Maybe this is better for everyone

I like and admire vegans.

I probably should be vegan because I am lucky enough to have the economic privilege to support that kind of lifestyle.

But, as with many other communities centered around lifestyle topics, I would never want to participate in a vegan community. Lifestyle communities always become insular and echo-chambery, so you become a pariah if you don't properly adhere to 100% of the community consensus behaviors.

Not just vegans, but you see it happen with fitness communities, diy/home decor, a lot of hobbies, etc.

I'm just keeping an eye out for good recipes.
- I like that approach.
- Let me know if you find any favorites, I am down for anything easy and quick if they're out there (as long as it's not more rice and beans).
so you become a pariah if you don't properly adhere to 100% of the community consensus behaviors.
You don't pocket mulch?!
- I’m a level 5
Just don't interact with communities you dislike. It's a pretty bad excuse to blame other people for your decisions.
Abstaining from animal murder and torture is admirable and something I should do OTOH some internet commenters are mean about it
I wonder why they would be mean...
- Good job! This is the comment that made them turn vegan! Mission accomplished!
- @Stovetop did not say nor implied that he/she is not vegan, because of the community.

Isn't this something that the fediverse was explicitly designed to support?
\ We're making fun of them for making use of one of the foundational features of the platform?

If they don't like it there, they can move again. And again. Or host their own instance.

Idk what this creepy vicarious butthurt is about, or why it has become so popular.

Circle jerking against vegans is a pasttime of the Internet denizens
- Yeah, but it's a pretty pathetic passtime. At least find a good reason, rather than doing literally the thing you want them to do.
  Like, insulting them for leaving is just as bad as them crying that their toxic behavior scares people away. It makes no sense.
- Like a family camping trip, classic fun. Pitch a tent, start a fire, roast some vegans and sing kumbaya
- People do not understand vegans. As cats can be healthy on a plant-based diet with taurine which is supported by science yet people are saying we're animal abusers spreading misinformation lol
- If they choose to migrate to another instance, it will likely be a more extremist instance with poor moderation that has been significantly defederated.
  In theory this is how it should work, but in practice the toxic people tend to move to general purpose more laissez-faire places like .world or .ml, which makes de-federating and cutting off 30% of all users a difficult decision for anyone trying to have a community.
  The answer is less centralization, but that can't be forced. beehaw.org (for example) made the decision to cut off .world and they are better for it. But they are a large-ish instance in their own right.
- One study estimated 1% of cat owners feed their cat a vegan diet. Why do you think that might be? Are they all extremist animal abusers? Or is it possible you had an assumption that turned out to be wrong and now don't know how to reconcile?
- Nah, eating and using animals is the extremist way of doing things.
Sure you can ally yourself with the CCP and that might be totally legal (if they collect any personal data and send it overseas to China then that would be breaking the law but it's unlikely) but that doesn't mean it isn't frowned upon.
- That's a stretch, but even assuming it's true, why do you care enough about their community to frown upon it?
Yes and no. The theory is that each instance is supposed to be more specialized, kind of like the old BBS that used to be rampant on the internet. If you are moving to an instance just because people disagree with you instead to have more discussion over a specific topic that is not really in line with the purpose of the fediverse.
Some people are not mature enough to handle the vegan perspective.
It's just disguised metadrama. They joined the instances this instance doesn't like.
- And so they're moving, and somehow y'all are... Upset about it???? Make it make sense

I mean, leaving .world is a pretty fair response. That community is full of insufferable idiots, but an admin overrode their moderating decisions, and then the admin team made up rules to retroactively justify their decision. That's pretty egregious.

