How smart would cows have to become for you to stop eating beef?
Obviously this question is only for people who eat beef regularly.
But I just was wondering, what IQ/ability would make you swear off beef? If they could speak like an 8 y.o, would that be enough to cut off beef? If they got an IQ of 80, would that do it?
I'll go with the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy answer and say the cow likely will offer me in person which cuts of meat I prefer. It's sole purpose in life is to be part of the food cycle. It knows that and it accepts it.
And that's what i say, it I ever meet something higher on the food chain, I will hand myself over and give it a clap.
If they were smart enough to start protesting, I could see myself eating mor chikin.
Yeah, even if the spelling on their protest signs was atrocious, I'd still appreciate the effort and order some nuggets.
I don't know if there's an IQ amount, but there's probably a dollar amount. The more expensive it gets, the less I'll eat, and then eventually I won't bother.
Basically the same here. Pepsi has basically priced themselves out of the market for me.
At the point where it consciously knows that we breed and slaughter them for meat. That would be my red line. I don't know what IQ that equals to.
How do you know livestock cows don't already know this?
I know they don't know this consciously because of their behaviour. If we suppose they were intelligent enough to understand their predicament, I would expect them to protest in some way. For example by breaking out of their captivitity, trying to kill their captors, or even commit suicide.
This is not the behaviour we observe from cows. They seem perfectly happy to bond with and follow along their captors (farmers) right up to the point where they get a bolt through their head.
This - to me - clearly indicates that they are far below an intelligence level where they can understand the living conditions we put them in.
Because they'll just walk into the slaugherhouse unaware like a dumb cow.
No smarter than they are now.
Do you eat beef regularly? If so, then you would stop, and if you've already stopped you were precluded from this question so really shouldn't have answered.
I do currently, but I was vegetarian for over a decade and vegan for part of that. I never buy beef and only eat it because I work in a restaurant and eat for free.
But the intelligence isn't really at issue, the ecological impact is why I don't buy beef. That and the taste: it's a C-grade meat at best, way below pork and most poultry, especially given the higher price point.
I think your should stop eating any meat the moment you don't feel like you have what it takes to look at the animal in the eye while you kill it for consumption.
If you think you can't do that, then you should reconsider your meat consumption.
I'm approaching this point in my life and reducing consumption accordingly.
Cows can be moderately smart when raised as such. It's humans who selected the specific traits we considered more convenient for our needs, and breed them like that.
Would that philosophy extend to other parts of life? I feel like at the surface this sounds great, but when thinking why this sounds great i cant help but wonder if its even possible to look at choices with these kind of angles.
It's a good question. I don't know. There are many reasons why I like meat. And there are many reasons why it's problematic.
I think this is a potentially applicable philosophy. It won't solve the "problems" but at least will make it a more consistent experience for everyone involved (except the animal perhaps)
Well, some people believe that pigs are as smart as toddlers. So a cow would, at a minimum, have to be smarter than a pig.
Have you met a toddler? They're fucking stupid
Well, some people believe that pigs are as smart as toddlers. So a cow would, at a minimum, have to be smarter than a pig.
Kind of an interesting thought process. It seems like the assumption is "I'm doing it, so it has to be fine".
The problem with thinking that way is people have flaws, and if you think like that you'll just take it as a given whatever you're doing is already correct and never fix any personal issues.
The point at which it could collaborate with others and fight back.
Until then, it looks like meat is back on the menu, Boys!
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Intelligence has nothing to do with it. Intelligence isn't even well defined or measurable. Things like IQ are designed for humans, so they would not be applicable to other beings. They're barely even useful for human applications.
It's an interesting question though. First, I'll ask myself why I eat beef in the first place.
Why do I not eat dogs or cats?
I'm pretty sure that a dog/cat could be dumb as a rock and I still wouldn't eat them because I'd still enjoy their company.
Now I do try to reduce the amount of beef I consume, but it's mainly for environmental reasons.
Basically, I wouldn't be able to eat anything that speaks (I haven't and don't intend to, but that's not what would prevent me from eating a "talking" parrot, for instance)
They're already smart enough :) but up close they're a burpy gassy mess, feels like a sentient bioreactor who is really fussy about what delicious grasses their friends found on the other side of the hill.
I raised some pigs a few years ago and I kept waiting for that time when I'd go out to their pen and look into their eyes and swear off meat forever.
