Is this thought about school too radical?
Is this thought about school too radical?
So when I went through school you'd have two types of struggling kids:
Kid A would struggle to pass tests, but work hard and get every assignment done so they can keep their average in check. Teachers like this kid. Not that there's anything wrong with this kid, but teachers project virtue on them sometimes just to shame kid B when kid B asks for consideration.
Kid B is who I assume many people here were and who I was. Kid B struggled to get from start to finish of all of the assignments that kept popping up and per haps couldn't do the same task for very long. Kid B, however, could get high grades on most tests. If Kid B asks for some consideration to pass the class as they've gotten the information but weren't able to finish all of the assignments and are told no, because Kid A exists and "I can stand someone who struggles with the tests but does the work, but I'll never tolerate someone who is lazy".
I have cptsd from years spent as kid B, but I'm pretty sure that's a generic thing that happened to others as well. I had that quote shoved down my throat by a double digit number of adults. And the too-radical thought is this: I believe the teaching approach that holds kid A as a paragon of virtue and kid B as a lazy snot is quite discriminatory and maybe those are just two differently struggling kids. And maybe some consideration should be given to both. And maybe PTSD causing trauma should be withheld from both groups
Most common thing any ADHD kid has ever heard from teacher parent meetings:
"_____ is so smart, they just need to ApPlY tHeMsElVeS"
"He knows the material, he just doesn't do the work."
Oof, I nearly forgot that one...
Yeah I was told the same thing. Eventually I was told I was Useless because I couldn't complete tasks. Not lazy, Useless. I do not know why a 7th grade teacher thought that was ok. I now will never send my kids to a catholic school
I've had a few teachers who were able to identify ways to get me to "apply" myself or to make the work more engaging for me. While it wasn't perfect, I can reflect and identify some teachers where they supported my undiagnosed ADHD well, and others who didn't
I was definitely kid B. Little assignments, I wouldn't remember and big assignments were too intimidating to start until the very last minute.
I remember in 8th grade we got our first really serious big assignment. My teacher specifically looked at me and said: you have 8 weeks to do this, you'll need 8 weeks to do this, this isn't one of these things where you can start a week before it's due and pass.
All i heard was that i can pass wjen i start 2 weeks before.
I started on the friday before, so i still had 3 good days. But saturday, my friend wasn't home from whom i needed the book from to do my assignment, so i still had the whole sunday. I got an A and learned that school is a scamMy stepmother admitted a few years before she died that she was angry at me when I was in high school because I would sit down to write an essay assignment the night before it was due and pound out a single draft in a half hour that was ready to be turned in when she always had had to do multiple drafts.
Oh. You just reminded me of when teachers tried to instill "Good writing practices" on us. There would be a right draft due in one week, first draft due the next, then the second draft, then the revised draft, then the final paper, and then the revised final paper.
I always hated going through that bullshit. Why do I need ten versions when it's just easier to do it right the first time!
If she had only known the anxiety that drove that draft out of you she probably wouldn’t have been mad. Well, if you’re like me at least.
There's a pretty well-supported theory that our education system was designed to churn out good factory workers. Obedient drones who will stand in one place for 8+ hours doing repetitive tasks that require a good memory and high attention to detail but only in the exact way they're told to do something.
I used to complain that the rules of society were made up by "morning people and extroverts" when I was the opposite of both; now I recognize that I'm simply neurodivergent and the neurotypicals are the ones in charge. With therapy and reading posts like yours from other neurodivergent thinkers I've come to accept and appreciate how my brain works. I don't see it as a mental illness (and even the term neurodivergent isn't the best as it implies deviation from what's "normal"). Maybe after society collapses we can build one that recognizes people think in different ways and have different strengths, but until then just remember: you're not a bad person, you're not broken, and you're not alone.
Most of that theory derives from Michel Foucault: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discipline_and_Punish
If you want a genuinely radical take on education, Noam Chomsky says this in Understanding Power:
Well, that's pretty much what the schools are like, I think: they reward discipline and obedience, and they punish independence of mind. If you happen to be a little innovative, or maybe you forgot to come to school one day because you were reading a book or something, that's a tragedy, that's a crime―because you're not supposed to think, you're supposed to obey, and just proceed through the material in whatever way they require.
And in fact, most of the people who make it through the education system and get into the elite universities are able to do it because they've been willing to obey a lot of stupid orders for years and years―that's the way I did it, for example. Like, you're told by some stupid teacher, "Do this," which you know makes no sense whatsoever, but you do it, and if you do it you get to the next rung, and then you obey the next order, and finally you work your way through and they give you your letters: an awful lot of education is like that, from the very beginning. Some people go along with it because they figure, "Okay, I'll do any stupid thing that asshole says because I want to get ahead"; others do it because they've just internalized the values―but after a while, those two things tend to get sort of blurred. But you do it, or else you're out: you ask too many questions and you're going to get in trouble.
