China using families as 'hostages' to quash dissent abroad
China using families as 'hostages' to quash dissent abroad
cross-posted from: https://lemmy.zip/post/863209
Archived version: https://archive.ph/5Ok1c
Archived version: https://web.archive.org/web/20230731013125/https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-66337328
What is with the China apologists in this thread? Wtf??
I found this to be a decent enough primer: https://medium.com/@bobbyarlan/a-case-study-in-racist-anti-chinese-sentiment-fuelled-by-american-bots-and-western-propaganda-f0a69978d568
A decent TLDR: The article argues that anti-Chinese propaganda spread by the U.S. and Western media is fueling racist sentiment. Claims of mass detention of Uyghurs are based on flawed studies and sources like Adrian Zenz, a far-right Christian fundamentalist. Atrocity propaganda is a common tactic used by the U.S. to justify wars. The U.S. is threatened by China's economic rise and technological progress, so it is trying to portray China negatively and prepare public opinion for a potential conflict. However, most of the world sees China positively and as an economic opportunity, making a new Cold War against China unlikely to succeed
In short, a lot of information about China that has come out of Western news media has been proven to be based on known biased sources, known anit-China rhetoric, and/or outright lies. It's difficult to prove/disprove of any information specifically, that takes time and reporting, but a lot of people see the anti-China pattern in BBC reporting, and tend to dismiss it because of known history.
I think this flies a bit too far in the other direction. China is totalitarian. It is not a democracy. It is also increasingly antagonizing nations abroad. I think it is valid to consider it a threat if you are any other nation, period.
Edit: Kinda like Russia
Or you know, you could just listen to someone who was in an internment camp:
(Also your summary sounds like ChatGPT)
Apparently there is a PRC smear campaign against Adrian Zenz - https://www.mandiant.com/resources/blog/pro-prc-information-operations-campaign-haienergy, including by creating what Mandiant describes as what they "suspect to be at least three fabricated letters based on obvious grammatical errors and typos" to smear him - so I'd take anything that is ad hominem attacks against him rather than debating his actual work with a grain of salt.
However, even if you don't accept his writings, there are plenty of other people who have done credible research into the plight of the Uyghur people - e.g. resources contributed to https://xjdp.aspi.org.au/, such as articles like this one by Gene A. Bunin: https://livingotherwise.com/2021/01/04/the-elephant-in-the-xuar-ii-brand-new-prisons-expanding-old-prisons-and-hundreds-of-thousands-new-inmates/.
Tankies try not to be brain damaged challenge (impossible)
This, my friend, is the absense of neocon/neolib censorship and propaganda that you were so used to on corporate social media.
Isn't it great?
What's with all the conspiracy nutcases here? The fucking Uighur genocide... smh, are the space lizards making China do this or is it Sasquatch man?
What’s with all the conspiracy nutcases here? The fucking Uighur genocide…
... is mostly sourced from a far right German nationalist who's been proven to mistranslate Chinese documents over and over again, and claims that God gave him a mission to destroy China.
... has been debunked by many Muslim countries visiting China to investigate
... is a media narrative connected to the US funding radical Islamic groups to destabilize east turkestan and failing miserably as the Chinese response was mostly improving economic conditions and funding uyghur cultural programs which actually is effective at deradicalization, which is what the US could have done in Iraq in Afghanistan if they were over there for altruistic or mutually beneficial reasons and not just to extract oil and opium while making some defense contractors very rich.
Lots of mainstream western racists are now here after reddit migration. It's a good reminder of just how deranged people who guzzle western propaganda all day are.
It seems to be a much greater conspiracy to claim that there is a genocide going on over a huge population concentrated in the region without producing a massive refugee crisis like we saw with other genocides (e.g. the Holocaust) and with a massive dearth of photo/video evidence despite most young people in China having a VPN on their phones.
We have nothing to do with the China situation. That's entirely the fault of the Yeti.
I see it all over Lemmy unfortunately. I think it is because Lemmy is still relatively fringe and it is where lots of pro communism communities emerged. Normally, I find it actually pretty refreshing to see more left wing stuff but the pro China (or at least the kneejerk reactions to anything anti China) to be exhausting.
To be fair, I used to see a lot of it on Reddit as well. I think they are just a bigger proportion percentage wise on Lemmy so you see much more of it.
It's a bit of a mixed bag. There are a lot of pro-China comments that are just... Well they either drank the kool-aid or are dishing it out. Especially when it comes to social policies.
On the other hand, China has been making significant technological accomplishments that you just don't hear about in Western media. They've made a lot of advancements in spaceflight and manufacturing processes that humanity as a whole could benefit from if we were more cooperative. And that's not even mentioning Nuclear Power.