It never happened. They were fucking delicious and I'm glad they're dead. Pigs are fleshy bulldozers wrapped around a garbage disposal.
Lol, ok Ron Swanson.
I think it should be mandatory for everyone to spend at least one day of their young adult life hunting, killing, dressing, and cooking. The experience will likely alter the person's entire outlook on life and meat in general.
I never forget that meat was a life that mattered; with a personality; good and bad days; life; experience; struggle it lost to me. It doesn't stop me from eating meat. I wish I had the ability to hunt for what I need. I know my own ethics, like when to take a clean shot, and only taking what I need. Animals in industrial livestock facilities are mostly managed by unethical criminals. None of us asked to be born in such an overpopulated world. Unfortunately, this is the impossible problem. If you are smart enough to see the issue of overpopulation, that is great, but even if you avoid having children, those that are not so bright will always enumerate.
That's the paradox though isn't it?
If smart people were "too smart to reproduce" then we have a whole generation being raised by people who weren't
They'll basically need to become smart enough to sue for their right not to be eaten and win before I stop eating them.
When they're capable of doing a conversation with me.
Cause of death: Social Anxiety
RIP
I guess my cutoff would be actual conversation. Unless they specifically ask to be eaten, ala the bit from Hitchiker's Guide, in which case I guess the sky is the limit.
Smart enough for them to stop being eaten. But at this point they'd have to have similar intelligence to ours, which means we'd probably be at war with them anyway.
I think people forget that nature is quite brutal. If humans stopped eating meat, millions of animals would still be killed by predators, illness, parasites, old age, accidents, etc.
If cows became intelligent enough to participate in society but we had lab grown beef, I'd eat it.
If humans stopped eating meat, millions of animals would still be killed by predators, illness, parasites, old age, accidents, etc.
If I don't murder people, people will still get murdered. Therefore it doesn't make a difference if I choose not to murder people?
If I don’t murder people, people will still get murdered. Therefore it doesn’t make a difference if I choose not to murder people?
No. First of all the tenses are wrong, then the equivalence is wrong.
If people stopped getting murdered, they'd still be killed by illness, parasites, old age, accidents. Basically the loss of life will not stop simply because humans stop taking that life. Are you going to start telling lions not to kill gazelle? Or parasites, viruses, and bacteria not to infest hosts?
Why is it OK for other animals to prey on other living beings, but not humans? You think humans are cruel? Read about what happens in the animal world. Hyenas eating buffalo alive, snakes eating their prey whole (while alive), parasites of course needing live hosts: one eats a fishes tongue and takes its place, another eats a whale's eyes, yet another takes over the motor functions of ants and forces it clamp down on a plant where the ant dies of hungers and the fungus grows from the corps, the parasitic wasp that lays its eggs within tarantulas and the worms eat the tarantula alive, and so many more gruesome ways to die in the animal kingdom.
So you would also eat humans?
Why don't we eat humans?
We're also the only species who raises animals just to eat them later. I'm not a vegetarian, I'm just planning out that you're logic isn't exactly perfect there.
That is false. Monkeys cultivate ants to eat them IINM and ants raise other aphids to do the same.
I once stayed off red meat for 1 year and my health improved tremendously, and then returned to it and my health deteriorated in record time. I'm now back off red meat and feeling better than ever. Maybe at one time red meat was good for you, but the way they raise cattle for profits it would not surprise me they are butchering sick animals as well.
Red meat, and processed meat, and processed red meat, etc. certainly aren't great for you - cancer risk and such. Limiting their consumption makes sense for (long-term) medical reasons, often for economical, ethical and environmental reasons as well. In terms of acute food safety, most "developed" countries will do a good enough job to make sure you don't catch a pathogen from it. Can't assume everyone plays fair, but you also can't really assume they don't.
If you feel ill or have measurable changes to your health just from eating red meat, though... you might want to see a doctor.
I've been off red meat this year; no noticeable changes to health. I've gained a few pounds, but there might be confounding.
But I just was wondering, what IQ/ability would make you swear off beef?
10% of the current IQ would probably be high enough.
How low would my IQ have to be for you to let part of my omnivorous diet be meat ?
Would 80 do it ?
I wouldn't eat a dog, a monkey, an octopus, a dolphin, a whale, a cat, a parrot, a crow, or a donkey. Pretty much everything else is on the table unless I'm missing something.
