing nothing makes things worse. Its a prisoners dilemma where the only winning move is to kill the cops and hope for the best.
  If al gore won we'd have still invaded Afghanistan and Iraq, it would just be in bush jrs first term in 2004 that we invade Iraq.
  
  You are Probably right though im sure gore would have pushed for renewables. Thats like his whole thing.

laughs in lives in a monarchy

I mean... I'm not in love with the idea of "blocking movement to the left", but I sure as fuck would take that over the freespin to the right we are on for now. Like, I get that Dem's need to step their game way the fuck up because you don't win elections by being the "second worst choice"... but still. If we didn't want accelerated fascism...
- You didn't have a choice, the economic system in the US concentrates power in the hand of people with money and they are fascists. If it wasn't 2024 it would be 2028 after 4 years of congressional stalling. The path the US is on is predetermined, they don't have to fix every election to the vote, they fix a percentage of them over the course of decades to push the policy to the right.
  
  You're not wrong. But if I had cancer, and a doctor gave me a way to delay the inevitable, I would take it. Maybe it can't be fixed, maybe it's totally fubar. But I don't have it in me to just give up and willingly let people suffer without a fight.
- Blocking movement to the left is why you're left with a rightward trend. Not just because the right itself "moves right" but because Dems' political nature breeds false consciousness and confused disillusionment. Dems promise basic things like a student debt jubilee and then do a little weak attempt at it. So then people leave them behind. Even worse, Dems help create the degrading conditions that provokes an anti-liberal backlash (liberalism being the dominant ideology of capitalism, not just US Dems), and then Dems work their hardest to fight the associated leftward shift. But not the right: their radicals are useful for crushing that new left, as the left is anticapitalist.
  Most importantly, the bourgeoisie electoral system provides an illusion of control. You don't actually choose the lesset evil. You just throw in a vote for candidates preselected for you by capital and the party (a party in which you have no say) who will never actually be able to fight the right or adopt anticapitalist positions, and will therefore never be left. You, and the people, are not in control in this scenario. This scenario just provides consent for what capital wanted anyways, just with two different flavors: genocidal fascism with a good PR team for the theoretically empathetic and genocidal fascism with an okay PR team for braying hogs.
- Up until the moment we have enough confirmed support for a progressive movement, status quo is a hell of a lot better than accelerated fascism; if only to buy more time to build the aforementioned progressive support. I'm all for actual leftward movement, but gambling on unconfirmed support is stupid. Even the liberals understand that, in their sports-team monkey brain.
  The left has no plan sufficient to deal with this. I hear vague rumblings about strikes and revolutions and the power of the working class united, but the working class isn't united yet. There is no organized, validated plan to effect that revolution. There's no leftist Project 2025. That's a natural consequence of the commendable independence of leftists, but it has the unfortunate consequence of being tactically untenable. The right uniform under the banner of their dictator, the left squabbles about trivialities.
  It's not that I wish it to be so; I would vastly prefer the left to have a functional plan to secure power. But it is the reality; I see neither such a plan, nor the necessary organization to implement such a plan. That's why we vote lesser evil. We strive for the stationary phase of the ratchet to avoid the freewheeling phase, because we don't yet have the organized strength to break the pawl from its housing.
  Once we have that organized strength, and not sooner, we can break the pawl. Sooner, and the ratchet spins freely to the right.
  
  And how's that working out for you?

Primaries exist. Show up and vote for the boring elections too.
- Did you already forget how they literally cheated Bernie Sanders out of the primaries?
  Edit: Or what about that primary they had after Joe Biden stepped down? Oh right
  
