6h ago

Do you think "there are no innocent" is a valid view?

It seems that there are a lot of Israelis that believe that there are no innocents in Gaza. And one could argue that it's possible that a significant majority of the population is hateful towards Israelis, considering the history.

If you agree with this argument, can you please explain why and elaborate? And if you don't, how would you refute it? There is no data that shows that there isn't a significant majority that's hateful towards the Israelis.

DISCLAIMER: I'm not stating my opinion as I want to hear an unbiased opinion from you.

40 comments

Hard no.
The idea that your can judge an entire group of people to be innocent or not is heavily flawed. Even if any groups cultural influence was hypothetically incredibly evil, do people deserve death for being influenced by their surroundings? How do we gauge who has true evil in their heart, and who was harbouring doubts but couldn't say anything? We literally can't, and that kind of thinking shouldn't be used to decide judgement of a person, let alone who lives and who dies. In practical terms things get muddier sure, but we're way past that point.
At this point I feel like the conclusion of violence is made first, then the justification coming afterwards.

That is usually how a genocide is justified to the public. Every member of the 'undesireabe' group is guilty of being an undesirable, and can thus be justifyably murdered.
Examples:
All Jewish people are guilty of some conspiracy and/or killing Jesus
All Muslim people are guilty of replacing white christians and/or terrorism
All LGBTQ people are guilty of grooming kids
All Palestinians are guilty of 'occupying' Israeli land.
etc.
Every example of this is a tool of propaganda to get the public to go along with unfair treatment up to and including genocide. The fact that they're all easily refuted doesn't matter. It goes hand in hand with the view that the group aren't fully people.
This reasoning is never ok, no matter what group of people it's used against this time. When you recognize it, call it out for the sham it is.

Those people who say that are just trying to justify their own hatred/bigotry/war crimes.

I don't care if someone says that there are no innocent Israelis or no innocent Gazans. It's despicable either way, and if it's coming from a person of faith - Jewish, Muslim, or Christian, then they are directly violating the will of God. (Gen 18:17 ff)
If they are a Kahanist or Hamas supporter, then they are in favor of literal terrorism.

it is a valid view.
but i do not support it.
imo, anything that uses absolutes tends to get out of reasonable bounds. no innocents in Gaza is really hard to prove.

A friend of mine said something reaaaaaalllllly controversial. IDF claims everyone in GAZA is a terrorist. But look at Israel, everyone has mandatory military service. Everyone has either been in IDF, is currently in IDF, or will be in IDF.
If anything the opposite of "everyone in GAZA is a terrorist" holds more ground honestly.

Children are not born with hatred in their heart.
And as others have pointed out, hatred =/= not innocent. Nobody deserves to die just for hating someone. Even if you could justify killing someone just cause they allegedly hate you, I have a very very difficult time believing that all Palestinians hate Israelis and vice versa. Again, people are not born with hatred in their heart and the actions of a government don't always reflect the feelings of their citizens.
Also just being pedantic about your disclaimer: opinions are biased. You can't ask for an unbiased opinion. You can make an unbiased (to an extent) statement, but not an opinion.
- They meant an opinion less influenced by the opinion of the surveyor.

And if you don't, how would you refute it? There is no data that shows that there isn't a significant majority that's hateful towards the Israelis.
First, you can't just say "there is no data that shows that there isn't X"; you need data that shows X. However, you'll probably find that data fairly easily, because Palestinians hate Israelis' guts. That gets us to the real problem with this argument: Having an opinion doesn't make one guilty of anything. Only acts can make one guilty, acts like—for example—voting for Likud and other Israeli pro-war parties knowing they're running on a campaign of Palestinian extermination. It's just more projection from fascists (and make no mistake Zionism is a fascist ideology. For reference see: https://zionism.wtf/.)

It is a pointless view that solves nothing. Flip it around, say "all (on both sides) are not guilty" and you might have a starting point.

