What Matrix/Discord/Teams alternatives are there that FULLY support E2EE across Desktop and Mobile?
What Matrix/Discord/Teams alternatives are there that FULLY support E2EE across Desktop and Mobile?
Crosspost: https://feddit.de/post/8502102
Element for Android doesn't support searching in encrypted channels and I think you can't use E2EE in the browser at all(?), plus basically every other client has even more drawbacks when it comes to E2EE.
My team recently tried RocketChat, but E2EE is obviously an afterthought for that project as it has even more limitations than non-Element Matrix clients (no searching, no pinning, no file upload, no edit, etc.). Plus Jitsi integration seems to be buggy right now (at least on my Windows installation).
What else is out there that's not on my radar? Is Matrix with Element really the best option right now? Is there no project that puts E2EE above all else?
Edit: Should be self-hostable and (FL)OSS.
Correcting some misconceptions...
Element for Android doesn’t support searching in encrypted channels
That's true of regular Element for Android, but it's being replaced with Element X (which is built with Rust). I would expect search to be added there if it isn't already.
and I think you can’t use E2EE in the browser at all(?)
I have done it in Firefox, so that's false. Perhaps you had trouble with a specific browser?
plus basically every other client has even more drawbacks when it comes to E2EE.
Nheko handles E2EE just fine, so that would seem to be false as well.
Since you're looking for recommendations, it would help if you said which clients you tried and what problems you had with them.
In case you haven't seen it, you can set a Features: E2EE filter on this list:
https://matrix.org/ecosystem/clients/Thanks for the great explanation. You said it a lot better than I could.
Imo, matrix is worth using if the bugs dont make it impossible (which they dont for me).
For peeps that absolutely need the perfect finish (which sounds like mixed priorities but maybe its just me) one could use signal.
Peeps who need polished stuff and great privacy should probably pay for it.
I would expect search to be added
That's what I expected fo regular Element for Android as well, but it never came into existence.
Element X
I fail to find a feature comparison between the two. Does it have feature parity with Element yet? If not, what's missing?
Firefox
Firefox is my main browser and has been for the last 15 years or so. It definitely was Firefox, but maybe I'm confusing it with a different issue. There definitely was some feature in Element Web that didn't work and told me to use Desktop instead, unless I'm imagining things now.
Nheko
Interesting, I'll take a look.
EDIT: Nheko is NOT a mobile client. I've misinterpreted your statement.That unfortunately doesn't specify the extend of the E2EE support (like search), but I appreciate your effort.
Does it have feature parity with Element yet?
Not yet. It's in beta.
https://element.io/labs/element-x
EDIT: Nheko is NOT a mobile client.
If you specifically meant mobile, you could have said so. Your statement was, "every other client has even more drawbacks when it comes to E2EE." Nheko disproves that statement. It also suggests that some alternative mobile clients might handle E2EE at least as well as it does. You might want to try them.
By the way, text search with end-to-end encryption happens to be tricky to implement, and Matrix projects aren't funded by corporations with deep pockets. Tempering your expectations regarding development speed is probably worthwhile here.
There definitely was some feature in Element Web that didn't work and told me to use Desktop instead, unless I'm imagining things now.
It's search.
Even in Element, last time I checked, search was incredibly half-baked and mostly useless.
I know you don't want to use Signal, but it actually has searches that function.
Element X works really well but Servers need to additionally run the sliding sync program. They still run normal synapse, but the sliding sync needs to be added. I could not find a list of Servers that have that installed.
I've been using element x with e2ee for years (or at least it feels that long).
Matrix, Signal, Session. If there was anything as mature an feature complete that you're looking for, you'd probably already have heard of it
Things I will take a look at:
- https://jami.net/ (really isn't there yet)
- https://spacebar.chat/ (only has a web client right now, EDIT: Does it even have E2EE right now?)
- https://keybase.io/ (not self-hostable and not tailored for organisational use, EDIT: Maybe it is?)
