1y ago

U.S. Rejects Putin’s Latest Call for Ukraine Negotiations

www.nytimes.com

Archive: [ https://archive.is/z7xcs ]

224 comments

Who gave the US the power to reject negotiation proposals between Ukraine and Russia? I thought Ukraine is an independent and sovereign country defending itself from an invading force. Who's the US to say what Ukraine can and can't meet to discuss?
- Who gave the US the power to reject negotiation proposals between Ukraine and Russia?
  The CIA, when they couped Ukraine's leadership. It's just a puppet state acting in America's interests now.
- Oh, the burger crackers took that power themselves. No one ceded it to them.
  
  Indeed they did, as they always do. I just can't stand burger crackers insisting that Ukraine is a sovereign nation, while at the same time their trusted media and government openly admit that the shots are being called from Washington and not Kiev.
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vassal_state
- Who gave the US the power to reject negotiation proposals between Ukraine and Russia?
  No one, that's what Washington is saying on the article, responding to a plea from Putin for the US to come to the negotiations table.
  The "proposal" made by Putin was addressed to the US. The US said it's not on us, you should talk to Ukraine.
  So I believe right now you are agreeing with Washington and disagreeing with Putin, correct?
My question is why is the US rejecting anything, isn't that a war between Russia and Ukraine?
- That's the reason they're rejecting it. From the article:
  “Barring a Ukrainian demand signal” for peace talks, “there’s unlikely to be a push from Washington,” he said.
  
  Is anybody actually so naive as to believe that Ukraine has any say in this?
Good. Now also please give them the needed financial support
- That's right, fight to the last Ukrainian. It's a great investment.
  
  It is a great investment for NATO. At the cost of spare inventory of 2nd tier weapons (which need to be replaced soon), they can broom fuck Russia from a safe distance..... And Ukraine is begging for this it's only polite to help out.
Why hasn't the cancer killed the mother fucker already?
- It looks like dementia is Biden's bigger concern at the moment.
- Because that was always a propaganda piece, probably.
Why is Putin still trying to negotiate with the empire of lies? The breaking of the Minsk agreements, as well as the fact that the Nazi Arming and Training Organization expanded east despite agreements not to, should have been more than enough proof that the western snakes will always stab you in the back.
The only way this war ends is with the dismantling of the Maidan regime and the demilitarization of Ukraine.
Has Putin actually called for negotiations? An off-hand comment in a Tucker Carlson interview doesn't seem quite like a serious offer.
Also it seems like Ukraine and ukrainians are still pretty much supporting war against Russian aggression: https://news.gallup.com/poll/512258/ukrainians-stand-behind-war-effort-despite-fatigue.aspx
- Putin has been calling for negotiations since he took power 20 years ago. He's been appeasing the West and their insistence on marching the world's first transnational nuclear military to Russia's borders while asking for negotiations the entire time. In 2014 he ordered the invasion of Crimea in response to USA-backed militias violently taking over Ukraine by storming the capital and forcing the president to flee under threat of death and he was still talking about international agreements and negotiations. Negotiations have always been on the table.
There's no negotiation needed. Russia moving out of Ukraine and paying for all damage until everything is pre crimea. If that is all done, rebuild and paid for, then, they can negotiate for less punishment on top. That's the kind of negotiation you start because both sides have something to gain and not one to keep his unjustified war territory.
- I don't know why people keep repeating this given that it's obviously not happening.
  
  They'll be saying the exact same thing next year when the war is still going on.
- Even if there is no punishment on top, if Putin ends up losing all he gained, heads will roll including Putin's. If he can gain any amount of land in a negotiation and end the war, he can go back to his people and say that it was all worth it and many of them will buy it.
  Edit: *many
- ^ this is your brain on western propaganda
- I don’t know which world you live in, Ukraine is in political turmoil rn, while UAF conscripts die en masse.
- This was typed one-handed and cross-posted to the Ask Penthouse column; I can practically hear the lack of lubricant in that dry, crusty beating.
- Dude, the war has been over for over a year, Ukraine lost, they were never going to win, it was just the west trying to use their dead bodies to damage russia.
  
