5mo ago

Are people here pro-conscription?

A recent event led me to fact check something that I thought must be untrue, which is that Ukraine conscripts people into the military against their will, including making those people that had previously fulfilled their obligations return to the battlefield.

Moreso, when browsing X recently I saw bunch of videos being posted of what claimed were police forcing people into vans to go fight in Ukraine. The police were beating these people in the process. Now, it is possible that some of this content is propaganda, but I did want to find out if Ukraine forces conscription.

It appears that it is true:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Ukraine

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/lacking-manpower-ukraine-resorts-to-harsh-means-to-force-draft-dodgers-into-combat

I am very much against conscription. I still support Ukraine's independence, but the fact that they are forcing people to fight through beatings, arrests, etc. is sickening to me and makes me lose respect for Zelensky. According to an estimate by Ukrainian commanders, 50% to 70% of Ukrainian conscripts are killed or wounded in their first few days in combat on some areas of the front.

What are others thoughts on this?

73 comments

So you equally oppose the brutal conscription efforts of Ukraine's invader and occupier, Russia? Since you didn't mention it?
- This is the correct response to OP's transparently bad-faith question.
  
  Yeah, I'm not a fan of conscription. I've seen Ukrainian loved ones reckon with the difficulty of the need for a self-defense force while the rest of the world sits on its hands. I'm happy to discuss it, as long as it's an honest discussion about conscription and not purely Ukrainian conscription?
- I am very much against conscription.
  I still support Ukraine’s independence
  I think Putin is fascist dictator. I literally said I am very much against conscription & I still support Ukraine's independence, but yet here you are ignoring it like an unprogrammed NPC that can't imagine being critical of an action by Ukraine without someone being a Putin apologist. Let me be clear again since me claiming to be against conscription wasn't enough for you. I am against conscription in Ukraine, Russia, Israel, South Korea & anywhere that does it. It almost always leads to more fascism & not less.
- Are you looking for reasons to not answer the question?
- Why are you trying to make this about russia when its not relevant for the question? Just because there is someone worse doesnt excuse the lesser evil. And it certainly should not stop us from viewing them objectively/critically.
  \ When someone beats their kid you wouldnt say "but they got raped by their parents thats much worse".
  \ Btw Im not saying Ukraine is to blame here, I havent done research into this particular topic, just saying we shouldnt dismiss info just because theres an aggressor doing worse shit.
I think in a war for survival you do what has to be done.
- Survival for who? Cuz those conscripts mostly die.
  
  Mostly die? Maybe a quarter of Ukranian troops have become casualties. Deaths are maybe 1/4th of the casualties
- By forcing your citizens to die for profit?
  These endless wars will continue, since money has to be made, and corporations and oligarchs have a lot of sway when it comes to foreign policy.
  The next war my country's oligarchs and corporations are pushing for is with Iran and China; the duopoly is owned and funded by these corporations and oligarchs.
- So if Trump forces people to go to war by having police jail & beat them, you'll support it?
  
  We’re being invaded by a country that’s much more well-resourced than us? Then yes.
  But I dont believe we are…
I am pro defensive conscription in the case of foreign invasion. I believe that thus far, Zelensky's administration has had to tread a fine line between preserving democratic ideals and surrendering the country to a foreign invader, but they've done the best they possibly could given the circumstances.
The fact of the matter is that in an invasion, everyone is on the front line, whether they want to be or not. Defensive conscription enables the best organized defense against the foreign invader, and provides a structure and resources for ordinary citizens to fight back. Uncoordinated underground efforts against invading forces rarely succeed, but properly trained citizens, with the full support of the country's military and defensive resources, do.
Being forced to die for a country I didn't choose to be born in isn't right and should never be the norm.
- While I agree to some extent, I think it is not that simple. By being born as citizen of a country, you automatically gain lots of benefits like protection from violence or healthcare, but also get responsibilities, like following the law. In extreme cases, your country could depend on its citizens protecting it. You could argue that you didnt sign up for either of those, but thats just how humanity evolved and if we abolish these "contracts", thats anarchy.
  \ In this case, if all citizens were given the choice not to fight for Ukraine, it could very well be that it would be under Russian control by now, costing millions of people their home. Not saying that is definitely the case though, I dont know enough about the details.
  
