1d ago

How many hours of deep work/deep focus a day is doable and sustainable?

I'm constantly feeling guilty about "not doing enough" when it comes to my hobby of learning Chinese. I have been averaging around 3-4hrs every day (I often do 25-minute pomodoro sessions to ensure full focus) for these last 6 months, balancing it with a full-time job, working out and trying to be social. I have no co-dependents and my job is sometimes quite chill which makes this doable. Either way, I still feel guilty of not being able to "obsess" over it every day by studying 8hrs as, apparently, some internet people claim they do. Even while balancing it with other stuff. Or you know, just looking at students studying engineering/law/medical school and also saying they spend 8-10hrs a day studying. Like, I didn't even spend a fraction of this time studying by myself when I went to uni.

In the end, how many hours of deep focus a day is reasonable? Are the people saying they study 8hrs a day just lying? Or is a lot of unproductive time counted into these 8hrs? Like yes, they sit for 8hrs, but every 10 minute they check their phone for 10 minutes and then resume studying?

51 comments

I would say deep thinking work, I average around 3-4 hours, but range between 0-8 hours. Like if I really feel in zone, it's easy to go hard, but if I didn't sleep well, or had too much caffeine, or didn't eat enough, it's just joever. I think months of grinding is possible with the right motivation, but I find that trying to force that motivation is pretty hard; I think that's often more environment-based, rather than solely individual effort (ala being in a class of very motivated individuals)
The important part for me is trying to start every day (or whatever your schedule is), because it can be hard to know how well I'll concentrate until I try for 30 minutes or so. And consistency over a long period of time is key.
edit: oh, fwiw, specifically for Chinese, I have been building this recently... although it's not done yet. https://hanzi.bpev.me/

Dude, don't compare yourself to others and just enjoy learning a new language at a pace that works for you. The goal isn't to learn Chinese the fastest, it's to learn Chinese well enough that it sticks.
- 🙏 Absolutely

just learn at your own pace and don't burn yourself out. if you're enjoying what you do, you're good to go. if you have an off day where you're just not feeling it, then take a day off from it.

There is no general answer to that. Some people can't focus on a job from 12 to midday, others can stay hyperfocused in the zone until they drop or someone gets them out of it. As a student, I did a highly concentrated programming job from Thursday to Saturday in one go with only short breaks for food and bathroom, and three hours of sleep in total.

Do I get to use my manic superpower?
If I have to slow down to sleep and eat and stuff like normal people, well then I guess 3 hours of max focus.
If I'm manic ... I AM focus.

About 4 hours but not in one go. Everyone is different but I can't imagine 8 hours straight at anything.

You don't get points for hobbying the hardest. IMO, you might benefit from focusing on enjoying a hobby and stop making it about efficiency.
"Feeling guilty" about not being the best at a hobby is a bit of a "please consider therapy" flag.
- I study Korean for funsies. I don't speak kt well but I am very ammusing to Koreans. At the end I had to choose whether this was going to be a new thing to punish myself over... I said 꺼져.
- Haha my "guilt" isn't that overwhelming but it's in the back of mind. It doesn't really affect my studying or my day-to-day. I still enjoy the studying. But in terms of language acquisition, I do get rewarded by getting better at a language in a shorter amount of time. Which would be awesome. Even though I realize it's a marathon, not a sprint.
- You don’t get points for hobbying the hardest
  Yes you do. In this case, he would have better Chinese.
  
  Point missed.
  He/she's dead, Jim.

If you feel guilty about a hobby, it's not a hobby
It has become a chore.
- Hmm I don't see it as a chore or something I detest tbh. I just try to be disciplined and want to make somewhat fair progress in a good amount of time.