Palestinians have every right and plenty of reasons to hate Israelis as far as I am concerned
- Its like with Nazi germany. Sure not literally ALL germans supported hitler but they also just didnt do enough to stop him. When your children are killed by people with israeli flags, its hard not to hate the whole country.
  That doesnt make them guilty of anything other than hatred however. The amount of people in gaza actively involved in killing israeli civilians is close to zero. Killing soldiers occupying your land is not great but arguably not morally bad.
  
  There were literally thousands of Hamas fighters who entered Israel by land, sea, and air on Oct 7, 2023. They captured and held territory, killed 1200 people, kidnapped hundreds more, and committed war crimes. Hamas claims that they have/had 10s of thousands more fighters. The scale of these numbers is undisputed.
  How is that "close to zero?"

Those who say there are innocent seem to lack empathy.
What is a child guilty of in the conflict? There are always non combatants who are stuck in this wanting no part on either side.
- You missed a word in there.
  I don't think it's lack of empaty, or rather, it's not just lack of empaty, I think it's more an active lumping together of people and ancestry.
  So much so Zionist, and Nazi, are into their own a-priori "positive" quality, coherently, absurdly so, Palestinian children have a-priori negative qualities.
  I feel sick just typing this because I would think this is very very very clearly idiotic. But it seems to take hold of plenty of people's worldview.
  
  They lack empathy for the out group.
  And often folks like that don't really have much empathy for the in group once the masks come off.

No, if you believe that you're a genocidal maniac.

I don't think this is a properly formed question because there's a difference between "not hateful" and "innocent". "Innocent" also needs further qualification - innocent of what?
Also, there are no "unbiased opinion" on anything, that's just not possible.
- Also, there are no "unbiased opinion" on anything, that's just not possible.
  It is possible to get someone's opinion without accidentally influencing them, which is what they're referring to.

I would argue that any group of non-self-selected humans will have a handful of members who are inherently good or bad, but as a whole they will be no better or worse than any other group raised in similar circumstances and sharing similar experiences. So any blanket condemnation of an entire group is really a condemnation of the circumstances they’ve been subjected to.

It's probably true for some definition of innocent except for small children and babies. The problem is that people making this argument don't do so honestly otherwise they'd have to apply it to themselves and their own group as well. If nobody is innocent, it doesn't make sense to use it as a discriminator.
- Exactly this. And all or nothing thinking like nobody is innocent. It's like CBT 101 of stuff to let go of.

To me it seems those Israelis are projecting... in other words: They're claiming there are no innocent Israelis. An accusation is usually a confession in this time and age I've noticed.

Obviously they will be hateful. This should not be enough to consider them guilty however.

It's pretty easy to be blinded by hatred and anger and wanting to excuse your own actions. I think we've all been there in life. Whoever is saying "there are no innocents" in Palestine is clearly at that stage.

It's an extreme perspective and an oversimplification. So necessarily wrong if you state it this way... Neither do all people in Israel seem to support this, nor is "innocent" any attribute that fits the purpose. Technically like a newborn baby should be pretty much innocent. An adult may not, even if it's just an act of omission. But it's not really a philosophical question in this case, is it? And it's not even what this is about. So I'd say that sentence is immediately wrong on technicalities.

It can be valid, it surely doesn't apply to Gaza.
We are "all" guilty because we knowingly pollute, for example, and that kills people. And we buy products and that finance Israel bombs. And we fight for survival and strangle our jailer that just landed that job to feed his family and never got quality education to choose a different career.
I am more of the idea that there are no truly guilty in a strict sense. We as a society share the responsibility to handle the now extended knowledge we have and we are basically not even trying.

It is most definitely used the other way around.
Personally I disagree with it. Hamas, however needs to be held accountable to October 7th.
- And the IDF needs to be held accountable for their war crimes. Thing is, they're not targeting Hamas, they're targeting innocent bystanders.
  
  And Hamas admit using Gaza's civilians as human shields and have done going back around 20 years.

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