China is WAY ahead of the rest of the world when it comes to new nuclear power. They're the only ones with Gen 4 reactors, the only ones working on Thorium reactors, and are on track to build over 100 new nuclear plants over the next few years. China is to nuclear power as the US is to weapons; sure other countries might be tinkering with some stuff, but there's really no comparison when they're doing more than the rest of the world combined.
I wish there were more unbiased sources. Unfortunately, there's usually only one of two sides. Either you get news from China which usually boils down to "We're amazing and nothing we do is ever bad or wrong. Anyone saying otherwise is just lying because they're jealous/afraid of our wild success!" Or you get news from the US/West that's basically "China is a totalitarian poo-country that's on the verge of collapse. They contribute nothing to global advancement and the only thing they're good for is making cheap, poor quality, crap."
This post is on lemmy.ml, an instance whose owner decided to continue federating with lemmygrad.ml for... reasons. Go visit lemmygrad.ml and you'll understand why.
Lemmy was literally a tankie shithole before the Reddit influx, and even then not much changed
why are you here then, leave if it bothers you lol
First day on Lemmy? There are quite a few suspiciously active trolls on here, especially on worldnews communities
Edit - ah right on cue
Thanks for providing an example of a self referential comment.
They're paid astroturfers and they don't belong on Lemmy. Why the server admins refuse to police them, I just don't know.
Wow, talk about conspiracy theories...
"Every person who doesn't participate in Sinophobi is paid off by the Chinese government"
Like, really? You actually believe that? Was 911 an inside job? How hot DOES jet fuel get??? Is Q-anon real? Is the earth flat?
If you've ever debunked a conspiracy theory, you should reconsider the idea that maybe, just maybe, not everyone hates China. It's probably more likely than you think..
Edit: And then they edited their comment to be more defensive instead. Perfect.
Me and the boys waiting for the ccp checks liberals said we were getting:
Imagine thinking there are paid astroturfers on a tiny niche platform with a few thousand users. We have some utterly insane people here after reddit migration.
Can you provide even circumstantial evidence of people like myself being paid, or are you resorting to unhinged conspiracy theories to explain people vociferously disagreeing with you?
Lemme invoice Xi real quick
Sample size: 58 people
18 in the U.K., 28 in Turkey, and 12 in Thailand.
The authors wish to extend their gratitude to the individuals and organisations who supported this research by providing concrete feedback for revisions on the report, offering suggestions and advice at the planning stages, and offering ongoing collaborative and moral support while conducting this research: Elise Anderson, Campaign for Uyghurs, Freedom House, Tim Grose, Ondřej Klimeš, Julie Millsap, David O’Brien, the Rights Practice, Radio Free Asia, Isabella Rodriguez, David Stroup, Hannah Theaker, Emily Upson, the Uyghur Human Rights Project, the Uyghur Transitional Justice Database, the World Uyghur Congress, the Xinjiang Documentation Project, the Xinjiang Victims’ Database, and Adrian Zenz.
Author
Yes, very trustable! /s
This is so key to propaganda. When researchers do a study on 58 people, you can barely claim you have a good representation of the population. And even in that case, if they are good, high quality researchers, they aren't pushing any opinion, just stating facts. It's just that 58 people can't represent the population well, It's just a starting point.
Now if we're talking about an opinion and not just stated facts, 58 people is hardly representative, easy to manipulate, especially when you don't have to cite specifics, just conclusion.
Okay, let's assume these are facts. 58 people were threatened, etc. This is still propaganda. Opinion, and interpretation can push the conversation in one direction or the other very heavily.
For example, let's draw a comparison to a system that people find more familiar (For westerners, at least), such as the united states police system or the FBI. How many US citizens are threatened to stop talking when pushing the limits of conversation publicly (Say, about calling out the inhumane treatment of others by the US military)? How many people have talked publicly about being approached by the FBI, or said they can't comment on their interactions with the FBI, or of some private corporation that paid them off to keep their mouths shut about some insider deal, money laundering, or underage sex scandal? Governments and even private citizens coming after people who are talking shit publicly happens in capitalist states all the time.
And that's just taking into account regular people who live in western countries. How about an even more direct comparison? The Uyghurs are Muslims that participated in terrorism in China, but the United States had Muslim terrorists of their own, what did they do? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_post-invasion_Iraq You can find all kinds of resources about the human rights violations that the united states participated in against the muslin people, even in western sources such as wikipidia, and others https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/03/iraq-20-years-since-the-us-led-coalition-invaded-iraq-impunity-reigns-supreme/ have lots and lots of facts surrounding this.
"rules for thee, but not for me" comes to mind.
Sorry didn't mean to unload on you. I'm vehemently agreeing!
Adrian Zenz is credible. The only ones who disagrees are brain damaged tankies
I'm just gonna sit back and enjoy the tankies from lemmygrad denying or trying to justify this one as well. 🍿
*Tankies from lemmygrad and lemmy.ml.