I don't think it's entirely to do with intelligence. Pigs for example are apparently of similar intelligence to dogs, but I love eating pork. Obviously the dog has the advantage of a unique domestication where they can read and react to our emotions better than virtually all other animals.
So it's an interesting question you ask. Because while intelligence isn't the primary reason it has to certainly be a motivator because all of those I listed are intelligent animals.
To actually answer your question, they would have to be pretty damn smart for me to stop eating them because they are delicious.
Out of curiosity, are they delicious or are their rubs/seasonings/spices/sauces delicious?
A vegan friend of mine once asked me this question and while I can honestly reply that I can find them tasty with just the fat needed to cook it, plenty of people I know require at least a little (but sometimes copious amounts of) plant-based modification.
On the flip side, I only enjoy coffee with lots of cream and sugar. If I didn’t need the caffeine I might give it up completely.
Out of curiosity, are they delicious or are their rubs/seasonings/spices/sauces delicious?
Usually I eat my meat with only salt. Anything else distracts from the taste of the meat.
On the flip side, I only enjoy coffee with lots of cream and sugar
I drink black coffee. I used to drink it with milk and sugar when I was younger. When I was 17 I lived with my uncle for a few months and the guy was a coffee addict. He would drink like 3 or 4 full pots of coffee a day. Naturally, he would offer me coffee a lot and I started drinking a lot of coffee as well. Everytime I would put sugar/milk in my coffee he would call me a pussy. Say I'm being effeminate, couldn't handle coffee, etc. So I started drinking it black lol.
Once you get used to it though, it's better in my opinion. Coffee with sugar tastes gross to me. You can really taste the coffee when it's black. I say try it out sometime. Maybe you'll end up a convert too. Although I don't think anybody is a pussy for not drinking coffee black. My uncle is a bit close minded / old school immigrant.
My dad ate a dog, and he says it's pretty good.
The unique problems for me with dogs is not just that they're evolved to interact better with us, it's that in many places where they eat them it's believed that it tastes better if it was terrified and in pain when killed. So you can imagine how they're treated when getting prepared to slaughter. No easy life or death for food dogs.
Then there's several places in Peru where it's believed cats taste better if drowned.
Not that we treat our livestock great in the west but some cultures take it to a horrifying level due to tradition.
Well I don't eat meat at all, and part of the reason is the video on YouTube of the little girl who snuck her pet cow onto her indoor porch and is holding it in her lap and scratching it while it sighs contentedly.
Cows could launch a spaceship past Warp 1 and I would still want a cheeseburger. I could make do with a well marinated portabello burger at the same price.
They would have to be able to hold a conversation. Octopi are much, much smarter than cows, I will still happily eat them... though I feel a little guilty about that. Cows, though? No guilt.
That said, there is much tastier red meat to be had, if only we diversified our livestock. Kangaroo and Ostrich, in particular. And both of those animals are cold-blooded killers who deserve to be eaten.
My personal limit is recreation, or having fun. So no cows, or pigs, horses or dogs or cats, mostly no mammals really. But also i wouldnt eat like a crow, or octopus.
I've seen some cows that I feel are smarter than some humans I've met.
46,876
Smarter than me
They'd have to be on one level with pigs, basically.
I think eat human flesh will be common in 100 years.
Smart enough to feel pain.
What I eat is already dead. I've never decided to eat something in such a way that it contributed to the harm of any lifeform. So it's not a matter of intelligence, but if it was, it could be as intelligent as a snail and I still wouldn't eat it.
Us deciding to eat meat contributes directly to the harm of cows
Us deciding to heat meat contributes directly to the ham of pigs
Is "directly" the new "literally"? Because it literally contributes indirectly.
Unless it's already dead, at which point there is nothing to harm. Vegetarianism is a spectrum.
I eat meat, but this is a dumb fucking take. The meat industry exists because we eat meat. If people didn't eat meat, then cows wouldn't be slaughtered. Therefore, if we all didn't eat meat, that cow that you ate wouldn't be dead.
The meat industry exists because we eat meat.
But not all meat-eating leads to the perpetuation of the meat industry. Not all exchanges involving meat are fuel for said industry.
The goal of pro-animal ethics is "do no harm", not "do not eat them". There are several workarounds to the former. I'm not pulling these out of my ass, there are century-old industries around these too.