I'm no fan of Lemmy.world but I'm even less of a fan of dead cats.
- Yeah, to be clear, you should not feed your cat a Vegan diet. Cats are obligate carnivores. Synthetic Taurine has made vegan catfood somewhat more viable, but cats don't just need Taurine from prey. They need several vitamins, amino acids, and fatty acids from animal protein to survive. Beyond that, their digestive tract isn't very efficient at digesting plant matter, so even if these foods have the nutritional value they need, they might not be absorbing it. Also, a lot of these products seem to be made from grains and other carb heavy products, and cats need a very low carb, high protein diet. If you want to completely divest from the meat industry, you simply shouldn't own a cat.
  That being said, Vegan catfood products are on the market, so whether or not they are good for cats, they have been approved by several regulating bodies. You can claim that they're unsafe (I certainly do), but having an admin nuke a comment section for claiming otherwise is a huge overreaction. It would be like going into a vape community and banning accounts that claimed vaping is safer than smoking; it probably isn't, but I don't need admins deciding who gets to have discourse about that.
  Finally, I'm also not a fan of dead cats, but if you're dumb enough to take veterinary advice from an internet vegan group, you're probably too dumb to keep a cat alive anyway.
- What if we raise them in a factory farm and eat them instead? Don't worry though. We will force feed them a carnivore diet in their tiny cages
If thats true then everyone should probably start leaving .world. If they cant even behave themselves with something as simple as veganism, then you cant trust them to not powertrip with actually controversial political issues.
- Maybe, but this seems like a problem that's bigger than a single instance. A few months back someone came with some pretty good receipts showing .ml admins going after people for having some very fair and moderate criticisms of China. Seems like most instances either have power tripping mods or are too small to have much activity.
- you cant trust them to not powertrip with actually controversial political issues.
  I mean they "preemptively defederated hexbear as a last resort" for fear they might discuss politics, so that ship has sailed.
- Agreed, except when it's being done to retroactively justify your actions.
  I think it's a very bad idea to feed a cat a Vegan diet, but there are vegan products being sold on the market, and if you want to feed your cat one of these products, you should discuss them with a vet or other qualified professional. Regular dry food contains way more carbohydrates than cats are meant to have in their diet, which can lead to obesity and diabetes in cats. Are people who feed their cats dry food animal abusers? Should the Lemmy admins start policing the use of dry food?
  The mods of c/vegan were trying to assert their ability to moderate their own sub as they saw fit in the face of a massive overreach from the admin. I think they're the most insufferable community I've seen on this instance, but they should have the right to moderate their own community.
  And yes, I'm on .world, but very little of my identity is tired up in my lemmy instance, and I'm certainly not going to bat for the .world admins when they do something crazy.
- You're literally projecting as science proves cats can be healthy on a plant-based diet provided with taurine and b12.

My biggest gripe with vegan communities is that a lot of them have an "All or Nothing" mentality, going fully vegan is a luxury not everyone can afford, and yet I find mainly malice when trying to talk about reducing ones own reliance on meat and other animal products in online communities.

And veganism, if taken to the "no suffering of sentient beings" full extreme, forbids buying things (not just food) produced by slavery. And those things, especially electronics and clothes, are not financially viable for most to be bought without any slavery involved in any step whatsoever.

Unsolicited advice: Your goal is to do no more or less than the best you can. If you're doing that, no one got shit on you.
Which is precisely why they will get along with the tankies so well. Both treat the very idea of nuance as an existential threat to the point where everything much be driven by the most extreme degree of moral panic or nothing at all.
Vegan diets are popular in third world countries because they're considerably cheaper. Meat is cheap in western countries because it's very often subsidized by governments. Meat consumption by wealth proves eating animals is a luxury.
Also veganism mantras always have "as far as is practicable". I bought a Samsung phone because Fairphones don't work here in Australia.
- vegan diets in third world countries are cheaper because they generally just end up being 90% filler starches and still have woefully bad nutrition outside of being calories
Save animals and switch to orphan-meat
A whole foods plant-based diet is 30% cheaper. Eating plants is not as of a much of a privilege as you believe it to be.
- your oxford study doesn't account for anyone who gets free or subsidized meat, or who catches, raises, or hunts their own. so it excludes basically all of the working poor, which is basically everyone.

I see a lot more vegan hate than vegans.