  And what were the consequences? They all re-won their primaries.
- oh great i get to choose between the Zionist Veteran Cop and the Zionist Neoliberal from the Chamber of Commerce. How exciting! Such choice!
- Sure, show up and vote in a primary that was already decided by AIPAC money, if not the various other super PACs that have the power to decide elections. Trying to cause radical change through elections, via a party that is structurally designed from the ground up to suffocate radicalism, is like trying to stop the spread of STDs by hoping everyone stops having sex. You need a different approach. Join a union, if you're in the US join the PSL, if you can buy a gun and learn how to use it, and get started on building parallel power structures. You won't elect away climate collapse and fascism, they will be overthrown by force.
  More reasoning on this issue from Lenin
- That would be cool if they let us pick people from our own ranks, and not people whose turn it is because they held Joe Biden's golf bag
- I couldn't vote for Bernie in either primary.
  
  yep apparently iowa and the south gets to decide for everyone who gets to be imperial steward for team blue
- Ok I'll do that if you do the type of political activism I advocate for
- You can do useless things that take up very little time all you'd like. Doesn't bother me.
  But if you want to have political agency you will need to do something real with organizing other people who can take direct action as a bloc.
- You fool. This is social media where the loudest ignorant voice wins. You should agree with the clowns and farm the upvotes like on Reddit.
- Fr. Midterms are so important, but I rarely hear them talked about
  
  I used to have a friend like you after 2016 who was panicked about Trump. They donated $2700, almost 1/3 of their savings as they aren't that well off, to Doug Jones in the Special Elections and other politicians in the Midterms of 2018 who swept in to "push back" against Trump. Doug Jones won the senate seat by like 0.001% of the vote. His money may have actually tipped the scales, or at the very least was maximally influential compared to most American political donations. Best case scenario right?
  Guess what. Doug Jones voted with Trump over 85% of the time, including on all the controversial and close measures and appointments of judges. Doug Jones turned around and stabbed all his supporters in the back and turned against unions. This radlib gave up a third of his hard earned nest-egg because he was so scared about fascist Trump taking over that he was nearly willing to jihad but didn't know where to send that energy to be constructive. So he worked a bunch of OT and then sent it into the closest races during special elections and midterms where people aren't paying as much attention.
  Now he is a communist. He learned his lesson. I hope you will too one day and break free of the spell the Democrats have over poor sad sacks like both of you.
- I do, I just vote null.

I empathize a bit, but it's not like democrats haven't been getting more leftward either.
The truth is though that ultimately, politicians are gonna be malleable to those who are going to vote, both because of the very simple "if I focus here, I will be more likely to get the most votes while providing due change", but also because the idea of democracy is based in the trust that publics will emerge to voice their concerns to the politicians.
Most politicians are just not online enough to gather the discourse that we would be experiencing, and also there's the whole issue of not knowing how much of it is foreign interference in a trench-suit pretending to be the voices of the locals. That's why direct calls to voicing these concerns to local politicians, and being willing to hear them out as much as they hear you out matters a lot. Some do forget over the years, but a lot join politics because they genuinely want to make life better.
- The truth is though that ultimately, politicians are gonna be malleable to those who are going to vote
  No, they are not. A single donation from a billionaire would buy more press to get more voters from name recognition than a million working class supporters. And if the politician betrays his base, the most he can fear is losing reelection, and even this is not assured. If a politician goes against billionaires, he is going to be smeared, harassed and have his opposition funded. This ensures that the only politicians in any significant elections are already guaranteed to serve billionaires.
- The truth is though that ultimately, politicians are gonna be malleable to those who are going to vote
  Literally not the truth; polls showed several times more voters wanted a ceasefire than who didn't and Kamala still decided to go with wholeheartedly supporting the genocide.
  