I gotta say it is quite entertaining.
😴😴😴😴
Its a very weakly sourced state sponsored media article reporting on their state enemy. You have to be willfully credulous to believe their claims without further proof.
It doesn't mean that reports are false just because two states are enemies (which is an exaggeration).
"Just because the last 100 articles were bullshit doesn't mean this one is too!"
No. It does.
It doesn’t mean that reports are false just because two states are enemies (which is an exaggeration).
If they were strongly cited I would not be criticizing people believing them. All sources are biased, the question is how factual a source is.
The BBC is strongly biased against China. If they make claims without proof the most logical course of action is to not assume they are telling the truth and not incorporate what they say into your beliefs. (Note that this is different than "assume they are lying")
Yeah, China was a major ally, but it is showing its dark (autocratic) side lately.
Aren't these threads wild? These people don't want to engage in actual discussion here. They just want to remove your agency by calling you brainwashed, do the sealion "source" thing, and then ad hominem away any sources you do provide.
I've said it before and I'll say it again - the world deserves a better class of communist.
I saw a piece about the shadow police in germany lately. I am sure that the chinese foreign police exists.
I have no doubt, every nation has secret police. I simply doubt they are doing what the article suggests theyre doing. It seems to me the article is interested in explaining why there aren't many uyghur Muslims joining their narrative and why a lot of them are supportive of China and feel their culture is respected.
How would that work if they have a toxic family and decided to kill 2 birds with one stone?
I mean if the CCP threatened my family while I'm abroad, I'd just go: "Lol go ahead, idgaf. They're toxic anyways. Thanks for getting rid of them for me." 😎
But too bad my toxic family is already here and I had to endure their abuse. 😥
That does assume that person's with a toxic FOO have been able to emotionally distance themselves from them.
That's a tall order.
I mean I have some pretty toxic family members as well, but at least a few of them are decent or innocent people. Pretty much everyone is going to have at least one family member that they care about even if most are shit heads.
A UN Resolution of global south nations:https://undocs.org/pdf?symbol=en/A/HRC/41/G/17
We express our firm opposition to relevant countries’ practice of politicizing human rights issues, by naming and shaming, and publicly exerting pressures on other countries. We commend China’s remarkable achievements in the field of human rights by adhering to the people-centered development philosophy and protecting and promoting human rights through development. We also appreciate China’s contributions to the international human rights cause.
World Bank Investigation of Xinjiang:https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/statement/2019/11/11/world-bank-statement-on-review-of-project-in-xinjiang-china
When allegations are made, the World Bank takes them seriously and reviews them thoroughly. In line with standard practice, immediately after receiving a series of serious allegations in August 2019 in connection with the Xinjiang Technical and Vocational Education and Training Project, the Bank launched a fact-finding review, and World Bank senior managers traveled to Xinjiang to gather information directly...The team conducted a thorough review of project documents, engaged in discussions with project staff, and visited schools directly financed by the project, as well as their partner schools that were the subject of allegations. The review did not substantiate the allegations.
Organization of Islamic Cooperation praises Chinese handling of Xinjiang:https://www.oic-oci.org/docdown/?docID=4447&refID=1250
Welcomes the outcomes of the visit conducted by the General Secretariat's delegation upon invitation from the People's Republic of China; commends the efforts of the People's Republic of China in providing care to its Muslim citizens; and looks forward to further cooperation between the OIC and the People's Republic of China.
http://www.inp.net.pk/china-lauds-oics-resolution-on-xinjiang/
Egyptian media delegates visit Xinjiang: https://www.thenews.com.pk/latest/430738-egyptian-media-delegates-provide-a-detailed-insight-of-the-situation-in-xinjiang
The recently published report also brings forth some interesting facts related to the religious freedom as opposed to the western propaganda. The report provides a strong testimonial by the visiting delegates who clearly state, “the in houses of worship such as the Id Kah Mosque in Kashgar, modern facilities abound, providing water, electricity and air conditioning. Local clerics told the visitors that their religious activities had been very well protected”. "The conditions here are very good," said Abdelhalim Elwerdany, of Egypt's Al-Gomhuria newspaper. "I could feel that local Muslims fully enjoy religious freedom."
Also Adrian Zenz is a complete moron:
Source: Trust me bro.
This is pretty crazy if true. I wonder if it has any connections to the alleged "ghost" CCP police stations that were reported around in Canada. I believe it was being claimed the stations were being used to bully Chinese people that were in Canada.
That was yet another crazy China Bad conspiracy theory, same as this one.
Thanks for the source, definitely gonna read it later.
when I researched I thought a couple of things were off curious what light the article shines on that
I don't know man. The RCMP has recently charged one of their officers for allegedly putting pressure on people of Chinese origin. Now, I'll admit this a pretty different situation than the "secret Chinese police stations" and, as far as I know, no charges been brought up in their cases or anything found during their investigations. However, China does appear to be putting pressure on its citizens from abroad using clandestine methods. Is the West likely doing much the same? shrug I haven't heard about that myself but regardless this kind of practice shouldn't be done by any country.