  I understand and even agree with some parts of your point here, but:
  By being born as citizen of a country, you automatically gain lots of benefits like protection from violence or healthcare.
  Yeah, being a US citizen gets you neither of those things in reality unless you're rich & powerful. I guarantee the people they'd be kidnapping here in the US & sending to war aren't the rich kids.
Very much against conscription. If the country is worth dying for, people will volunteer. Otherwise, it is cruel and unfair to force people to suffer for a country they didn't choose to be born in.
To clarify for the commenters who seem to think anti conscription = pro Russia, no, Russia is an authoritarian dictatorship, and conscription is unethical in all countries. Democratic countries should model the moral behaviour.
- If the country is worth dying for, people will volunteer.
  While I agree that conscription is generally not good and shouldnt be necessary, this statement is definitely not true. Humans usually care for their lives and the responsibility for their families first.
  \ Imagine a situation in which you live in a perfect utopia of a country, but every year, one citizen has to be sacrificed. Would you volunteer immediately? Probably not. Given the choice not to die, most people would take it. Would you agree to 1 person out of X million being picked randomly and accepting it if youre chosen? I think thats more likely. It seems fair and your chances of being chosen are very small because of the number of people involved.
  
  That doesn't sound like a utopia, it sounds like a The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas situation.
In a defensive war against an equal or more powerful enemy, everyone is needed to do the part the military organisation needs them to. For many it's their civilian job, for the rest it's whatever's needed, including the front lines (after training, well-equipped and well-led). War's ugly.
I'd be highly sceptical of any beatings occurring. Common sense suggests that an unwilling soldier you got to the front that way would likely bring more harm to the morale of their fellow troopmates, than benefit through their own efforts.
I'm pro national service - whether that takes the form of mail delivery, community work, fire service, environmental remediation (!!) there's a shitton of work to be done, give kids free education and get them enrolled for services and benefits and skim off the best for leadership. Or, military or federal security service. There's a ton of different ways for people to serve their country and we should accommodate all who are willing to step up.
- You know, I can fuck with this to an extent.
  I think folks should always have the right to refuse, but I think some sort of national service obligation in exchange for education assistance could be beneficial.
  In the US, there is currently a federal loan program for college students, where the government fronts some or all of the cost to attend college and you pay it back later. The government also has debt forgiveness programs if you later go to work for a non-profit or public office and make consistent repayments for a number of years, but that is unreliable, requires a set number of conditions to be met, and usually takes a long time.
  The US military has programs where they will pay for all of your college education if you enlist, but not everyone is comfortable going into the military and that comes with its own obvious risks.
  In lieu of the loan system, if there was a similar program for agreeing to work as a public servant for X number of years in exchange for free school, it could be appealing. It would be a decent resume builder for participants to have a stable job and income during their period of service after they finish school while they have time to look for a long-term career once their service is finished, and they wouldn't have to stress about trying to land a forgiveness-qualifying job that they need to stay at for 10 years or more while also never missing a payment on their interest-accruing loan.
  
