Biden Warns Israel Not to Occupy Gaza

Stop funding it.

It's this part.
We're telling them they've gone too far, seeing rules... and giving them weapons. Are we giving them seasons so they listen?
And if they don't listen, doesn't this make us complicit and with exceedingly poor intensional optics?
- They know that the worst that will happen is a stern warning. "Don't do that again, but it was justified. But don't do it... OK, just a little bit, but still."
- "We're telling you not to do this thing, and we assure you all we'll ever do about you still doing it is to tell you again not to do it whilst carrying on helping you to do it"
How much Israeli money do you reckon went into the pockets of members of the fascist "freedom" caucus?
Congress would need to initiate it unfortunately

Biden: "For fuck's sake, Israel, don't do something this monumentally stupid."

No points for guessing what comes next.

Is it ethnic cleansing?
Oh boy!
- "Here I go killin' again!"
- That's been happening for decades and just last week they starting displacing 1MM more. So I don't think "next" is the right word.
I don't see why they'd need to occupy anything. Occupation would imply that you wanted to control that area and those people. I think Israel knows occupation would never work and wouldn't try it. They've preferred to wall-off people in enclaves, slowly squeeze all life out of those regions, and when the people they have cornered inevitably violently lash out against their own slow-motion genocide, it's time to flatten the area with bombs again. Israel calls it "mowing the grass" and I don't think a massive occupation fits with that strategy. I think they want to break the region, scatter the people, and leave it to rot, not occupy and be forced to manage it into the future indefinitely.
- Turning it into the world's largest open air prison is occupation.
I have 500 on anyone who evacuated the Northern area is denied re-entry and the maps change to gaslight the world into thinking Gaza was always that small.
Biden needs to be primaried.
The democratic party keeps making the mistake of picking a winner early.
- It's too late. None of the state parties have any of the setup done for a primary. Once an incumbent president (of either party) declares they're running again their party automatically backs them. I just feel lucky we have incumbent primaries for Congress.

Or what?

Edit: FYI I'm not supporting Israel doing this

Or they'll give them even more money and say some angry things about it.
- The USA could end homelessness or hunger (and maybe both) nationally for the amount of money we sent to Israel each year.
"Or else we will be very, very angry with you. And we will write you a letter, telling you how angry we are."
Or the region could destabilize and the US has diplomatic cover to limit their hypothetical response to a more defensive set of operations.

Massacring civilians is fine, but occupying is a bridge too far, I guess.

I definitely get your point here, but a ground invasion would be irreversible. They would never leave Gaza
- Haven't they done it twice before? Something like 2006 and 2014?
- Death is kinda irreversible too
- Agreed. Just needed to point this out

warehouse workers ask Jeff Bezos not to travel by private jet

I mean, the US does have access to the money and weapons faucet Israel relies on.

Israel won't even need to occupy Gaza after they carpet bomb whats left of it into rubble. 😒

Biden "And definitely don't occupy 5 different countrys at the same time. Some of them for over 20 years. Come on man!"