3 to 4 hours of focus on anything, every single day is so unthinkable to me I can't even.
Even when I take my ADHD meds I don't get those kind of numbers! Jesus. Maybe don't feel like your existence needs to be justified by constant, sustained effort that can be measured? Sounds really stressful.
- I don't have ADHD and it still sounds insane to me!
- Yeah definitely fair enough, I get you. I don't really care about stressing or putting in the hours for a boss or someone else's sake, but when it comes to my own personal interests and what I'm doing for myself, I think I tend to pressure myself a bit more.

3–4 hours of focus time, and another 3–4 hours of passive time where the brain gets to work on its own. Usually this is what a full time job is, so don't expect to do more after that. (Mundane purely "mechanical" jobs add a bit of variables, let's disregard those for now. Work is work and it takes its toll)
Those who say they're active for 8 hours consistently don't know how to measure time, or they're super rare outliers, or outright liars. It's just not sustainable.

I've read that humans can only sustain maximum focus about an hour. I used to think "I can focus for longer than that!", but I think a more correct interpretation is that "after more than an hour, you start to see diminishing returns on your effort."
Upon more careful reflection, that sounds about right. I do engineering work that involves deep focus and complex mental manipulation, and I can say that you really can't do that for more than 1-2 hours at a time without a break. Try to force it longer than that, and you won't be able to go back for a second round of that in the same day.
The reason why students seem to be able to do it is because of the staggered classes and the variation in complexity for their course load and, you guessed it, taking short breaks in their sessions. Common advice for engineering students is to pair their engineering courses with lower-stress liberal arts courses or courses that use different parts of the brain in a given semester so they don't burn out, and to rest between classes and study sessions.
And lastly, as an ADHD adult, I'll offer this insight on the nature of motivation: everyone's threshold for how much motivation they need to perform a task with sustained focus is different. Sometimes, you just don't have it in you, because you've used the energy on other things. Willpower is not some magical force that you can limitlessly tap into to achieve the impossible; it is very much a finite resource. So if you're struggling to bring yourself to do more towards a specific goal, consider where you can shave off some energy elsewhere. Or, perhaps after thinking about it, you realize you are already putting in exactly the amount of energy you are willing to. In that case, there's no need to feel guilty, because you're already doing what you can and want to.
- Willpower is not some magical force that you can limitlessly tap
  I'm sorry. This is not true. Now, I'll admit, I'm not all that well balanced. That sorta comes with having limitless willpower. And it doesn't solve most things, really it's just a different set of problems. But this perspective you share, its the perspective of a NORP. Outside that sandbox, there are crazies that have all the juice it takes for anything at all. Nice to meet ya.
  you’re already doing what you can and want to
  Well put. This is the true path.
  
  it's the perspective of a NORP
  Huh, do ADHD people count as NORPs? Or is that more of a mindset thing?
  My naivete aside, it's true that the way I phrased my statement ignores people with ADHD who can experience hyper focus on an activity they're interested in, or people experiencing mania. I've certainly experienced the former, but like you said, it's not a solution but more of a trade-off with its own set of problems.
  I guess I should have phrased it more like "even if you have limitless willpower, it doesn't break physics": even if you aren't neurotypical and can sustain willpower for unusual amounts of time, no matter how much motivation you have there is a limited learning capacity you have and a finite amount of time in a day, and you have to pick what you spend them on.
  It's a bit tricky to convey that nuance succinctly, so thanks for pointing that out stranger. :)

I’m lucky to get 4 hrs a day of focus time. I know that for others it can be a lot more. However, ADHD hyperfocus is a thing and may be what these Internet people are referring to
The people who say they work 60+hr weeks for long periods of time are inefficient and are lying to themselves.

Outside of work I can probably deep focus for 1 to 2 hours per day. Working a full-time job and taking care of a home is simply too exhausting for me to focus longer than that.
I do want to caution that hobbies and passions shouldn't make you feel rundown. It's great to have a goal, but make sure you're taking care of yourself and having fun along the way.

Those internet people are lying. It's the Internet, after all.
It's better for you to try to be a whole person, who has some social time and gets some exercise and maybe cleans up their living space once in awhile.

