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Yep. They lie about themselves and they're opponents. Just like their opponents do in an opposing direction. They lie to make the opponents look worse and themselves look better.
Just like you've done here.
Exaggeration of "enemy" faults while downplaying your own.
It's hardly an exaggeration of enemy faults when the enemies self-identify as fascists or are a bunch of transphobes who can't even handle the existence of pronoun tags. And yes, transphobes and fascists are my enemies, these people literally want to kill me or want to deny my right to exist as myself in public and live a dignified life. I won't have that here, or anywhere we can extend our influence. As somebody else said, go to the bottom of the page and check our modlog. We're open and transparent about our moderation policy, everybody can see which mod actions were taken and why. For context, we normally have a person like that show up every other day at most, now we have to purge bigots all the time. Maybe your standards are too low to get this, maybe you think "nonbinary people don't exist" or "stop using pronouns" isn't hate speech, but it is. These are reactionary talking points and idgaf if you're fine with such people infiltrating your instance, we will keep our community safe from harm as we've done before when such issues came up. Being an inclusive, safer space takes active work and it includes stepping on people's toes and kicking people out who can't behave.
Nope, I'm with you on all that. That's also not what the comic is highlighting. Trans people exist and deserve all the rights everyone else has. Transphobes are pieces of shit and should be dealt with accordingly.
"I think Western institutions and media are not being entirely honest about their geopolitical opinions" is not like the phrasing I see from hexbear users out in the wild.
"I think Western institutions and media are not being entirely honest about their geopolitical opinions" is not like the phrasing I see from hexbear users out in the wild.
What you see is the logical conclusion of when you step back and realize that people are always supporting this year's war drive and claiming last year's war drive is ancient history and all in the past.
You say that like a whole lot of us didn't have that realization decades ago.
No experience is universal and your logical conclusion won't be the same for everyone.
Even if it were by throwing something aggressive in the face of someone who isn't even on the same road you're just going to come off as an ass. You drive others deeper into their position rather than getting anywhere productive. Which you may not care about on the surface, but then I'd argue you're just pushing a different war drive.
You drive others deeper into their position
You say that like they haven't held that position through multiple farcical wars.
I'm not the one driving them deeper into their position. They have chosen to do so themselves. Which is why they are more concerned about my civility than the millions starved and killed in the name of the rules based international order.
🥰
they are more concerned about my civility than the millions starved and killed in the name of the rules based international order.
You say that like your know their level of concern or activity in regards to those.
Consider someone starting to consider view points beyond how they were raised. Are they more or less likely to go toward someone with inflammatory rhetoric? The concept of a pipeline is hardly a new one.
Believe it or not the world isn't divisible into two camps. Why would you not encourage people to flow towards a direction that should be inviting?
Consider someone starting to consider view points beyond how they were raised.
unironically, the bullying takes work. many of the people on this website are here because they got pressured for bad takes, got shocked and confused, and stuck around to learn more. others went wow those commies are funny and ended up doing the reading. civility only protects the status quo. we live in a fucked up world and pretending it's not by masking how fucked up it is that people defend that status quo serves absolutely no one but the powerful. any tool that breaks people away from that reflexive defensive posture towards extant power is only an immeasurable good.
So if it breaks one person away but twenty more say they knew they were right about all them and refuse to ever attempt to engage in discussion again, that's good?
Yeah, it's fucked. We have people insisting that trans people are grooming kids while preachers keep getting arrested for actually doing far more than the trans folks are even accused of. But if you throw a whole lot of the country into the deep end of the pool they'll just drown while they take all the lifeguards down with them. But if you can let them dip their toes in the shallow end then you may find them swimming laps before you realize.
queer people started getting rights and acceptance after they started throwing bricks, not before. rights are taken, never granted. the genocidal policies will succeed in their project if they are not met forcefully. as a trans person, you can fuck all the way off - I will not be polite and civil with people who think my right to exist is open to debate. to accept the premise and engage in debate denies my own humanity. I exist, the people I love exist, and we will fight to the grave anyone who denies it. and I abso-fucking-lutely do not give a shit about the feelings of debatelords.
There's a huge gap between people who think your right to exist is open to debate and a random person on the internet who doesn't know what the position of the instance is.
I pointed out that the overly polite statement in the comic is not reflective of reality and plenty of you are doing a great job of demonstrating that.
You say that like your know their level of concern or activity in regards to those.
it's self evident, given the issues they raise
Being able to tell the concerns of a person based off limited interactions over the Internet is a skill the world has never observed.
Being willing to assume you know such things, however, is incredibly common
person posts about the civility of people complaining about NATO led mass murders
you can't just conclude they care more about civility than NATO's warmongering
thats a very lemmy.midwest thing to say
Are you saying you are not aware of "concern trolling"?
is not like the phrasing I see from hexbear users out in the wild.