Now, there are also people who don't go along-and they're called "behavior problems," or "unmotivated," or things like that. Well, you don't want to be too glib about it―there are children with behavior problems but a lot of them are just independent-minded, or don't like to conform, or just want to go their own way. And they get into trouble right from the very beginning, and are typically weeded out. I mean, I've taught young kids too, and the fact is there are always some who just don't take your word for it. And the very unfortunate tendency is to try to beat them down, because they're a pain in the neck. But what they ought to be is encouraged. Yeah: why take my word for it? Who the heck am I? Figure it out for yourself. That's what real education would be about, in fact.
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/8940492-well-that-s-pretty-much-what-the-schools-are-like-i
That's pretty much America after school too. If you are not a high achiever, your seen as not worth it and "lazy". Also Amerikkkas school system is what I believe to weed out people who don't conform to society, and make kids into better servants for capatilism. Imo of course.
You are describing textbook systemic ableism, and the sad reality is that calling it out and trying to act against it shouldn't be, but is radical in a world where marginalising people for being different is the acceptable norm (for those in power it keeps us from disrupting their systems because we don't fit their moulds and/or they might have to make extra considerations for us, which might cost them a few pennies, so that's a no. And for the rest of the population - it gives them someone to be superior to. After all that's all bigotry is - making one group feel superior to another to rationalise abuse and discrimination, using systems created by those who benefit the most from said abuse and discrimination either directly in stolen labour and resources or indirectly by sowing and maintaining division in the population to stop us from uniting against our oppressors).
I think this is a good starting place to learning about systemic ableism and the models of disability, which will help in understanding and breaking down these barriers and obstacles we face.
Go get yourself tested for ADHD and find a therapist. ADHD and PTSD are frequently concomitant for the reasons you've stated above.
Actually I've got diagnoses of autism, ADHD, and cptsd. Cptsd is the newest diagnosis that explains a lot. But my current therapist seems to be the only person I've met (including previous therapists) who affirms the ND sort of view of the world to the point where theyd likely agree with the post. That also includes friends with ADHD diagnoses who definitely accept my ND talk in regards to autism but seem to be hard rooted in the institutional view of their own (and my) adhd. So I sort of didn't take it for granted that an ADHD community would see eye to eye on this stuff, but I am really glad that ADHD people who see it exist in some number because it seems like proof I might not be just a stubborn hold out jerk who refuses to participate.
I never understand the concept of therapy. I always think of it as a fancy way to say helping so called "neurodivergant" to mold into " neurotypical" person
I'm pretty sure I have some post traumatic stress disorder from school too. No, it's not even that radical what you think. I personally think we need to dismantle schools all together, having kids sit at desks for more than 5 hours a day, 5 days a week for 12 years is straight up a form of psychological and physical abuse.
Okay well they thought that staying home and learning on the internet at their own self-directed pace was also fucking abuse and now nobody knows anything anymore , so what the fuck do we just not educate children?
Lol
i haven't got a diagnosis for ADHD, but for the longest time i've been Kid B. used to fail at copying stuff from the blackboard to my notebook, sometimes having my notebook functionally empty that day, or sometimes not having enough because i didn't write fast enough, and then get beaten up that day upon arriving at home and showing it and then being told by everyone that i don't care enough and that it's all fault of whatever entertainment i have at home (the console i used to play games in, the computer i browsed in, etc.).
got that drilled into my head enough times for me to start believing it myself at some point. delusion only weakening by the time i was living with my father and him not actually caring when i decided to put more effort in people-pleasing by trying to figure out how to write less to make it seem like my notebook has stuff written on it since i never figured out how to write text fast enough like everyone else in my class could.
this never went away though. in my previous job i still got told that multiple times, as well as having that repeated by my mother in the past year because of me not being able to get a job this far.
I was definitely like Kid B. My precalculus teacher once asked me, in front of the whole class, how many assignments I'd have done out of 10. To which I answered honestly with 2, making everyone laugh.
My trigonometry teacher was convinced I was cheating on tests since I barely did any homework, and had me take a test alone in front of her to prove I wasn't. I did well enough that she believed me and stopped questioning it, fortunately.
Also had a teacher scold me one on one in elementary school over not doing homework, making me cry. I'm sure she thought she was helping, but all that accomplished was making me feel bad.
