Sovcit is sooooo close..
Sovcit is sooooo close..
208 comments
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Secret treasury accounts linked to your berth certificate and by the way we're boats something something maritime law.
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My econ 101 professor once said "what are the things that even the most anti-government people say the government needs to do? Emergency services." Then these dense motherfuckers came along to outdo even that.
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Internet libertarians & off-the-rails conservatives unironically say EMS and Fire Departments should be privatized. Ancaps go one step further and say police and sometimes even military should be private. It makes me lose hope in voters, until I remember that I was 15 before too and most people surely grow out of that phase. But there's a few people who are fully adult-aged who still believe that which is kind of sad for them I guess
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Firefighters were literally private companies before we collectively decided it was a bad idea. Firefighters would just sit and watch a place burn if nobody payed up. Sometimes rival firefighters would even get in brawls over who gets the contract while the house was burning down beside them.
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They tried this with firefighters before way back when, and then realized that fire doesn't seem to care who's subscribed or not lol. Can you imagine? "The fire and EMS lobby" would be powerfully pushing for reduced safety and maybe even starting fires themselves LOL.
Edit while looking up the first thing: Oh my word... mercenary firefighters are a thing for the rich and we're living in clown world.
EDIT: Link went to NYT because it was top result, but screw that lol. Fixed.
I can see it now though...
Privatized emergency services be like:
"Thank you for calling 9-1-1, this is Janeanniesomebody, can I have your 14-digit emergency insurance number, date of birth, and mother's maiden name please. Okay thank you, one moment while I verify that..." (Click)
"Your call is very important to us. Want to skip the line when it matters most? Did you know, for only $49.97 a month, you can get Emergency-Services-Plus+! Whether you want help fast, or to regret being covered for the rest of your life, we have a plan right for YOU!
"Remember, emergency insurance means you can have peace of mind that, when you're in mortal danger, we're only a phone call and 45-minutes-to-1-business-day away! Not signed up yet? Press 1, and we can help!"
((Trendy upbeat hold music))
"Did you know? We're always hiring!"
(Receiver pickup) "Thank you for calling this is Devaidengregjimmothy, dispatch specialist, how can I help you today? Hello?......Hello?...."
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They sure do want us all to live in a world where you have to swipe your credit card to drive anywhere, to go into a store, to walk anywhere, to use a public bathroom, to call 911, to use any services at all.
But I guess it will be worth it, because I'm sure the ancaps and libertarians and sovcits have a really good plan to keep each of us wealthy enough that privatizing the entirety of civilization won't harm anyone.
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It makes me lose hope in voters, until I remember that I was 15 before too and most people surely grow out of that phase.
Wait till you turn 25 and leave your parents' basement
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Has to be a troll. Otherwise, wow.
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What I like to say (in this post-true era): Big if tru
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Wow. I'm absolutely stunned.
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Thiz is probably a normal person trolling sovcits.
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Or is he taking it down from the inside?
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Fun fact: The government doesn't actually need to use taxes to pay for things. The amount of currency in the market isn't fixed, and so the government actually is fully capable of "printing more money" however, this has the potential to cause rapid inflation. So, taxes are a way of reducing inflation, rather than paying for government services.
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That's assuming printing money is the default solution. Taxes have existed for longer than that. The earliest taxes were literally a portion of a farmers harvest. You can't just print more food, or gold, or whatever else. Printing money to fund government was never really an option, so positioning taxes as a solution to inflation just doesn't make sense. It's like saying that instead of eating at a restaurant, you could eat roadkill, which you aren't going to do because of disease, and therefore restaurants are a way of reducing disease rather than providing food.
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That's assuming printing money is the default solution.
I'm not operating with a model of solutions being "default" or not, so no it absolutely does not. What I'm doing is intentionally ignoring the historical context of how these systems developed to observe how they work in the present moment. Doing so allows me to understand the flaws of the model where money is viewed as a resource, rather than a pure social construct that exists in the minds of those who use it. Resources are limited by physical reality, whereas money flows like a clockwork river who's source is infinite and who's sink has infinite capacity. Changing the ammount of money available too much, too quickly, or in particular ways has negative consequences but it is possible. Resources don't do that.