Anyway I found this National Post article which has more details:
https://nationalpost.com/news/b-c-man-places-chinese-police-station-sign-in-front-of-rcmp-detachment
Anyway, I appreciate the source but I gotta say I don't find it very credible. It starts going down a rabbit hole that this all part of some CIA backed psyop, but I don't really believe that. These types of stories have been popping up around the world and I doubt the CIA has that kind of reach in some attempt to... what... make China look bad?
Just saw an investigative piece about the chinese shadowpolice in germany by a reputable reporter-team. I am convinced they exist.
Please link to your source
ah, the north korean playbook
There's literally memes about the bullshit about North Korea. Stop believing the news about America's targets, they'll make a fool of you.
Of having hysterical bullshit invented about them? True enough. Quick, does every man in North Korea need to have Kim's haircut or is no one allowed to have it?
lmao we have chinese apologists jesus thats so sad
Didn't know these kinds of people existed until I showed up here. They must have been hiding on reddit or something it's insane how braindead these people are.
Yes, the reason diaspora isn't speaking out against China is because there's a conspiracy to silence them.~
There can't possibly be any other explanation.~
Well I, as a former citizen of China, do "speak out" against CCP as in family discussions, in online forums, and sometimes with classmates in school, but I don't "speak out" as in actually participate in protests. Demonstrations just isn't my thing. Protesting against CCP gets you labeled a "race traitor". I mean honestly, with all the racial problems in the US, and having to deal with my abusive family, I really don't have to energy care about CCP anymore. It's dead to me. I view China just like how an anti-fascist German view Nazi Germany. There's no point of protests. It's beyond anything a protest can fix. Like... why do I even care, it isn't even my country anymore.
Edit: Also, it isn't a conspiracy that ethnic Chinese (I'm gonna use the term "ethnic Chinese" because this applies regardless of citizenship status) people don't "speak out". People just value "Social Harmony" more than being correct. Like if you live abroad, why care about what happens back in China? Most ethnic Chinese people who lives abroad don't really feel welcome in their new country, so why be against your former country if you aren't even sure if you are actually safe in your new one? You don't end up in a situation where you have no safe harbor in the world. Ethnic Chinese people living abroad believe China will accept them again in-case their living situation abroad goes south, so they don't want to get on the bad side of the Chinese government. Like what happened with the Chinese Exclusion act in the US more than 100 years ago, and also the Japanese Internment Camps. Maybe you disagree with the thought process, but that is what most ethnic Chinese people think.
As someone who legitimately has family in China and who visits them and speaks to them in Mandarin, there is 100% a chilling effect caused by CCP autocracy.
But I am eager to hear how a bunch of people who have never been and don't speak the language know more about this because they read a pamphlet.
Yeah, as someone who merely visited I got enough eyefulls and earfulls to know you don't want the Chinese government to know you exist for any reason.
Sinophobic propaganda 🙄
Such cowardly actions befit a gang of criminals, not the righteous leadership of a proud nation. The Chinese people deserve far better.
"He's a little confused but he's got the spirit"
PSA: these kinds of threads are a great way to create blocklists of western bootlickers and trolls.
Curious. Seems to work both ways.
I don't have any issue with that, the less toxic people I have to interact with on here the happier I'll be. I encourage anybody who finds my comments and posts upsetting to block me and move on.
Don't feed the troll. He's an actual professional troll who will try his hardest to drag you into a debate. I like to just keep editing my comments with new links that refute his claims, and that's when he totally loses it and gives me -30 and himself +55 updoots on a post with a grand total of 18 votes. He's really aggressive but he's not very good at his job.
Edit: I can see he has gone through my post history and downvoted everything so I have 0 or negative karma or whatever it's called.. and he did it a week afterwards. He's a spiteful little troll, isn't he? I don't care about updoots. You can't silence the truth, you dumb fuck.
Can't you guys just stop using Adrian Zens? Is no one else able to make up unhinged nonsense about China? Literally all it takes is for him to adopt a pseudonym and the credibility of the propaganda increases entirely for free.
He's a credible source, you're just mad that China is shit and Marxism is shit and he's making it look bad.
How could you possibly believe this? Which part of his work do you find well reasoned? Is it the work he does with VoC where he says Covid-19 is a communist weapon? Is it Worthy to Escape where he says that if you abuse women, homosexuals or children, you're always morally in the right because those actions repel the Antichrist?
What does he have to do with this story? His name isn't mentioned in the article.
I'd like to draw attention to how every tankie who commented in this thread actually looked at the sources whereas the liberals mostly read the headline.
Literally follow every citation and you'll find him a lot