I can happily deep focus almost indefinitely, including putting off eating but only if I'm really interested in doing something. I can also doggedly persevere with something I feel like I ought to do but become progressively more depressed doing it. I'm starting to think I may have something like ADHD but need to look into it a bit more.
My advice to you is to listen to yourself. If you're reaching a limit of how much time you want to spend on something take a break from it. You'll get more done that way and your learning will probably be more effective. Or it may even be worth reassessing whether you really want to do it at all. It's fine (and very important IMHO) to refine & update your goals to ones that suit you better. You might be tempted to beat yourself up about being a 'quitter' but it will be better.
Sail forth and find your dopamine :)

When I was an engineering student, we spent more time on solving problems than just reading the books. The process of solving the problems helped learn the concepts. Didn't feel like deep focus learning from that perspective.

As long as you are actually trying everyday, I wouldn't feel bad about the amount of time spent. If you only feel comfortable doing 25 minutes, you may retain that information better than doing longer but cramming it.
Especially in a language like Chinese where everything is extremely context sensitive like 是 and 时. (Have been doing 30 minutes a day of mandarin for a year and made a ton of progress. Right where you are just keep at it)
- Absolutely, I try to avoid having any "zero-day". There are days where I study a lot less, but it's never zero. At least I'll do my Anki cards. 加油 to you too!
  
  Can I ask what resources you are using? I'm mainly using HelloChinese courses and Pleco for stuff in the wild I find. Looking to branch out. 谢谢

I would say 4 hours and you can choose to use it at work or for your hobby, depending on what is more important.

2-4 hours. For teaching you have about 15 mins to reach your students, for reference. Apply this to any presentation you give lol. Anyone that says they're doing that much, take with a tablespoon of salt.

Depends. I have ADHD. Unmedicated a "reasonable" amount of time could be 20 minutes or 10 hours. Medicated it could range from 2-8 hours depending on my engagement and motivation to stay on task.
Aggregate these data as you will.

When learning languages there comes a point where immersion is much more useful than concentrated learning.
While traveling to or living in China for a while might not be an option, are there activities or things you can do in Chinese with native speakers which is not just about learning a language.
It'll be more fun and require less focus.
Or get a Chinese friend / boyfriend / girlfriend! 😀
- I've already studied Chinese full-time in a Chinese environment actually, and I'm preparing to do so soon again (which is one of the reasons why I'm extra locked in atm, just so I'm fully prepared). But yeah I try to mix it up with language exchanges and so forth where I am atm anyway :)

Every person is different and every day is different.
Don't try to push yourself beyond your limits.
Also, some people can do an hour straight through, while others need a break after 30 minutes.
The main thing I'd say is figure out what is best for you and ignore anyone else.

Actual focus, where I am 100% on the problem with all my remaining grey matter? 3-4h. That doesn't mean I am doing nothing the other time - I'm talking to people, thinking about stuff, setting stuff up and so on. But if I do more than 3, 4 h, quality suffers, I suffer, and my sleep schedule suffers.

Maximum 20 minutes

Do you work/study full-time as well as this?
- Work full-time. But I do have a lot of downtime at work.
  
  So you spend like 11 hours a day being focused?

4 hours of focused work is generally the maximum, in my opinion. I usually add 4 more hours of low-intensity work on top, to keep up with all the administrative stuff etc.
This is highly dependent on sleeping well and eating healthily, though, and on taking at least one day off per week, if not two.
I’m of the opinion that working hard is foolish, I’m focused on working well. Some days I can do 5 hours, some days I can do 5 minutes. That’s okay, no work is always better than bad work.

4-10 hours for me. If I'm working in good fun code and pop 1 Ritalin and 12 hours fly by of which 10 were very productive but usually most days aren't that engaging and some can be a slog. That's why task organization is really the hero in productivity.

51 comments