What's the phrasing, show an example or two, don't just assert back your shit up bro
Its so funny how you guys became so used to being able to live in an echo chamber of western capitalist propaganda on reddit, then moved here, then had that bubble popped by us and lemmygrad, then became INCREDIBLY DESPERATE to get away from opinions you previously were sheltered from. Its just a funny reaction to witness.
Probably not the most extreme example but it was relatively easy to find
uh, am I supposed to see an issue with that statement?
Dougee we've gotten transphobes, pedos, racists and incels coming into our instance, if that's the worst you got from us, consider yourself lucky
So because some people are so much worse it's ok to be crappy? That doesn't really jive with me. We should all always be trying to be better than we have been before.
So because some people are so much worse it's ok to be crappy
Yeah. People reciprocate affection and vitriol, and being civil towards bigots is not a virtue. It's just a point of exploitation for bad faith posters to exacerbate divisions and legitimize their bigotries.
Also, it's the internet. Log off. I set my feed to local to avoid the other lemmy instances. Do that on midwest.social please.
That doesn't really jive with me. We should all always be trying to be better than we have been before.
The vulgarity and dismissiveness come forth in Hexbear after an established pattern from a user, native or visiting, of bad faith arguments, bigotry, and apologia for anticommunist institutions, policies, and states. People who come from other instances, that act in the aforementioned manner, aren't starting from the position of blind and unwilful ignorance curious of the world, political theory, or political economy and willing to know, discuss, and consider alternative perspectives.
Those bad faith posters, when discussing politics, work backwards from their conclusions. They engineer reasons for their prejudices and are unable and unwilling to overcome cognitive dissonance, reject all counterarguments as propaganda and just refer people as bots/paid shills/stooges or other dehumanizing flags to label dissidents.
If you're not a concern troll, agree to disagree, and go away. Ask your instance to defederate if its unbearable for you.
Those "crappy" people prove the point the op you quoted was making, people in other instances ARE hyper sensitive to critiques of western capitalism, that's just an easily observable fact, and it's not rude or out of order to point it out
People in this instance including me are more than willing to engage in good faith with those curious about our politics, but there will be no toleration of bigotry or blind faith in a vicious ideology that is cooking the earth
If we're defedrated because of those principles, so be it
is aesthetically different or semantically different? because that's pretty much what I see. people get aggro about it sometimes but the semantic content of what they're saying is still what's in the image.
aesthetics can still matter. If I say I disagree with you or I say I think you're a stupid piece of trash there are people who would consider that to be aesthetically different but they convey a different message that will be received different.
tone policing sucks ass. I will not be polite and civil with people who callously disregard human lives. civility is the false peace, a white, middle class sensibility that I refuse to adopt. civility masks the underlying tensions that mark our fucked up world, pretending everything is hunky dory. fuck that. bring the tensions into the light. it's only then that we stand any chance of resolving them. I'm not afraid of conflict. bring it on.
This one is going to find a massive increase in use since federation
objectivity is a myth and everyone is shaped by their material background
As we say on the show over and over again the atomic unit of propaganda is not lies, it's emphasis.
Citations Needed Ep 113: Hollywood and Anti-Muslim Racism (Part I) — Action and Adventure Schlock
Check the modlog, Doug, there is no exaggeration.
Don't need to. Saw how your users here descended upon my home instance the other day. You're hardly without blame around here
Both sides. Concern troll. Civility. Blah blah blah. Post examples or fuck off.
Me: You guys acted more aggressive in my instance than this comic portrays
You: Both sides. Concern troll....
Posted an example elsewhere. Someone being a far bigger piece of shit doesn't mean you are incapable of being kinda crappy yourself. We're very far from anything resembling a both sides thing here
The one example you posted elsewhere (that I can find in your posts, you still won't like or make it clear for others) is this comment which is a bit ranty and online for my personal tastes, but I don't have any problem with the content of.
More importantly though, cherry picking the most (ironically) all caps reply you got here is not the same as providing evidence of Hexbear users "acting much more aggressively in my instance". So you still haven't provided anything to back up the claim you've made all over this thread. So yeah, plenty of people here will rightly doubt your sincerity.
I didn't link anything specifically for two reasons. For one, I didn't feel obligated to go sifting through a post I didn't especially enjoy the first time. For two, it was an effort to meet the same energy as "check the modlog".
Was I right in either of those, maybe not. I'll own that.
On the other hand if you don't have any notable issues with that comment I have my doubts you'd be more critical of anything I've seen on my instance.
But at the end of the day we're all different people with different insights and opinions. Am I wrong about how a comment reads to me and you're right? Is it the other way around? Neither. We're both right about how it reads to us. But that's not likely to change how you view my sincerity.