  My personal recollection is that while she defended Israel as a victim, she still said that she would work to stop what was happening in Gaza and specifically didn't want to provide further arms to Israel
- I empathize a bit, but it's not like democrats haven't been getting more leftward either.
  The furthest left democrat with any sway is Bernie "Israel has a right to defend itself" Sanders.
  Most politicians are just not online enough to gather the discourse that we would be experiencing,
  I think you don't have to be online to understand several incredibly acute contradictions that are mounting at the moment, between the horrible brutality of genocide in Gaza, concentration camps at the border that have been active since the Obama years in addition to CECOT and Guantanamo, the coming climate collapse, erosion of queer rights, and all manner of civil rights. These phenomena signify a movement of the entire capitalist ruling class, who wield empire in their hands, to the most extreme forms of violence. It's a bipartisan affair. They aren't carefully measuring public opinion, Joe Biden deliberately went out and confidently lied about Palestinians beheading Israeli babies while the IDF massacred the children of Gaza. There is no calculation of how to balance public concerns in that action, they only want to control you and brutalize the weakest among the oppressed people of the world, to consolidate power in uncertain times and weather the storm. If the public rejects the carrot, we get the stick and that's Trump. They want you to be a good little peasant and go back to the carrot while they slaughter the people of the oppressed nations and the most marginalized minorities.
  Some do forget over the years, but a lot join politics because they genuinely want to make life better
  She's only one woman, but she's probably the most visible example of this myth. AOC is not a "bartender and community organizer turned political leader" she's a Democratic Party plant who operated an LLC that received mysterious funding and became a prominent political figure out of nowhere. Obama has a similar legendary backstory as a "community organizer" but his family on his dad's side has intelligence ties. I don't think every single local politician is part of some crazy conspiracy, though, but you're engaging in some level of magical thinking if you think the Democratic Party can somehow be run by well-meaning local leaders, in a world where the establishment can create an AOC to capture and redirect public sentiment very easily.
  
  You know what, fair enough, America is a little too cooked on the national level and the national issues that involves (and significantly overcooked internationally), though I never meant to communicate you should just say pwease and twank you democwats if thats what it comes off as as well,
  The AOC thing though, it feels highly selective with its points,
  Ted Kennedy co-wrote NCLB but there isn't really malice you can imply in him, especially when he'd been pushing for UBI since the 60s, it more seems like naïve One Size Fits All ism and thinking that Bush would follow through with funds when he promised to. He was also a rare from-the-start Iraq War opposer, and was also hoping for Obama to be the change many others hoped, even pushing Obama to put universal health care as a top priority.
  The article doesn't really disprove her working-class status, and her work with the non-profits mentioned show a clear interest in working with her local communities to make both their stories known and education better.
  She also didn't come out of nowhere, she came from her mostly-working-class district, seeing that her district was taken by someone who did not reflect their constituents and worked that opportunity in her favor. At that point, everyone comes out of nowhere. Doesn't it make more sense that the left being starved of strong political figures to represent our cause herald the young working-class woman for being loud against injustices?
  She's also a huge part of why Build Back Better, COVID relief, PACT act, actually pushes for a lot of the good things they do, even though she wanted more. It's not like she afks for 2 or 4 years.
  Also, where's the part about mysterious funding? I don't think I caught that in the article
- Oh no, I entirely disagree. The majority of Washington Democrats are right in the corporate center. They aren't working to make life better for the average person. If they were, why didn't they seriously push for universal healthcare, raising the minimum wage, or regulating big banks and other monopolies?
  (I know, you're going to say the Republicans stopped them, but everyone who actually remembers when the Democrats had the majority knows better than that. But even if we're mistaken, like our memories are entirely false, that would only show that the Democrats have the power to stop Trump right now, which they're failing to do... Either excuse only goes to prove the aforementioned claim.)
  
  Bernie and Warren were definitely contributers to making Biden move on minimum wage,
  but everyone who actually remembers when the Democrats had the majority knows better than that
  the democrats did not have the overwhelming majority (60) that can surpass a filibuster, and yeah, the big-tentism hurts to an extent with more conservative democrats, but the states they come from don't have a lot of alternatives in terms of what type of politician is going to get voted.
  Democrats have the power to stop Trump right now, which they’re failing to do
  Trump is engaging in a lot of bypassing that the judicial branch should be taking care of, but the judicial branch is compromised. They could in theory prevent bills that require overwhelming majorities yes.
  They can and should protest it, but a lot of it is on the judicial branch saying no and reversing demands by the executive branch