I'm a simple man. I think murder is always bad.
It appears that Israel possibly was aware the attack was going to happen and they allowed it. Regardless, Israel supports Hamas. They need Hamas so they can justify their murder and colonialism. I agree Hamas is bad, but the Zionists have done much more harm. Bibi should not be in office.
- I would need much, much more solid proof for this conspiracy theory before believing it.
  I don't doubt Israel had some unspecified warnings, but I just think it's much more likely that it was a mixture of a misguided belief that Hamas was more interested in political power than large scale terrorism, an assumption that any attack would just be "regular" rocket attacks like we've seen in the last years, incompetence of Israeli intelligence services, and an over confidence that the fence and Iron Dome would be enough to stop any attack.
  Also, Israel doesn't need Hamas. Just look at the West Bank where Hamas isn't in power.
  Agree though that Bibi shouldn't be in power.
Genuine question... how is killing 1800 people protecting oneself against an attack that killed 1200 people? I would agree that Israel has a right to protect itself from terrorist attacks but I fail to see how killing more people protects anyone. If anything, it's just instigating the terrorists to continue to try and kill more people.
This should be the least controversial take of all time.
You think Hamas won't be in power unless majority of people supports it? They celebrated when Hamas murder those citizens.
- You think Hamas won't be in power unless majority of people supports it?
  Trump took power in the US even though the majority didn't support him.
Hamas is palestines means of fighting back at their oppressors. You can't say they are separate entities, because without Hamas, Palestinians would all be dead by now. Its like saying "I support having meat, but not the killing of animals". And why are you pro Israel? They want to do genocide. If the Israeli people are innocent of their countries crimes, they will overthrow the government.
- A bunch of 20 year olds raving in the desert are not "the oppressors."
  You are just stating your opinion.
  The real fascists are netanyahu and his ilk.
- Without Hamas, Palestinians would have their own country lol
  Hamas is literally the only reason they do not. Hamas only exists because Israel was finally close to talking Abbas into a two state solution, which he had previously always denied.
  How do you not know this, at this point?
- If the Israeli people are innocent of their countries crimes, they will overthrow the government.
  It never, ever works that way. Seriously, name one time when a government was overthrown by its own citizens for committing atrocities against foreigners.

Yeah, what will he or the Democrats do when Israel does occupy Gaza?

Continue to provide unequivocal support and money to Israel?

It's not like they'll do anything else like officially recognize Israel has been acting as a apartheid state causing mass human suffering which in turn grew more mass suffering and conflict.

Don't you dare cross this line!
Ok don't cross this line!!
Ok don't cross THIS line!
Ok I'm going inside, if you knock, I'm not coming out.
Obama picked Biden for VP because he was a darling of the Israel lobby, who didn't particularly like Obama. Anyone who's satisfied by this sort of lip service from Biden were just looking for any reason to absolve the administration to serve a partisan political alignment.
I think it would be the ultimate show of force if the U.S. gives aid to Israel, tells Israel to not go any further, and when they do, the U.S. obliterates their military. "We helped you and you still lost." I just wish the innocent wouldn't get killed. The innocent and vulnerable are always the ones who suffer. Fuck war.
- I too love completely irrelevant whataboutisms.
  You think Trump is bad?! Do you think a kindergartener, a sentient corn cob, and a clowder of housecats would do any better?

After decades of turning blind eye towards Israel's crimes, suddenly Murica thinks it's going too far.

“I think it’d be a big mistake,” Mr. Biden told “60 Minutes” on CBS in a conversation taped on Thursday and aired on Sunday night. “Look, what happened in Gaza, in my view, is Hamas and the extreme elements of Hamas don’t represent all the Palestinian people. And I think that it would be a mistake for Israel to occupy Gaza again.” But “taking out the extremists” there, he added, “is a necessary requirement.”

I'm not sure how anyone is taking this as a controversial take. Logistically, practically, and the urgent bloodthirst for revenge make this fucking hard to do. But this seems to me to be a pretty even keeled non polarizing take on a complex situation where there is justification for military action against a terrorist group, and that military action must be measured against the safety and needs of a civilian population.

- Not comparable. Israel is an ally, and needs our funding. Russia has been an advocacy or "enemy of my enemy" type more or less for a hundred years
Because Israel already occupies Gaza and other Palestinian areas.
- Because Israel already occupies Gaza and other Palestinian areas.
  Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, where the hell are you getting your information?

It's ok I told the angry pitbull to not attack the baby I slathered in steak sauce. Anyway, off to golf.

The US is sending mix signals. Biden condemns Hamas, calls them terrorists, and funds the iron dome. Of course Israel thinks they have carte blanche in the region. Surrounded by hostile nations, what other nations in the world acts as aggressive as Israel. They do it because they know they have the full backing of the US. The question is will we live in a world without any Palestinians in the middle east soon - coz that's where we're headed.

Israel misspelled their defense system. Should be called the irony dome.