I've made my point with a good faith addendum on the slightest off-chance I'm wrong about your intentions, so I refer you to that, and with that I'm disengaging.
Fuck do you mean, Doug, are you denying all the apologia, fascism, colonialism, racism, sexism, ablism, and homophobia that occurred? And I wasn't there but I sure hope they gave the liberals of your instance hell for their imperialist views.
They came in with broad sweeping statements and assumptions paired with judgements and wishes of harm based in nothing but their own minds from what I could see.
There was also no shortage of an amplification of the message in this comic, all Western media is lying about everything all the time kinda thing. In the interest of full disclosure that's very likely an exaggeration itself, but I'd wager closer to the truth than what's here.
I'm not denying any of that happened any more than you're denying what went down on my home instance. I wasn't there
broad sweeping statements and assumptions paired with judgements and wishes of harm based in nothing but their own minds from what I could see.
unless source for the latter half of that statement, thats gaslighting, Dougall Western media is lying about everything all the time kinda thing
Do you think that a white-supremacist imperialist nation would be honest about an enemy that it is currently at war with?
Well done dropping the part where I explained that's likely an exaggeration. The source is out in the open. You're as free to look on my home instance as I am to look at your modlog.
I think they'd be as honest as their enemy is about them. Why would I assume that it's only one side lying about the other?
Beyond that the best lies are rooted in truth. Honesty happens with enough frequency to make the lies credible.
Then there's also the openness to influence I keep with people all over the world. Looking at varying points of view is so often the path to truth.
You're as free to look on my home instance as I am to look at your modlog.
Yeah nah i've seen how the imperialist bigoted fuckers from your instance behaved on here so I am safe to assume that they acted as such on home turf. They fully deserved any hate they got.
I think they'd be as honest as their enemy is about them. Why would I assume that it's only one side lying about the other?
So you deny that the combined western powers headed by america are a uniquely evil white-supremacist entity that has brought terror and misery to the people of our world?
uniquely evil
Specifically here.
So you'll freely judge my whole instance based on your experience on your own, but I should not do the same in kind?
Yeah you're free to judge us as rude or whatever for being hateful to imperialist reactionaries, that just makes you an apologist for the latter.
Specifically here.
Which countries that currently exist have legacies that are as evil, barbaric, white supremacist, genocidal, and settler-colonial as america and its allies?
inb4 "WHAT ABOUT MUH CHINA!!! MUH RUSSIA!!!!"
Neither was founded in the genocide of an entire nation's worth of indigenous peoples, sorry.
that just makes you an apologist for the latter.
So calling someone an ass is only ok if they were being an ass to a decent person? How far do I need to dig into someone's post history before I can call someone being an ass to them an ass?
Which countries that currently exist have legacies that are as evil
(I cut the rest off as it wasn't in the original dispute)
England comes to mind. Japan has had some historic shit I'm aware of. I can't say whether China has or not because I've not dug into their history. Thanks for making decisions for me though I guess.
Neither was founded in the genocide of an entire nation's worth of indigenous peoples, sorry.
For one, we don't really know how China was founded, do we? As for Russia we'd really need to get down into Mongols and Kievan Rus and plenty of other things to make that determination.
That aside, is something founded in evil only capable of evil and something founded in good only of good? Can China and Russia do bad? Are they capable of as much evil as America?
Not all western media is lying. There are a few okay podcasts, the Intercept, the Guardian is okay sometimes. Uhh... I can't think of any others off the top of my head right now. Pretty much all Western government organizations and individuals related to foreign policy are shit, I'm afraid. Like a couple of Irish politicians and a smattering of minority party people across the EU are the only real exception.
All media is lying to you a large part of the time. Yet it's only Western media you seem interested in calling out on it.
On the other end most media is telling you part of the truth or telling the truth part of the time.
They called it popular politics when I was in school
Bruv Western Media is the only media I can read. I'm American. We're ignorant as shit. If it's not in English I can't do anything with it.
Then learn another language. Change and grow.
But if Western media is lying and it's all you can read then how do you know it's lying?
because there's alternative analyses available. see the news megathread
Idk, I saw a few comments on that post that were bad but most of it from what I saw were decently calm disagreements, at least calm in comparison to being called state actors as OP did in the post
It must be so cool not needing to ever actually examine a situation before knowing immediately what's going on and what the motivations of people are. Just super easy and gratifying, huh?
I wouldn't know
So do not speak
Is that take really, "if you don't know everything don't say anything"?
"No investigation, no right to speak" is an extremely easy bar to clear and a very easy thing to learn when you're entering any space you're not familiar with or held by a cultural or other group you are not a member of.
Don't talk over people if you don't know what you're talking about. You obviously don't have to know everything. If you don't know you listen before you talk.