This is a bit of an oversimplification. Actually, the Democrats deliberately run a weak campaign while Russian botfarms tell the left not to vote for the Democrats. And that's how movement to the left is prevented.
- Fuck it, I'm gonna blame foreigners even more!
  Rupert Murdoch is responsible for most of the fascist propaganda.
  Benjamin Netanyahu has been corrupting the Democrats and helped lose the election for them.
  Elon Musk is destroying the country, in a bad way.
  Adolf Hitler inspired MAGA to be as awful as they are.
  White people should never have invaded Turtle Island, that's the cause of all America's problems today.
- Classic BlueAnon Russiagate conspiracy theory.
  Wall Street Journal: Mueller Doesn’t Find Trump Campaign Conspired With Russia
  Jacobin: Democrats and Mainstream Media Were the Real Kremlin Assets
  Washington Post: Russian trolls on Twitter had little influence on 2016 voters
  Jacobin: It Turns Out Hillary Clinton, Not Russian Bots, Lost the 2016 Election
  Matt Taibbi: Move Over, Jayson Blair: Meet Hamilton 68, the New King of Media Fraud The Twitter Files reveal that one of the most common news sources of the Trump era was a scam, making ordinary American political conversations look like Russian spywork
  Jacobin: Why the Twitter Files Are in Fact a Big Deal On the Left, there’s been a temptation to dismiss the revelations about Twitter’s internal censorship system that have emerged from the so-called Twitter Files project. But that would be a mistake: the news is important and the details are alarming.
  MSNBC Repeats Hamilton 68 Lies 279 Times in 11 Minutes
  Matt Taibbi: WMD, Part II: CIA "Cooked The Intelligence" To Hide That Russia Favored Clinton, Not Trump In 2016
  Chris Hedges: Why Russiagate Won’t Go Away

Stupid seppo propaganda because they don't know what the fuck democracy is. Dumb cunts. Enjoy your fascist dictatorship losers.
The spread of this brain cancer will kill universal healthcare, public education and all the worker entitlements and minimum wages the rest of us enjoy in real liberal democracies. Canada and Australia are voting and we don't need shit takes from our idiot ex-allies right now. Every vote counts here. Save this shit for the next US election if you ever have one.
Have actually seen people post this bullshit in countries with proportional representation with lots of minor parties. It's a fucking stupid oversimplified distortion even in its country of origin.
- It is almost like you didn't understand the meme, can't read, then wrote the absolute dumbest comment in the thread, congratulations moron.
  
  It's fucking childish. Like a spoiled toddler who doesn't get their way so throws a tantrum and lies on the ground screaming.
  The seppos fought a war to preserve slavery. The politics gets dragged to the right because on the whole they are an abhorrent, damaged, immoral society. They have massive incarceration, capital punishment, don't act to prevent mass shootings, let people die of preventable causes, don't have fair wages. They are ignorant about everything including socialism. Their media is fucking awful.
  Yet it is the fault of their center-right political party for following the votes? They are where they need to be to get half the votes and no further. There are some shit people in the US Dems for sure. But its a reflection of a shit society. There aren't millions on the streets demanding a shift to the left and they aren't voting in primaries or trying to reform the political system.
  The thing is if working people consistently voted for the least shit option the parties would drift in the other direction or the right would be entirely wiped out. They don't because they are brain washed and ignorant. Instead what has happened is all the culture wars, politics of hate and fear and weird cultish bullshit that has now made the GOP the party of the uneducated working class who now vote like suckers for billionaire authoritarians against working class interests. The US needs a true Labor Party that is focused on restoring wealth to working families. But until then adults should accept they need to always vote for the least shit option until they can reform their society and have real choices instead of merely damage control.
- "Muh (western) democracy!" cries the lib that would remain unaffected had people not pointed out its effects, for example, on people's day-to-day lives outside the fucking empire.
  "Remain resolute and steadfast in the belief of liberalism. Trust and believe in the system!" as the lib gets side-eyed by everyone else that understands the libs platitudes are directed towards those that stand to benefit from the empire's wrath, like suburbanite libs, or for the case of Europe, the original libs that started the spread of the "cancer" they swear was started by an orange peel, as if to pretend history started not too long ago.