I agree with you. But I'd like to add this. I live in Israel at the moment, I'm not Israeli but I moved here for my job. I live in a pretty safe area, but we still had rockets coming from Gaza and from up north Hezbolla. They were explicitly targeting civilian areas. But iron Dome and the other system, David something intercepted it. Perspective on life changes when you see a flying missile heading your way only to get intercepted by these systems. The area where I live is full of Arabs, Jews, immigrant from Eastern Europe etc. and had several pro-palastine rallies in the past couple of days, and I stand with them. Also, There have been at least 5 to 6 Hamas strikes every hour since last week, they are targeting everywhere around Israel and iron Dome is on full protection.
I just wanted to add, I don't know what for..
- I imagine your perspective also changes if the missiles were landing and killing people, innocent civilians all around you, your house, hospitals, etc. That's what it's like for the people in Gaza. It also looks pretty suspicious when there's lots of immigrants in Israel and mostly Palestinians in a separate cordoned off area (kinda like an apartheid state).
- Thank you for adding it. It boils down to regular people being hurt, and as an outsider I feel helpless because there doesn't seem to be a good solution, just less bad ones.
- Like there's constantly a few kids ruining everything for the rest of us.
Now that it's been a week since Hamas attacked, there's all these stories coming out about how the IDF didn't even respond to the attack for an hour, and how many friendly fire incidents keep happening, and how incompetent the ground troops are in general. The certainty in their military might is completely gone and now there's no telling what could happen. Western allies have basically given them carte blanch approval for genocide and now some of them aren't so certain.

But he said he was convinced that “the Israelis are going to do everything in their power to avoid the killing of innocent civilians.”