  Russia have lost nearly 400,000 people so far. They've crippled their economy and industry, not to mention scuppered any progress they made since the 90s. Ruined their growth in international standing and currently bending over for China and getting reamed on tech for the war by Iran. They have lost countless flagship military installments and their hold over the black sea.
  In the nearly 10 years since their initial invasion they have captured no more than 20% of Ukraine most of which was captured in 2014s Crimean annexation.
  
  Counterpoint: the burger reich can still make many more dead Ukrainian bodies to attempt to harm Russia.
  
  How much ground has Russia gained in the last year?
  Also, remember when Russia said they'd get to Kyiv in 2 days? It's been a long 2 days.
  
  #BlueAnon report:
  Reporter: [REDACTED]
  Reason: Russky spy, no /s so prolly serious)
The negotiation is get the fuck out of Ukraine you blithering waste of flesh.
- When can we expect the United States out of the dozens of countries they've illegally invaded and neocolonized, then? Can I expect you to sit there and be quiet if another world power decided they wanted to arm and train Mali, Niger, and Burkina Faso to start driving the settler military and its eagerly-tapdancing puppets out of the Motherland the same way you sit on your hands for Ukraine?
  Or is this just about maintaining hegemon over the vassals and encircling, then unlimitedly genociding an entity that hasn't even been Soviet for 40 years?
All part of the attempt to sway the next election. Gives Cucker Tarlson an interview where he (Putin) proceeds to paint all of his actions as a poor humble Russian leader just trying to protect his own people from the big bad Ukranians. Then follows it up with an offer to negotiate peace, which shockingly the evil dictator Biden refuses to do. If only we had someone like the Cheeto Benito who's interested in peace leading the US, everything would be so much better for everyone! Queue troll farm spamming Twitter
- Next time you wanna reverse the flow of your internal plumbing and spew fecal matter all over your keyboard, do it on an account that isn't a two-week-old keyboard smash. Maybe get some more posts in your history. One could see what this one is from orbit.
based US
- Based on what?
- It is just going to have more death with no gain, how is that based?
  
  what kind of monster calls freeing your people from oppression, torture, and murder "no gain"?
  
  Negotiations with terrorists and war criminals famously go swimmingly.
Not a single paragraph about the actual demands of Russia. Which they have stated often enough. Basically they don't want NATO right on their doorstep. This is what this whole war was about. But somehow this is never seriously discussed in western media.
- If this war was about having NATO on their doorstep, why is it an invasion of a non-NATO country twenty years after the first neighbours of Russia joined NATO? It's never seriously discussed because it's either a lie or unfathomably stupid, and whichever of those two it is doesn't much matter.
  Just for a second, imagine you're a neutral country in eastern Europe. Russia has been fucking with Georgia and Moldova since the fall of the Soviet Union, and now it invades Ukraine for the second time within a decade. Russia has never touched a NATO country despite bordering several of them for literally decades. And then Russia acts all shocked when you say you want into NATO
  
  Because Europe never invaded Russia through the border at Belarus. They always invade Russia through Ukraine. First Napoleon, then the Third Reich.
  Russia was appeasing the fascist West as they expanded their multinational nuclear military without democratic accountability into territories populated with leave-behind armies of fascists that they created. Ukraine was the obvious redline because it is the dominant strategic border, as demonstrated by all European and Russian military strategists in history.
  You're confused about history because you don't understand it.
  
  Yeah and Russia protested strongly every time. But Ukraine was their red line. Just because you didn't read it in western media doesn't mean it didn't happen.
  I don't condone the invasion but it was predictable and a colossal "failure" of diplomacy if you look at it charitably. At worst it was a long term plan to force Russia into a conflict with the aid of western media to obscure the reason why this war was happening. Russia is acting just like the US would.
- It is discussed, it doesn't stand up to any reasoning as to why they captured the Crimean peninsula. They also stated that it was because Ukraine couldn't stop the rise of Nazism. So which is it? NATO or Nazis?
  Ukraine is an independent country and if they want to join NATO they can, having a legitimate grievance doesn't excuse an invasion.
  And even if it was true and was accepted, what a disaster it was because it bolstered a floundering NATO, grew membership and increased military spending across the continent. Truly a genius move.
  