Resteraunts are a way of reducing disease instead of providing food
I'd say they have more to do with entertainment, but they do all of those, yes. It's just a matter of perspective.
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There is a Planet Money (podcast) episode about this. It's a fairly new economic theory, but actual PhD level economists have said this. Government prints money, and to bring down inflation they need to get taxes to reduce the amount of money in circulation, to control inflation. The epidsode was in the 2019 timeframe, I think.
Something that absolutely works in the abstract, but kinda hard to fit into my current model of reality.
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You have to look at it from the perspective of mathematics, like systems control theory and balance / equilibriums. Money flow is comparable to energy flow. Mathematical equivalence principles allows for multiple descriptions of the same phenomenon because every externally visible system behavior can be implemented in many different ways.
So even if that's not how the underlying implementation looks like, you can switch the system to work like that without changing anything about how you interact with it. And that allows you to analyze the system in different ways that might not work in the current system
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It's not really abstract, it's pretty close to how advanced economies already work in practice. Fiat currency is the proxy by which goods and services are valued and exchanged. It is the underlying goods and services themselves which actually have intrinsic value, and printing money doesn't actually change that. Deficits are inflationary and surpluses are deflationary. Growth is deflationary and recessions are inflationary. Governments in these economies will always run deficits because you can't have both growth and a surplus at the same time. At the end of the day macroeconomics isn't balancing a spreadsheet as much as it is about balancing the money supply and economic activity.
This is also why something resembling capitalism is pretty much inevitable in an advanced economy where scarcity is a factor governing economic behavior. If you are using a fiat proxy to mediate economic inputs and outputs, you will end up with market forces. Pretending you can centrally plan around that is naive, which is why harm reduction is the right strategy.
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Except that money is put back into circulation through government spending, especially when they're running the kind of deficits we see in the US.
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Taxation is a big part of the reason why fiat money has any value at all. By demanding to be payed with its own currency, a government can ensure that the bills it issues will always have demand (because people will need it to pay taxes) and therefore will always have value.
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Yes, exactly!
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“printing more money” however, this has the potential to cause rapid inflation.
That only happens if you put all that money into circulation - if you were to, say, just give it away as a handout to the military or Israel... no inflation. Which is... exactly how they give handouts to the military and Israel.
To think... they could just as easily spend that thumb-suck money on healthcare - but that won't murder brown people, so they don't do it.
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That only happens if you put all that money into circulation - if you were to, say, just give it away as a handout to the military
How do you give a handout to the "military" without putting that money into circulation?
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Since the USD is considered the world reserve currency, the government is capable of doing wacky shenanigans like that. Inflation, so long as the American people are insulated from it, could theoretically be used as a way to extract wealth from other nations. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that they're actually already doing exactly that.
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The forefathers were famed for their bake sales.
Ben Franklin used to make a bundt cake that was to die for
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This is self-awarewolf material, right here.
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It’s the government. It can just print more money.
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And that has no influence on the price of goods, which is strictly decided by the buyer and seller. Or so I read today.
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Not even that. All your state's comptroller1 has to do is discharge debts made to the state, by writing "discharged with prejudice" with red pen on the DOT contractor bills. But this only works on pink collection notices, not normal paperwork. State stays out of debt and the roads stay paved.
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And end up like Germany after WW1 where bills were cheaper than firewood?
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Are SovCits against the concept of taxation in general? I thought they just convinced themselves they have loopholes that allow them to avoid it personally...
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Yes they are. They believe it's illegal.
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The ones I've seen posted here seem to want all of the benefits of living in a society without any of the restrictions or responsibilities that go along with it. Taxation is just one part of that.
Some think they shouldn't even have to pay other things, basically believing that there's a part of loans that is voluntary and their esoteric knowledge means they can just get loans and not pay them back, which itself comes from a misunderstanding of how the rich use loans to get to spend their assets and keep them.
That misunderstanding itself is that there's an overall fair system in place, if you have the esoteric knowledge to use it, and you just have to know what magic words to use to make judges agree with you and police back off. They don't realize that the rich following a different set of rules isn't based on fairness under a secret system, it's based on the soft power that comes with being rich and having the resources to make someone's life better or worse with a phone call.