It certainly does more than Hama's ever did. I like how people conveniently forget that not only operating a military HQ bunker under a hospital is a warcrime in and of itself, it also makes it a legitimate war target.
- I wrote this long ass comment for another person but I want to put it here too. Hamas having bunkers in a densely populated area under the city is not a "war crime". The whole thing with Hamas using human shields by setting up camp inside Gaza is BS.
  What I mean to say is that when people say "human shields", they mean when civilians are forced into crossfire to protect the enemy troops. However, there exists the notion of "proximity shielding".
  If you check the Wikipedia page for human shields:
  Authors Neve Gordon and Nicola Perugini, elaborating on their book, Human Shields: A History of People in the Line of Fire, discuss "proximate shields", humans as shields merely due to proximity to belligerents and assert that this type has become "by far the most prominent type of shield in contemporary discourse". They say that the proximate shielding accusation has been used by States to cover-up war crimes against civilian populations and that human rights organizations frequently fail to question this charge which they claim is being improperly used to justify civilian deaths.[7]
  There are several pieces that discuss this idea, but here are some.
  In this analysis piece of proximity shielding, we read:
  Our research suggests that human rights and humanitarian organizations have been complicit with this framing exercise and that it is urgent to have a frank conversation about human shields and the legal and political implications of the human shielding accusation. Both in our book and in several academic articles, we have shown that hi-tech States spend considerable resources on media campaigns and mobilize legal and military expertise to justify their use of lethal violence in cities where civilians are trapped.[ii] We describe how human shields, and particularly the charge of proximate shielding, are being widely used by States and their militaries to justify civilian deaths in asymmetric conflicts, and how it has become a major tool in what we have called the ‘erosion’ of the civilian. **
  If you turn your eyes back to the wiki page I first linked under the section on Israel and Palestine:
  Israel has used the charge, in what has been termed its 'infowar' on social media,[56] to explain the high ratio of civilian vs military casualties in its conflict with Gaza. In Operation Cast Lead 100 Gazans died for every Israeli, and the civilian ratio was 400 Gazans to 1 Israeli. Israeli spokesmen explained the difference by alleging that Hamas used civilians as shields. It has been argued that no evidence has come to light proving these claims.[57][58][59][60] In September 2004, Justice Aharon Barak presiding over the Israeli Supreme Court, issued a demand that the IDF desist from the practice of using Palestinians as human shields, and in October outlawed the procedure.[61] The independent human rights NGOs B'tselem and Amnesty International have stated that ample evidence exists in conflicts after that date that Israel has employed Palestinians as human shields. According to B'tselem, the practice goes back to 1967.[55][61]
  Finally, this article discusses the politics surrounding the idea of human shields
  By these means, entire populations and vast cities are reduced to war space. Prevailing hierarchies of humanity ensure that some places and some people are far more likely to find themselves expendable through the twisted logics and framings of the human shield.
  I hope this makes my point clear but basically: Israel is using proximity shielding (aka accusing Hamas of using civilians as human shields) to justify ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, and has itself had to outlaw the use of Palestinians as human shields because it was a normal part of Israeli military operations and totally allowed until all the human rights groups finally succeeded in outlawing it, and yet Israel still sometimes uses it.
- And yet nobody has ever shown pictures or evidence that they do that. We hear about it constantly, but not one photo to back it up in a world of pocket cameras.
  Hamas are a fucking blight, but I'm tired of the same god damned excuses for Israel's bad behavior. Fuck the IDF. Fuck Hamas. Fuck the whole lot assholes who put innocents in danger.
  Civilians, Israeli or Palestinian, should not be pawns. The one immutable fact is, only one side here has any real power.
- operating a military HQ bunker under a hospital is a warcrime in and of itself, it also makes it a legitimate war target.
  Even if this were true, by International Humanitarian Law it does not make it a legitimate war target. One side committing war crimes is never carte blanche for the opposing side to also commit war crimes.
  An example, just because Russian soldiers raped little kids in Bucha does not magically allow the Ukrainians to bomb hospital or to execute non-combatants. IHL intents explicitly to avoid tit for tat. Remember that the Russians also justify bombing hospitals and civilian residential buildings by accusing Ukrainians of using them as human shields.
- It's funny how the IDF just classifies hospitals, apartments, UN camps, and schools as military targets and you don't ask any questions. Just how many HQs does Hamas have?
- Israeli bombing leveled entire villages in Gaza and the West Bank on the first night after the attack, over 300 children were killed in just that night. They've destroyed numerous apartment blocks, hospitals, schools with airstrikes. They struck a convoy of refugees on a road specifically designated as a safe route for evacuation, killing 70 people in one strike, mostly women and children.
- It certainly does more than Hama’s ever did.
  Normally? Yeah I guess.
  Now? No way. People have been bombed while evacuating to supposed safe locations or along safe routes. Like many times.
- Its crazy to me the amount of support HAMAS is getting by random people on the internet.
  Yes, Isreal has done terrible things, but you have to compare it to what their enemies are doing and would do in their place. HAMAS attacked civilians on purpose, executed babies and elderly. Kidnaped, tortured, and raped. Desicrated bodies, dragging them behind vehicles while cheering. Went door to door executing entire villages.
  If roles were reversed, HAMAS would flatten the gaza strip. They wouldn't give two thoughts about civilians.

Archive link: https://archive.ph/2023.10.16-012318/https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/15/us/politics/biden-israel-gaza.html

OK buddy, where are you located. We just want to occu...ask you some questions.
- Hey, at least America eventually leaves these days.
  I don't think Israel has any plans to unoccuppy Gaza.

Too late?

Sure if you skew the definition of occupy enough, or can't distinguish between Gaza and the West Bank, because all you know is propaganda.
- Go look at a map of the UN borders. Then look at a map of where Israeli troops are
  Now come back here and say that again with a straight face.
- Israel already controls every aspect of life in Gaza. They ration how much food and water they allow in, to keep them near starvation.

wink, wink *

Statements like this need to followed up with "or else!"

No word about the killing of civilians?

The last thing the US wants to bring up in discussion is the killing of civilians, I imagine. We killed hundreds of thousands just in Iraq. (And that's not counting the embargo we had against Saddam that starved a million people and gave rise to Al Qaeda either.)
- I think that is exactly what we want to bring up from the US. We fucked up our response to 9/11. We have some perspective on pushing for restraint for Israel reacting to their 9/11. Even if we avoid moralizing on civilian life, we are least can talk about the cost of perpetual war and occupation.