  Ukraine is an independent country and if they want to join NATO they can, having a legitimate grievance doesn’t excuse an invasion.
  The context of the thread is that U.S. rejects peace talks. Nothing speaks of Ukraine's sovereignty more than a foreign country rejecting negotiations on its behalf. 🤡
  
  So which is it? NATO or Nazis?
  Hitler's chief of staff was never prosecuted and later became NATO chief of staff. Many such cases.
  Nazism wasn't defeated by the US, it was successfully internationalized by them.
- Then turning Ukraine into Russian territory is a bit counter productive no? That would literally bring NATO to Russias doorstep.
  
  They want a buffer zone. Makes sense in terms of military strategy.
- But NATO already is on their doorstep. Norway, Estonia, Poland etc. Even USA is only a few mils away across the Bering Strait.
  This is not about Ukraine joining NATO, that's a convenience.
  
  That's just such galaxy brain logic there. We've already built up a threat on your doorstep, so you shouldn't worry about us expanding that threat further. 🤡
  Furthermore, Stoltenberg has now publicly admitted that this is in fact about Ukraine joining NATO
  The opposite happened. He wanted us to sign that promise, never to enlarge NATO. He wanted us to remove our military infrastructure in all Allies that have joined NATO since 1997, meaning half of NATO, all the Central and Eastern Europe, we should remove NATO from that part of our Alliance, introducing some kind of B, or second class membership. We rejected that.
  You gotta update your script now.
  
  No one ever invaded Russia through Estonia. The last 2 massive invasions that killed millions of Russians were through the border with Ukraine - Napoleon and The Third Reich. You can't just pretend that every inch of border is equivalent. If you're going to pretend you know history, at least don't expose your clear confirmation bias.
- I think you're missing a paragraph that tells how the border between Russia and NATO increased twofold since (and as the result of) the invasion.
  "Hey it's all about NATO. We always wanted less NATO at our doorsteps, and you can see we tried our best to achieve this. That backfired, yes, but we ask you once again to... Ask all those countries nicely to withdraw from NATO. Having NATO at our borders is not healthy for our people, you see... With all those bio laboratories... And parent№1+parent№2 policy that you force on everyone..."
- While that may or may not be the case this does not permit interference of sovereign state from acting in its own best in own best interest.
  
  Agreed - but it does make it somewhat of an "own goal". The invasion was predictable. Western PR says it was totally surprising but it wasn't.
- .
  
  No, demanding your neighbours all remain weak enough for you to continue bullying is not perfectly reasonable at all
- Because they don't get the option to choose. It's not that difficult. Those countries weren't clamoring to join NATO until Russia invaded, so its their own fault.
- Basically they don’t want NATO right on their doorstep.
  NATO is not the anti-Russia club. They're a defensive pact. Why would you be concerned about your neighbours agreeing to defend each other? Like a neighbourhood watch, perhaps. Maybe you'd be upset if you're planning to do the thing they're defending against. Which is all the more reason for those neighbours to band together.
  
  NATO was founded pretty much explicitly as the anti-USSR club. And it doesn't even matter what it factually is - it's what Russia perceives it as. See their final ultimatum: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Putin's_December_2021_ultimatum
  
  Yugoslavia would levy a disagreement about NATO's status as a "defensive pact"; as would every Nazi who's historically headed that "dEfEnSiVe AlLiAnCe". They're just bodies on tap for the Five-Eyed Empire. As offensive as they're needed, at that.
  
  Unironically believing NATO is a defensive pact.
  
  Wait until you hear what that defensive pact did in Yugoslavia and Libya
- My friend it was never about NATO. There is no prospective out there based in fact where NATO has anything to do with it.
  
  The chief of NATO disagrees with you
  The opposite happened. He wanted us to sign that promise, never to enlarge NATO. He wanted us to remove our military infrastructure in all Allies that have joined NATO since 1997, meaning half of NATO, all the Central and Eastern Europe, we should remove NATO from that part of our Alliance, introducing some kind of B, or second class membership. We rejected that.
  