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I'm not sure they'll overstand the question.
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Thats the funny part, they dont.
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The roads they travel on pay for themselves... somehow
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Just sign up for corpo-pass! As you drive through the toll, your Zelle account will be charged automatically. You hereby agree to all fine print as you drive past it.
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they borrow it from China obviously
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It's all private and you need to sign up for services at birth
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Fuxk it, I'm a citizen of the Roman Empire!
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Make the Roman Empire Exist Again!
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By printing more money out of thin air.
sovcit
I have no idea what this is... I'm going to assume, a soviet citizen?
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Sovereign citizen. People who think the law is magic, and also not at all what it is as printed. They think if they string enough legal references together, they don't have to pay taxes, have a magic clone of themselves that accrues debt for them and other equally insane bullshit.
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Thank you!
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Close enough, but no cigar... its Sovereign citizen
The Soviet Union ceased to exist long ago though
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The "sovereign citizen" in Russia seem to believe that they are citizens of the Soviet Union, funnily enough:
A Russian movement of conspiracy theorists, known among other names as the Union of Slavic Forces of Russia (Soyuz slavyanskikh sil Rusi), or more informally as "Soviet Citizens", holds that the Soviet Union still exists de jure and that the current Russian government and legislation are thus illegitimate. One of its beliefs is that the government of the Russian Federation is an offshore company through which the United States illegally controls the country.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen_movement#Russia
Every country seems to have their share of those crackpots. In Germany they think pretty much the same, except it's the Reich (the WW1 one) that's still totally real.
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All the posers here thinking they are very smart, while never asking similar "stupid" questions about their own political ideologies.
In general, smart people ask stupid questions about everything.
As of this specific question, there are various possible answers:
- Crowdfunding;
- Custom fees as a source of income;
- Close to taxes, but paying some fixed fee, like a membership fee.
Variants which are taxes, but relevant for the question in spirit:
- Georgism;
- Only one simple income tax, only one simple property tax, no other taxes;
- Deciding every citizen's payment into budget on a popular vote every N years (may even make it not a sum, but a percentage of property or something), as the average of submitted numbers or something.
Not a sovcit, but they do have a point in saying "fuck you" to the authority.
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Not a sovcit, but they do have a point in saying "fuck you" to the authority.
No they don’t. Fighting “authority” for the sake of it stupid and meaningless because it’s so vague it’s dangerous. You fight the injustice or the lack of transparency, but what you prescribe as “authority” could be anything from schools that educate to laws that protect to support of groups you don’t belong to.
If you said “Authoritarianism”, you’d have a point.
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Hell yeah baby privatise the military😎💵💵 /s
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Wrong post. All things mentioned are about one centralized state.
The reason for them instead of usual taxes is to make it harder to embezzle taxes and reduce motivation to corrupt the state apparatus. You've heard that before, it was the usual republican shit.
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they do have a point in saying “fuck you” to the authority.
The don't say "fuck you" though - they say "gotcha!". The way I understand it, the Sovereign Citizens Movement is a cargo cult. They hear about all the billionaires who barely pay taxes thanks to clever accounting and all the criminals who escape punishment on technicalities, and figure that "if the law can be manipulated - why can't we manipulate it?"
Do they "have a point"? Maybe, in the same way alchemy had a point that lead and gold are made of the same fundamental matter and therefore one can be converted to the other. In the same way humoralist medicine had a point that the human body has various substances that must be balanced to maintain health. They've all had a point in that they've managed to glimpse at the nature of the problem - and they all fail by grossly underestimating the actual complexity of the model and the amount of effort, resources and expertise required to achieve their goals.
I wouldn't be surprised if an expert legal team could achieve some of the things SovCits are trying to achieve. But that would require lots of hard work from them, and SovCits have managed to convince themselves that all it takes is a few magic phrases. I leave it to anthropologists to figure out how they came to think they could so easily figure out what these magic phrases are.
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The way I understand it, the Sovereign Citizens Movement is a cargo cult. They hear about all the billionaires who barely pay taxes thanks to clever accounting and all the criminals who escape punishment on technicalities, and figure that “if the law can be manipulated - why can’t we manipulate it?”