  I think folks should always have the right to refuse,
  mos def. the trick is to make it fun and part of the transition to adulthood, so they want to serve.
  In lieu of the loan system, if there was a similar program for agreeing to work as a public servant for X number of years in exchange for free school, it could be appealing.
  in addition to schooling, give them access to home loans too. make it possible for people to own houses again.
  crazy dreams right?
For a post that sparks good answers that I'm happy to see, I'm sad to see the post itself have so many down votes.
- Anything that can be seen as anti Ukraine is going to generate a lot of down votes in liberal/right wing instances.
  Including very real ethical questions that just use Ukraine as an example.
Yes, that's why we have conscription. So in the event of an invasion we can compel citizens to serve 2-3 years of military service.
We could also do it the American way and make sure half the population is poor and that you need money for healthcare and university education. It's a bit like how you could get Roman citizenship if you served. I like conscription better.
It is highly unpopular here to criticize Ukraine, and people kinda have good reasons for it, with all the far-right/trolls/tankies praising Russia and undermining Ukraine support.
Still, and though I support Ukrainians in a war made by Russia, conscription (it's always forced btw) is something I can't get over with, it goes against liberty, equality, solidarity, everything i believe in. Fuck armies, anywhere, anywhen, anyhow. It does not mean that they should be unfunded/unsupported/fought against, just that we have to remember that they are bad to the core, and that even when necessary, they should not get any glory, any power or any reward.
"Despise the infamous glory of laurel-bearing heroes, all assassins and pirates who terrorized the whole world". - La Paysanne, Gaston Couté
Anyway, i hope for peace in Ukraine, that they will get their previous frontiers, and that violences will soon come to an end, so that forced soldiers on both sides and Ukrainian civilians can escape this hell.
Ultimately, any country that is not willing to conscript their population when necessary to do so for defense, will soon cease to be a country. It is an evil, but a necessary evil. Place the blame where it belongs, on the aggressors.
I think that conscription is fine where there's a military need for it.
I wouldn't say "it's the right decision" across the board, though.
Kind of like asking "What are your feelings on amphibious assaults? Good or bad?"
I mean, they're a tool. There's a time and place for them.
I don't think that conscription has some sort of intrinsic social benefits, which some people seem to. Nor do I think that it is morally-objectionable, which some others seem to.
Yup, pro Ukrainian AND Russian conscription. I'll be pro-Canadian conscription once the US tries to annex us.
I'm pro, but to a very limited extent and with a lot of caveats.
Peacetime conscription is an important tool for smaller nations in that it gives a population a basic military skillset. A professional army will then have a larger recruitment pool that already knows WTF fire&maneuver teams are.
It is also my firm belief that serving a year for something greater oneself is an important life lesson. Not in the sense of indoctrination, but most 20 year olds really should serve a purpose outside of their own life and goals.
As for wartime conscription, that's an entirely different thing. A conscript should never be sent abroad. And I'm undecided whether it's OK to use them in defensive wars (A common argument is that if a nation is worth fighting for, they will volunteer. I can't take a stance on that, as I don't have any relevant experience).
And it should be possible to refuse military service. So, for example, instead of serving in the army for a year, you're assigned to civil defense that can help out during disaster relief.
Source: My thoughts and opinions, mostly. I served one year as a conscript, learning the basics. I was offered a contract to join the standing army as I was interested at that point in my life, but I turned it down for a competing offer. I later joined our country's equivalent of the national guard for a couple of years, before I left due to it clashing with my job a lot.
I don’t think the vast majority of people are pro conscription. Some see it as necessary, but I wouldn't call that pro. That said, if other countries provided professional soldiers instead of just money, maybe conscription wouldn't be needed.
Wait, are you against conscription or specifically conscription in Ukraine? I was drawn in by your post title because I think it's actually an interesting discussion about the implications of a fully volunteer military vs conscription and the societal implications. If you just want to complain about Ukraine having conscription while their survival is on the line....I don't know what to tell you.
Maybe condemn Russia for their brutal invasion, support giving Ukraine everything they need to win including foreign boots on the ground (which Russia has already done) and the war can be ended as quickly as possible with minimal amount of conscription. Your narrow lens on Ukraine here makes it hard to assume your wanting to discuss the issue in good faith.
- I am very much against conscription.
  I still support Ukraine’s independence
  And another comment of mine since that wasn't enough for you people:
  https://lemmy.world/comment/15397527
  
  Are you in favour of an independent Ukraine if they must use conscription to maintain that independence? I think that's the key issue and why that statement seemed somewhat empty to me.
at least its more equal than having people "volunteer" for service, even if the rich can still avoid it but its not like laws hold meaning to them anyway.
I am against conscripts.
We must always be highly critical of those with power, money, and influence; especially governments and politicians (and the oligarchs that control/sway them).
I have known about those videos being posted on twitter.
I shared some of them last year, it is great that people are escaping the echo cambers we created for ourselves!

73 comments