  The British news outlet The Guardian: "Many predicted Nato expansion would lead to war. Those warnings were ignored."
  https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/28/nato-expansion-war-russia-ukraine
  
  Russia said since 2014 this was about NATO. Even before they protested strongly the NATO expansion. So how can it not be about NATO? You're either completely uninformed or lying.
- Basically they don’t want NATO right on their doorstep.
  Have you looked at a map of Europe lately?
- I don't want people like you in my comments but no one acknowledges that. So weird.
  
  I don’t want people like you in my comments but no one acknowledges that. So weird.
  
  Yog has been here for over 4 years, you joined 30 days ago. You can leave anytime.
- Sounds like the kind of ish a settler terrorist would say
- Their demands are irrelevant while on the soil of a sovereign nation without authorization or sufficient leverage. Both of which are not only lacking but severely so.
- This whole shit storm has been about one thing. Putins legacy as the czar that reformed the USSR. That's it. He wants to lift the iron curtain high once more. It's all dick stroking by a madman.
U.S. and Ukrainian officials say that the best Ukraine’s military can hope for in the coming year, especially without more American aid, is to defend its current positions. Even so, Biden officials say they are not entertaining the idea of pressing Ukraine’s president, Volodymyr Zelensky, to negotiate with Mr. Putin.
This is the most eloquent. If you can't fight a war for win, then it's reasonable to try to gain some better results through negotiations. But the white masters don’t care about the losses of aboriginals.
- Are you implying that white masters exist and implying that a European country can't decide what's better for it without consulting with white masters at the same time? Can I say that you are brainwashed by black masters?
- Sorry... Are Ukrainians the aboriginals in this scenario or are the Russians the aboriginals?
  Because I'm pretty sure they're both descended from Slavs and Vikings.
America will never allow this war to end.
- You know who has total power to end this war? Putin. Just get the fuck out of Ukraine and it’s over.
  There’s really nothing to negotiate.
  
  This suggestion is shit that totally has a chance of happening and isn't just idealistic pie in the sky cope from seething natoids. /s
  
  They literally were negotiating at the start of the war for this exact outcome: Russia pulls out and Ukraine maintains neutrality.
  Johnson threw a wrench in those plans.
- I think that if Russia got the fuck out of Ukraine, we'd happily let the war end.
- or because all putin has to do is stop invading ukraine. he doesn't get to invade and then negotiate to keep part of the place he invaded
  
  That's literally how all negotiations work. Hostage negotiations - you take hostages and then negotiate for benefits in exchange for release. War negotiations - you dominate a space and then negotiate for benefits in exchange for ending violence. Unless you're the USA, where you dominate a region after the majority of forces are already defeated and then when someone tries to negotiate their surrender you nuke 200k civilians.
  
  he doesn’t get to invade and then negotiate to keep part of the place he invaded
  Are you at all familiar with any history at all? How do you think such treaties usually go? Or did you think borders spent the last couple millenia shifting mysteriously without reason?
- Bad take. Why negotiate with an aggressor who is literally invading and trying to absorb a neighbor. You would be rewarding that behavior and Russia gets to stop their unpopular war at the same time.
  
  Smooth brain take. You can't negotiate unless there are stakes on both sides. Why are you people so daft?
- I mean, Putin won't either, the negotiations are just for gaslighting and propaganda. Basically it's about not negotiating with terrorists, America has plenty other wars going on and even without Ukraine intends to increase military spending. They don't need it, but it's not up to them if it ends.
  
  Basically it’s about not negotiating with terrorists, America has plenty other wars going on
  This level of double think is really amazing. Within one sentence, "US has plenty of wars" -> good guys, Putin has one war -> terrorist, literally Hitler.
  I'm not condoning Putin btw. It's just baffling all the excuses that are made for US aggression vs Russian aggression. Can you imagine if China put their weapons into Mexico? They'd be stupid to do that. But that's what Ukraine wants. In the end it's Ukraine, Russia and the tax payer that looses.
- TIL Vladimir Putin is America's puppet.

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