- https://tryquiet.org/ (still missing some core features like direct messages)
- https://www.rocket.chat/ (E2EE not implemented to a satisfying extend)
Things I will not take a look at:
- https://mattermost.com/ (no E2EE AFAICT)
- https://zulip.com/ (no E2EE AFAICT)
- https://slack.com/ (no E2EE AFAICT)
- https://revolt.chat/ (no E2EE AFAICT)
- https://discord.com/ (lulwut)
Feel free to add more suggestions.
Keybase was popular with some Hacker News users for a while, but now that it's owned by Zoom, anyone concerned about privacy ought to think twice before using it.
XMPP might be worth considering if you're hosting for yourself and all your contacts. I suggest avoiding it for public use, mainly because features are piecemeal and coordinating them across everyone's clients and servers is a bit complicated. (Also, I don't know if there's a good XEP for encrypted search.)
Yeah, it's sad to see it in Zoom's hands, but it is still open source and receiving updates.
What about session? A buddy of mine started using session and so far so good maybe
I've used Session for quite a while. It is not something I would use in a professional environment where reliability is required.
Yeah its overkill.
Also important things in my opinion:
- spaces
- admin rights management, roles
- group invite links
- device management (logging out a lost phone etc.)
I think a slimmed down Element with a selfhosted matrix server and no federation is the best for companies
Does XMPP with OMEMO give you what you are looking for, or am I misunderstanding?
In regards to e2ee probably, but they seem to have very specific feature requirements for a team-chat, which current XMPP clients do not fulfil.
However I do wonder about the fixation on e2ee. In a self-hosted scenario with TLS encryption (and local users only) there is no real need for e2ee.
You'd have to be crazy not to be paranoid these days.
Element.
Uses Matrix
simplex chat maybe?
I don't think SimpleX is the right tool for collaboration efforts. I could be wrong though. The last time I tried it was two years or so ago.
Simplex eats battery 🔋
There are many options to choose from.
SimpleX is supercool and the best for normal anonymous messaging. Not for companies, school, etc.
i always freeze it with sd maid when i'm not using it
IME 40-60% per cycle, even when connecting to an empty, self-hosted relay. Quite literally a killer feature.
What issue did you have with the jitsi integration on rocket.chat?
First of all Jitsi isn't part of the rocketchat-server package, so you need to set it up yourself or use a hoster, which both require separate accounts from the RocketChat ones.
The specific issue I had on Windows was that RocketChat wasn't registered to handle jitsi-meet:// links, it would just open a blank "open with" Windows dialog everytime. In general the "integration" seems lacking, the whole UX is really bad compared to Matrix/Element where voice calls just work.
Jitsi runs XMPP under the hood so why not just use that as your chat server instead of running two separate servers?
Try Deltachat, maybe...
I really like DeltaChat. Highly recommend.
Interesting project, but too simple in its feature set.
Signal messenger
Not really what I am looking for. Neither is it self-hostable, nor do you have access to independent clients. Plus the requirement for phone numbers makes it undesirable.
Also, I'm not really looking for a simple messenger and more for something that is useful in organizing a team.Are you saying you want encrypted text chat? Or do you want voice or video too?
I wouldn't obsess too much about e2ee once there are that many client os's and apps involved, if the server is self hosted. There will be plenty of other points of vulnerability regardless, including careless humans at the endpoints. It's not really possible to achieve security by just choosing the right software. Real opsec is much more complicated.
Molly or Signal-FOSS on Android, flare on Linux.
Flare is incomplete and the others are softforks though.
Signal sucks.
Molly or Signal-FOSS on Android, flare on Linux.
Flare is incomplete and the others are softforks though. Molly not so much, they support multiple phones / tablet. The Desktop client is bad.
What do you mean by "independent clients" - multi device login?
There's Wire, but it still resembles Signal more than Slack. But apparently they've put some work into making it self-hostable.
https://docs.wire.com/versions/install-with-poetry/index.html
Matrix is still probably the closest thing to Slack, Discord etc that actually has functioning E2EE, but also includes cloud synchronization when people can remember their keys.