No one hates vegans. Almost everyone hates vegan extremists.
- No one hates vegans, but everyone loves to post vegan hate or idiotic "bacon" posts.
- I wish that was true (and I'm not even vegan) but there are many outspoken anti-vegans. But then again they're the types who will always find an out group to denigrate (in before someone oh-so-cleverly points out I'm doing the same to them).
- Nah, as a vegan most people act pretty hateful towards us even when we don’t bring up the topic.
The community of non-vegans is a lot bigger than that of the vegans. So vegans do something that gets a reaction, you are much more likely to hear that reaction than the original thing.
They're easy to hate - They're weird, eat funny foods, care about things nobody else does (who cares about chickens) and my god is there a subset of them that are the most truly obnoxious human beings (a statement that is, conveniently, true of every single group of humans). They're basically furries for the non-internet crowd. Nobody ever interacts with them to know it, so they get defined by the strawmen people create of them.
Edit: It's possible my explanation of why vegans are disliked has touched a nerve. To clarify; I don't think this, hell I eat vegan meals most of the time, but these are the qualities given to the Strawman Vegan that everyone onlines seems to love to hate. (I also quite like furries.)
- The cause has been tainted by the extremists, to the point where even some vegans are being pushed away from the movement.
  Of course, the ones that are on a niche media platform, in a community dedicated to veganism, are likely to be the nutter ones.
- who cares about chickens
  Most people. Anyone who isn't a psychopath cares to some extent about animals, vegan or non-vegan
- I had a pet chicken in elementary school. She was a sweetheart.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

I had a look at the community yesterday, every post bar one was about vegan cat food for the last week. They're not taking this well at all.

I just had a look myself after your comment and cannot confirm your claim at all. There are, understandably, quite a few posts about this debacle and the future of their sub but more than half is stuff related to veganism not related to cats.
Cats can thrive on vegan diets perfectly well. Mine is still with me since like 4 years and didn’t eat a single animal protein in that time…
It’s called being a responsible human and minimizing suffering.
- Four years isn't that long, cats can live up to twenty years.

Yeah I respect vegans, and applaud them for their life choices. I'm not in a position to, or willing at this point to become a vegan, but I looked at their community... Mostly insults when referring to any meat eater. Yeah, I respect them a fair bit less now.

When you know what occurs in factory farming. Its hard to continue to be nice to others who have the ability to stop supporting the cruel system with their money.
Its often easier to go vegan than people initially believe. You can do it.
- We really dont though. It is simply not realistic to fight for an ethic that requires the overwhelming majority to be hyperrational in their ethics. Human nature tends toward cruelty, and Ive yet to see a vegan have recourse for that.
  Setting aside the whole plants feel pain too bit
- Yes that's how you have a conversation. Good job.
- Dave, in fact, could not behave and could not resist a personal attack.
- Person who pays for animals to be tortured
  no one does that
- And this is why its impossible to have a conversation with yall. Even if you believe this, if you are hostile to outsiders, you just guarantee theyll want to do it more. Cult deprogrammers have to be real nice and mostly just listen for a reason
- Your performative concern for animals is noted.
- Says the person who pays for humans to be tortured they can have a phone.
  See? We can all make disingenuous, insulting statements; but that's not productive in getting people to listen to us.

Lemmy dot world definitely doesn't circlejerk, no siree.

I mean, they're the biggest instance, of course there is going to be circle jerking, but it also has more dissenting voices to push back against people who are just plain wrong.
- Lol

casual drive-by meme;

"We taught a lion to eat Tofu"

I mean what a fucking mountain to die on. Bravo to all involved this has been quite entertaining.

I suspect the mountain to die was the admin actions removing moderators. Vegan cat food is pretty rarely discussed amongst actual vegans. It just happens to appear to be a "wedge issue" that kind of looks like a gotcha if you squint, thus it's beloved by anti-vegan trolls.
- It's the trans women in sports of veganism, it's such a small part of the issue and no one in the group will usually bring it up. But people who are against them will use it to discredit and divide them even though they don't really care about the underlying issues they claim to be for: women's sports, cat nutrition and the way larger problems with them.
"You can't, like, own land, man."
"Well, I can. But that's because I'm not some penniless hippy!"
Do not misrepresent the facts.
It was about a plant based-diet for cats that contains taurine and b12.
- Which is still bad for them. They're carnivores.
- It's a Futurama reference. Like the meme.
  You are taking this too seriously. I would suggest getting off the internet for a bit.

"oh no, the vegans are leaving!" said no-one ever

If that was true there wouldn’t be so many posts and comments about the situation.

ITT: circlejerking.

Did they move to .ml or hexbear?

Both and more
- "[...] well moderated and run."
  LOL!
- Vegans and transsexuals turning to fascists is one of the things that I'll never understand.
Both already had a vegan community and hexbear is vegan by default (carnists need to tag their post if it contains meat, dairy etc.)
- Lots of othering happening by commentators promoting to be vegan, is othering a core principle of veganism?