Ah, there is that, yes. There are people who believe that law is some magic where they can prove anything if they know it well enough and know some secrets.
It's not a bad belief, frankly. They want to prove something they consider right, so they believe the law would be on their side if they worked hard enough. Just naive, but not worth ridicule.
In the sense that its connection to justice is not 1-to-1 they are right, but there are no secrets that bend it, just raw real power which a sovereign citizen doesn't possess.
I wouldn’t be surprised if an expert legal team could achieve some of the things SovCits are trying to achieve. But that would require lots of hard work from them, and SovCits have managed to convince themselves that all it takes is a few magic phrases. I leave it to anthropologists to figure out how they came to think they could so easily figure out what these magic phrases are.
Oh, you already said that.
I don't know what you mean by "figure out" (as in what else there is to figure out), but this is indeed a common enough plot point in fairy tales.
I was talking about the emotional part where right and common sense matter more than the law. The law is supported by force, so it's morally acceptable to use force to protect right and common sense against it. Oh, well, speaking of USA, that's in their Constitution anyway, and what's more important, those founding fathers they like to mention have many times said that this is a natural principle and the Constitution doesn't create or support it, just mentions it.
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- Crowdfunding;
- Custom fees as a source of income;
- Close to taxes, but paying some fixed fee, like a membership fee.
these are just taxation with extra steps
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Sovcits believe most of the laws are corrupted or something like this, so these things are better as they are simpler and can even be put into constitutional law or something.
I've never met one, we have "citizens of USSR" where I live.
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- Crowdfunding;
Sounds like someone has never gone on a charity drive and hasn't experienced how limited one could get funding from it.
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One line in a list
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You’re definitely misunderstanding this post. Yeah, there’s value in bucking authority. But you’re also just describing taxes. It sounds like you’ve read up on the modern form of libertarianism. Which is another crock.
The problem isn’t that they’re questioning authority. Generally most people (especially on lemmy) are down with that. We’re talking about the leaps of illogic that sovcits rest their entire belief system on. This post is to highlight the absurd hypocrisy in what they preach. Not to call their disobedience of authority foolish, but their methods and entirely unfounded beliefs.
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You mean that they are imagining a phantom republic so resilient that they can live by its "true" laws while most people violate them day and night, and that these "true" laws make functioning of said republic impossible?
Many people believe in rule of law, yet revolutions and forceful changes are a necessity, states recognize facts made against existing law all the time, every state and system in existence has been erected by illegal violence, and with all that many say that another revolution (in hypothetical scenario, not right now) would somehow be less legal than existing systems. There's a clear contradiction here, the only answer to which is usually that the current situation is in common interest and you can't do that, because "fuck around and find out".
There are such contradictions in free speech, of which everyone here certainly knows - one can use free speech to kill free speech. There are such contradictions in property rights, as everyone ridiculing ancaps certainly knows. There are such contradictions in personal freedom. There was another example but I think I'm writing too much. Got this habit while learning English at school.
But you’re also just describing taxes. It sounds like you’ve read up on the modern form of libertarianism. Which is another crock.
I've read up on many forms of it. Yes, I'm literally listing ways to make taxes acceptable for a libertarian.
TL;DR: Nobody employs pure ideology. If sovcits were to make their own state, they'd have taxes with the reasoning that these are necessary in practice. Same as NEP in Soviet Russia.
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How very libertarian of you. Who’s going to make me pay those “not tax” taxes? Your private military? Well, my private military is bigger so I say NO to your desire for my money.
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This post is not about libertarianism, idiot. Bunch of lefties overloaded me with their bullshit yesterday and now the slow ones come to have a shot, thinking those of yesterday didn't buttfuck themselves publicly with triumphant look.
In general when you are doing such things like they did instead of normal discussion, you are robbing yourself of an ability to make a case for your wrong opinion.
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208 comments
Thats the neat part
Whatdoyoumean?! The govt obviously has so much money as to be able to put millions away for each and every person born! And that money isn’t even being used! Just $3M each, that’s just sitting there waiting for the right magic words to be uttered in a Bank of America in Lubbock, TX to finally be used! Of course money is infinite! They’re the ones printing it!
"Nesara gesara"