AfGazastan incoming

So many empty hateful comments here miss the fact that 70 years ago was 70 years ago, and since then a whole new generation of people are living in the region. Israelies who don't feel obligated to have Israel but don't want anti-Semitism abroad, and palestinians who don't mind staying where they were born, inside the 48 borders, but want a decent live inside of it. No leader from any place on earth is working towards them. Israeli leaders want the whole country for themselves, and Palestinian leaders also want the whole land for themselves. Neither is plausible without serious loss of life. So stop being so one-sided and actually acknowledge there are two sides to this conflict, and that all parties are reaponsible. Israel would give anything in the world to have peaceful rulers in Gaza.

Israel would give anything in the world to have peaceful rulers in Gaza.
All the evidence tells us this is not true.
- I was with them until that comment. Israeli people might want that, but the action of the Israeli government has been the opposite. Funny they say 'stop being so one-sided' and say Israel wants peaceful rulers, like Palestinians don't want that also.
So stop being so one-sided and actually acknowledge there are two sides to this conflict, and that all parties are reaponsible.
I find comments like this frustrating.
There may be two sides, but there's only one side with an actual military and nukes and only one side running an apartheid. The only reason people aren't referring to Israel as a terrorist state (which they are) is that they're destroying hospitals with bombs dropped from planes and shooting news reporters with guns held by soldiers in military uniforms.
The other side has no military, has been blockaded for sixteen years, is terrorized and killed at will without recourse, and isn't actually allowed to leave.
What makes Israel the criminal here is the power they wield and how they've chosen to use it.
So sure, yeah, there are two sides, yes, but the two sides are very, very different.
- You could have said the same thing 70 years ago about the leader if mandatory Palestine who was appointed by the British colonizers and collaborated with Nazis, and that a group like Irgun bravely fought against them. The same Irgun that carried out the Deir Yassin massacre.
  What Israel's government is doing is wrong, and they should pay for it. And Israel should pay reparations. But the majority of Israeli's, Palestinians, and American Jews and Muslims just want peace man. This whole thing about who colonized who is silly.
- Oh so because the other side is weak they're supposed to just sit idle when they murder pillage and rape? You're disregarding all the brutal fights Israel has fought against its neighbours as "they're strong so boo hoo". They also have thousands dead. They're also terrorized daily. Just because they're stronger doesn't make them less right. Again, they of course have a responsibility in this situation, but come on. Please tell me of any rocket launchers hidden inside a hospital Israel has. Blaming solely israel for the palestinian miserable lives is half the story. A big part of it is their terrorist leadership who take advantage of their poverty to promote a gruesome war they started (not talking about these days, talking about 48, where all the UN agreed on something and they chose to invade. Since then both sides are fully taking part in this war.).
You have no knowledge of the history and it's painfully obvious.
Hamas exists because Israel killed secular resistance movements and funded Hamas' rise.
- Oh right, it's not like gaza had a democratic elections where Hamas won... (And then ran a coup murdering the opposition). Israel chose the (what seemed then) less of two greater evil. Clearly they were wrong, and they faced the consequences on saturday.
that 70 years ago was 70 years ago,
I don't have a row to hoe in any of this but that alone tells me you're full of shit and apologizing for some evil asshole somewhere in the conflict. The past is always gonna matter whether you want it to or not.
- Clearly you don't understand what I mean, since you're not that knowledgeable in this conflict. Palestinians' leaders final goal is to get the 48 borders back. Nothing less and nothing more. And to that I said that it's been 70 years, and you'll need to grab it by conquest to get it, since the people lived there an entire life, and will never give it up. The leaders from both sides need to understand that any further border change between them will only make things worse, and the ones who started wanting to conquer was Palestinians. Now Israel is doing the same, but after many years, in which they got more right wing and more national, because of course they will when their busses are bombed by terrorists on the other side. I'm not saying Israel is clear of charge, I just say that they started better than Palestinians, then got more national as time went, because obviously - their enemies are murdering rapists. Palestinians are consistent with their desire to destroy Israel, Israelies have been building up to it (talking about each of their leaders, a.k.a the ones who matter).
- An eye for an eye leaves Israel/Palestine a smoldering hole in the ground...
  No, I think I got that wrong. How does it go?
- No, there are two sides.
  One side, Hamas, the Zionist government, and their supporters.
  The other side, the civilians of both cultures who just want their supposed representatives to stop fighting.
Israel would give anything in the world to have peaceful rulers in Gaza.
Delusional.
i understand you are well intentioned but really also simplistic and generic. what you have said can apply to any conflict just changing the names.
the world through the UN resolutions has clearly indicated who is the oppressor and violators of human rights.
it is the state of Israel itself.
- Right now? Yeah, definitely they're violating human rights. But what are they supposed to do given their history? Every Palestinian leadership ever called out for civilians to be "jihad"s (terrorists) and kill as many as possible. I was simplistic because everyone here on lemmy also talks simplisticly. Talk of no nuance and no faults on both sides, mainly say "israel bad", "israel apartheid", "israel should stop existing" - all while forgetting this conflict has two sides. Yes, one side is poorer, but that doesn't make them more just. Both are wrong, but arguably palestinian leadership are the worst here. Being at a huge disadvantage and still choosing to fight a war they'll lose, while in the process keeping their citizens poor. At least Israel evacuated the cities near Gaza, while Hamas blocked people evacuating outside of a warzone.