The part that bothers me is that the most toxic members of the community tend to be boosted. Although I can agree that vegans are right about most things, I would argue that there's lots of things vegans are wrong about, like arguing that cultivated meat is inviable/immoral/etc. Maybe what bothers you most is that you view your own lifestyle as immoral, but not everyone agrees with you, and you shouldn't presume to speak for everyone.
- Speaking from experience, I really resented all the "toxic vegans" I experienced while I was becoming vegan, but looking back I'm quite thankful for them. The reason they seemed so toxic was because they kept highlighting my own moral inconsistencies. This raised cognitive dissonance which felt like a personal attack. It's an unpleasant experience.
  Of course there were also a lot of "good vegans" I'm thankful of as well who would patiently answer any of my questions, and this is the approach I try and take myself (although sometimes I don't succeed, I'm sure).
- The "toxic members" are probably the most outspoken ones just like how the feminists are viewed as extremists.
Speak for yourself

I still don't know what tankies are and Im too afraid to ask.

Tankies are a pejorative term for left-wing, often communist, supporters of authoritarian regimes they see as anti-imperialist or socialis, it now broadly includes defenders of governments like China or North Korea. Critics argue tankies overlook human rights abuses, prioritizing geopolitical stability over true socialist values.

I think we've had enough of the vegan cat food argument on Lemmy.world at this point.

You guys 🥹

Look the beans were great, but our own bender-hookers-and-blow meme. You shouldn’t have ☺️❤️❤️❤️

Isn't it a rule if they stop acting superior they lose their vegan card and superpowers?

Stop c/, it's !

I'm actually rather thankful for this entire drama, or rather my cats are.
I was 'this' close to forgetting some ham for their once in a while treat. Thanks, /c/vegan!

Someone is looking for attention.

what - the only 5 active people in there got tired of getting bullied or something lmao

.world is the biggest circlejerk instance of all.

Wish I knew this a little sooner
- What's keeping you?

As a vegan tankie, I'm more than happy to welcome anyone who is passionate about justice and equality. If you think for yourself rather than just following and upholding arbitrary social norms, you're going to get pushback from the people who believe in those norms. Whether the norms in question are the needless industrialized mass slaughter of animals, or the needless industrialized mass slaughter of the victims of US imperialism. And it's much easier to have meaningful, higher level discussions among people who share certain common values, so you're not having to constantly refute the same shitty low effort talking points over and over.

Please, keep pushing your vegan users our way.

I mean, they are vegans. Their brains withered long ago.

What if your behaviour towards other humans demonstrates a complete lack of any morality?

Who are you to force everyone else to do what your say? That sounds like slavery. Who are you to discriminate against those who eat meat? That sounds like the discrimination suffered by LGBTQ folks.

Who decided that you were morally superior and that anything you do is justified in the name of your moral purity?

Its not really the eating meat part thats the bad bit, its that you have to murder an animal to get the meat. Notice there is no problem with lab meat or plant based meat.
I would hope everyone would aspire to exceed the standard of "does not murder things".
And yes I would argue that someone's morals that allows them to murder anything, is almost always worse than someone's morals that does not allow murdering.
- Its not really the eating meat part thats the bad bit, its that you have to murder an animal to get the meat. Notice there is no problem with lab meat or plant based meat.
  The word you're looking for is, "kill". "Murder" is the killing of one human being by another. Using the word, "murder" ro refer to the killing of an animal is a bad faith attempt to use inappropriate inflammatory language to push your agenda.
  I would hope everyone would aspire to exceed the standard of “does not murder things”.
  Again, it's not murder. It's killing, but it's not murder. If you want to be taken seriously use the correct word.
  And yes I would argue that someone’s morals that allows them to murder anything, is almost always worse than someone’s morals that does not allow murdering.
  You're really fixated on murder but it's the wrong word. It's killing. You will plants when you eat them. You kill bacteria when you wash. Things die. It's part of the cycle of life. Some things die and are consumed by other things.
Lmao, this is unhinged.
- I see the vegan brigade has arrived to try to silence me with impotent Lemmy downvotes. Welcome, everyone!

I am enjoying watching vegans battle everyone. Most people are not prepared for a conversation on veganism. Vegans have been refining these arguments for a decade now and can present clear sharp moral stances with a counter to everything you have to say. They also have the easier side to argue.