Didn't figure out I had ADHD until my 30s. Hopefully things will keep getting better for kids as knowledge and awareness expand.
I was kid A. Of course, I didn't turn in EVERY assignment but I burned myself out from an early age just to get by. I met my husband in college who kid B, and was always so jealous of his ability to do everything last minute, never study, and get higher grades than me. For reference, I'm a woman and I believe adhd looks a bit different for most of us than it does for men. Being kid A means I was diagnoses but never treated because I was "doing fine". I struggled so much with depression and anxiety in my teens and 20s though.
Am I the only one who was never told off as lazy by my teachers? Even if I neglected to turn in homework regularly, I worked hard on projects and participated in class. I don't think I've ever asked a teacher to just let me pass if I didn't make the grade. I usually calculated out what my grade would be if I missed a certain number of assignments, and figured out what test scores I needed. When I didn't pass, maybe I lacked the gall or the privilege but it has never occured to me to ask a teacher to change something where the criteria was clearly spelled out from the start.
Those little classroom assignments were definitely not all spelled out from the start and that's what I didn't have the capacity to participate in all the time. But say I started off at like 70% capacity. Getting hounded and called lazy and sometimes actually punished during that extra 30% causes my capacity to go down to say 60%. Then I'm being hounded and punished 40% of the time which has an even bigger effect and basically keeps my burnout at 100% and my ability to participate suppressed to 0. The lower my total capacity for participation is the more severe consequences start to be too. Punishments become more likely for sure. This starts to turn into a really wide scope of trauma.
Nah. We had kid A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W Y Z, each struggling in our own way. But individual tutoring is impossible so what was applied instead is the "good enough".
The problem with bulk education is that it accepts a bare minimum and arbitrarily decides everything else are defect products. Yet those 'defect products' that manage to etch out a way forward on their own often end up much better than the bulk carelessly tossed on the production line.
Proper education is a conundrum. But any educator worth their salt will agree on one thing: If a student can't learn, it's the teacher that's failing to teach.
Right? I was Kid C or whatever. Sucked at test taking too.
LAUSD in the late nineties man. Fucking garbage.
I've been - to some degree - Kid A. I accomplished much by the help of doping (with substances) and anxiety of failing.
The price I had to pay came with several burnout depressions. I'm now 34 years and I decided to become Kid B - in favor to my own health.
Well, then you have folks like my brother who was Kid B, but doesn't have ADHD and was just a lazy fuck who didn't see the point of schoolwork. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The average school is going to be built for the average kid to pass. That means more points are going to be in the day-to-day work rather than the big tests. So if your class has 500 points available and only 100 of those are tests, then yeah, you're going to fail when you only get 100/500 points.
However, if you have a kid B, then it's worth looking into if your area has alternate programs from the average curriculum and seeing if they would work for your kid.
I am a firm believer that the phenomenon of "just a lazy fuck" doesn't exist. I don't know your brother, but I know the terms in which you refer to him were used on me pretty much just like that. And the reasons why those things were happening didn't come to light until long after the era in which the terms were used. Even after the first couple diagnoses, my IEP (sheet teachers have that says what they have to accommodate for you) didn't say anything that really related to any of the problems I was actually literally having. The cruel irony is that it said I needed longer on tests, which I never needed and was the only thing I was even successful at. Lazy is just a way to stereotype people who's problems you've given up on.
You know, it's not the "lazy" people that are causing the world's problems.
To add to this point slightly, I also did literally say out loud many times that the school work is dumb and I refused, if that makes me sound more like your brother. That is because at even younger ages, I'd been punished and abused out of using the phrase "I can't" for things they've seen me do at least one time before. Things escalated and got much more harsh when I tried to say it, so I was forced to switch to lies, elitist posturing, emotional manipulation, anything that would end the interaction without "I can't." Eventually I forgot that I can't and started believing a subset of my lies.
Yeah, that was my experience too. I had one teacher in all my years in school who actually gave me consideration, and didn’t count homework, only in class work and tests. That was my third year in her Spanish classes. Instead of a C that year, like the past two years, I got an A. She told me not to tell any of the other kids that she was doing that. She’s my favorite teacher.
Many teachers liked me, but they definitely were frustrated because they thought I was relying on my good tests only, as if I thought that being smart was enough in life. They warned me that hard work was also necessary.
I don't blame them, and it is kind that they were worried about it, but it was not an attitude or belief, it was ADHD! A teacher even detected my memory problems and suggested a to-do list, but she didn't know that even acquiring those habits is hard for us.I wish my teachers knew more about ADHD as all the clues were there. An early diagnosis would have helped me a lot.