….or else? Santa’s gonna leave a lump of coal?

Chamberlain agrees. Willing to negotiate.

What does my garage door opener have to do with any of this?
- I believe it's a reference to Nazi appeaser Nevil Chamberlain.

America is Israel's bitch. They won't do anything against Israel

They've been occupying Gaza with their "settlements" for years. What will you do if they continue Mr. President?

The settlements are in the west bank not Gaza.
- They do have "settlers" on the border of Gaza as an encroachment tactic. Technically illegal, but it's assumed they're sanctioned.

"Israel should not occupy the Gaza Strip!"

wink wink

It's almost funny watching people twist themselves into knots over Israel not occupying a territory that morons claim they already occupy, if only people weren't dying because of Hamas terrorists.

Not gonna happen anyway, Gaza was already under occupation once, it was not a happy time to anybody concerned. The goal is the destruction of Hamas. If Fatah wants Gaza after that that's their problem and they can have it.

I think it was possibly Vice that did a documentary on life in Gaza? This was during peacetime and it was fucking awful.

What does he have to gain, politically, by putting Israel on notice in this way? Nothing domestically nor geopolitically. He's just going to be stuck holding the bag pointlessly when they retake that land.

Congress is divided because of the Republican party and the invasion of Gaza is surprisingly unpopular. If this gets dragged out the republicans are gonna have another schism on their hands.
- I'm glad to see that Bibi's not gonna get away with this
Just to be clear I'm not weighing in on what I think should happen. I'm just saying unheeded commands erode authority (and credibility).
I'm not qualified to assert an appropriate outcome in all of this, but I think that state actors who punish and pawn civilians domestically and abroad are hellish and should be removed by their people. Everyone on every side of every border deserves comfort and security.

I don’t think America, the country that arguably occupied Afghanistan, gets to take the high road here.

It's possible for two things to be wrong at the same time.
- Isn’t it more of a “oh man, don’t do what we did. Oh boy, did that suck” kinda thing?
Whataboutism at its finest, folks. "Murika done did it, so they can't take a stance."
- I don’t think Israel would benefit from occupying Gaza, mostly because they have already done that before and know it doesn’t work.
The UN general assembly probably does though and they are condemning both hamas and Israel government
I didn't see the interview, so I'm basing this on just the quotes from the linked article, but Biden stopped very short of criticism and appeared to becoming from a strategic "it's a bad plan, do it differently" perspective rather than a moral high-ground perspective.
Which is consistent with US foreign policy, even if I think it's casually glossing over some atrocities in a way I find truly revolting.