Im not a vegan but I'm not talking shit to a vegan for fear of getting dragged into a veganism debate.

Vegans have been refining these arguments for a decade now and can present clear sharp moral stances with a counter to everything you have to say.
this doesn't make them right, and in fact often leads them to use easily debunked but rhetorically impressive arguments. that's called sophistry.
- I disagree. The arguments vegans use are far more morally consistent and thought out than non vegans. Non vegans don't reason themselves into the position and often don't have a good justification for why they're not vegan. When they are pushed they fall apart instantly.
- The rhetorically impressive and easily debunked argument:
  A) Slavery of sentient beings is wrong
  B) Animals are sentient
  ∴ Enslaving animals is wrong
Most people are not ~~prepared for~~ interested in a conversation on veganism.
Vegans have been ~~refining these arguments~~ preaching at people who didn't ask for a decade now
and can present ~~clear sharp moral stances with a counter to everything~~ you as a gleefully evil animal abuser no matter what you have to say.
They also have the easier side to argue.
That part is arguably true. Which is all the more reason for evangelical vegans NOT to have to behave like they're missionaries educating savages every time they manage to trick a non-vegan into engaging with them.
Dietary choices, religions, and dietary choices treated as if they were a religion are like penises: it's fine that you have them and it's super that you enjoy them, but you are not allowed to try to force them on me without my consent.
- I follow a plant based diet and agree with just about everything you wrote. I find that hardcore vegans can act like religious zealots yelling at little nine year old girls on the street for wearing a rainbow colored t-shirt.
- Your freedom ends, where the freedom of others begins. Why would that not include animals?
- It’s meateaters who want to debate me all the time
Yeah. I do agree with vegans in that humans should transition to a diet that's more sustainable and removes the animal suffering from the equation - and I do put in some effort to reduce my use of animal based products but: god damnit some people of that community are some seriously insufferable people to converse with
- Exactly. There are ethical, environmental and health reasons to decrease humanity’s meat consumption. But screaming slurs with religous zealousy burning in your eyes will not win over the majority of the population. If you push people, they push back. Especially on morals, which is the least efficient argument to have a plant based diet - yet it’s the one some vegans like to push the most, as it makes them feel better about themselves.
  I know exactly what vegans know, about eg. dairy industry and the rape of cows. Seen many sickening documentaries, and I believe that in a 100 years we will look back on exploiting/killing animals for dairy/meat as we do now on slavery.
  Still, I eat meat.
  Much less meat than I did years ago, but I have no intention to fully stop, as the alternatives are not yet practical, affordable, or tasty enough for me. If a lot of people decreased their meat consumption, our planet would be much better - how about we take that first step together, instead of insulting each other?
I am enjoying watching vegans battle everyone. Most people are not prepared for a conversation on veganism.
I think it is good that they prefer to not have to argue about the validity of their choices, so stay in their own communities. going to c/vegan and being a shit head should be instance-wide bannable (even if it's temporary). but when they are in other communities they should be respectful of others choices, not sandbag them with sophistry.
- going to c/vegan and being a shit head should be instance-wide bannable (even if it's temporary).
  Are we singling out c/vegan as snowflakes, or are we planning on making being a shithead in communities a banable offence?
No one hates vegans. Almost everyone hates vegan extremists. No one cares what you eat. You want to eat brown slop and claim its the best thing ever fill your boots. You want a vegan pet, get a rabbit. Just don't try to shame everyone else into doing what you want and don't feed a carnivore a vegan diet and no one will say anything.
- There are so many dishes you can make with plants and yet you choose the term “slop”
They also have the easier side to argue.
no, they don't
- Ok what's the moral justification for eating meat?
Even flat-earthers have refined their arguments over the years, which doesn't make them any less stupid. I have zero moral problems with my meat consumption and I'll debate it with anyone.
- Flat earth is not at all comparable to Veganism. Vegans don't need to make up anything to justify their side. They simply care for animals and therefore they don't eat them.
  I'm not vegan so I'm not taking you up on that debate.
- You replied to the wrong person
Vegans have been refining these arguments for a decade now and can present clear sharp moral stances with a counter to everything you have to say
Lol they fuck they can, they couldn't even properly present and defend their own sources.
https://lemm.ee/comment/14432604