Downtowns are dead, dying or on life support, says expert with over 50 years of researching urban policy
Downtowns are dead, dying or on life support, says expert with over 50 years of researching urban policy
We have a dramatic shortage of residential property. We have a dramatic oversupply of commercial property. IF ONLY THERE WAS A SOLUTION
IF ONLY THERE WAS A SOLUTION
Middle managers: I agree. From now on you'll be required to be in office 4 days a week instead of 2!
Speaking of which:
You can ‘smell history’ in Tampa cigar factory becoming student housing
They'll never get the smell out either. Not completely. I feel sorry for the students.
Unfortunately, in most cities that is illegal. Zoning laws prevent turning commercial property into residential even when it is possible. It also prevents developers from building moderate, high, and even certain types of low density housing.
For the millionth time it’s not that simple. Retrofitting commercial buildings is often impossible or more expensive than just demolishing and building new which is also ungodly expensive especially with how high interest rates are right now. Unless cities step in with millions of dollars per project it’s usually not financially possible.
If the problem is money then there is no problem. It becomes a necessity and you can't just not afford necessity. We allegedly are the richest country they need to figure it out regardless of cost. That simple.
It's like climate change, there is no issue with money it just has to get done. Pay for it regardless of the cost. It is necessary
I live on the North end of the SF Bay Area and literally every empty lot and a shit load of pasture land and open space is currently being developed into either low income apartments, high end apartments, town houses or track homes. It's honestly kind of shocking. Everywhere you go, new residential development.
Sonoma County supervisors were supposed to vote on a housing development plan in January, but failed to do so until August, and in the meantime there was a special rule that allowed builders to go ahead without most of the red tape they usually face. They took the opportunity and ran with it.
Retrofitting commercial buildings is often impossible or more expensive than just demolishing
That sounds like a "them" problem.
They can watch their investments dry up and lose billions, or pivot to the new market. Not our fault they're stuck in the 80s.
This is such bullshit. It doesn't cost millions of dollars to add new plumbing, HVAC, and interior walls.
Buildings not even built strong enough for multipurpose use. Ahh the "efficiency" of capitalism...
Also, no one said it has to be rennovated to be exactly like normal apartments. Some mixedly shared living spaces exist in some entire cultures for crying out loud.
I’ll take an entire floor for the cost of one bachelor unit.
If you think that’s not fair to the building owner, I agree, they made a bad investment.
This might come as a shock to you but, human dignity doesn't give a fuck about commercial real state value. Because commercial real estate owners don't give a fuck about human dignity. So reciprocating the same level of care is fine for most.
if only there was a solution that wouldnt immediately destroy billions of dollars in commercial real estate.
Please. Will somebody think of the poor poor investors?
You may be correct but we need to think of solutions. Not just rely on conventional wisdom thats says it's not possible by current standards
most standard office floors dont have more than two or maybe 3 restrooms
Oh no! Too bad they don't sell common plumbing supplies at the Home Goddamned Depot.
After moving from the US to Europe there is something magical about walking around the city and town centers here. Not just the tourist traps like Rome and Paris but smaller towns and villages with tiny narrow streets lined with shops and restaurants and people walking around. So much better than the souless shells our downtowns have become in the US.
The 8000th "Covid killed cities" article, just shifting the goalposts and jumping around to different cities with different metrics out of context to make it seem worse than it is.
Walmart, suburbs, and the Internet killed downtowns IMO.
Are you saying that you don't think cities are having issues?
I'm saying cities aren't dying. Cities reinvent themselves when they have issues. Oh no, the textile industry is leaving NYC after WWII and the area those factories were in is considered a slum, the city is dying... and now that area is SoHo.
If this article was just trying to say "cities are still working their way back to pre-covid commercial activity levels" then sure, there is a temporary issue from a generational pandemic, agreed. But if you think people are going to stop moving to cities long term you are just wrong.
Makes sense. Downtowns are commercial districts with few, if any, residential buildings. Restaurants exist there to feed the various workers. Workers will shop after work or bring family/friends/dates to the area because it's something they know or are familiar with.
With WFH, no one has a reason to go to downtown. Cost of living increases already make them think twice about doing so.
All in all, we're seeing a shift from specifically zoned districts to mixed use downtowns. This means smaller stores, more walkable or mass transit focus. These cities will just need to incentivize conversion of these downtowns to include more residential structures.
we need statewide laws, preempting any local zoning laws, that allow dense residential buildings with no parking minimums in any zone that allows office uses.
Disabled parking should always be required. Not everybody can take public transit, or not without it being unreasonably burdensome and/or dangerous (think immunocompromised people for transit being dangerous).
What cities are preventing downtown residential construction? All the office construction was because it was more profitable. Cities are already bending backwards to developers.
Statewide laws preempting local laws is how you consolidate corruption most effectively. We added a half cent local sales tax to permanently end toll roads 30ish years ago and the state went ahead and overruled it. We still pay thebextra half cent AND they just added ANOTHER goddamn half cent.
Florida is purple but all the state sponsored corruption, racism and meth cna sure make it seem red.
Zoning is only useful for the type of place that isn't built to keep harmful emissions confined to their land. Farms (manure smell), and some chemical industry apply and should not have housing at all. Farmers will be shocked to learn I just told them they need to move to town.
Here here
Decades of rebuilding downtowns to accommodate vehicle traffic and commuters is the problem.
It's "the sticks", not "the Styx" unless they're coming from a Tommy Shaw concert or commuting from the bowels of hell. :)
If anything they would be commuting to Styx.
Decades of rebuilding downtowns to accommodate vehicle traffic and commuters is the problem.
More like "demolishing" than "rebuilding," but otherwise you're spot-on!
Could probably use some more stadiums and parking lots.
That'll perk things up.
I can't afford food for myself, and every day gets worse and worse, I'm sure I'm not alone, this is what happens when you let the working class go so far down the hole all they can afford to do is work and sleep.
Are you living in the US by any chance?
Yep.
I have a strong hatred for how many storefronts are taken up by "antique shops" (i.e. dusty warehouses full of junk you couldn't give away) instead of actual businesses in the last two small towns I lived in. Makes it so you can't really get that much shopping done downtown.
Don't hate on the antique shops. Hate on the big box stores that everyone goes to shop and has left the only possible business for a small store to become an antique shop.
EDIT: Also fuck dollar general
The tax write off shops for bored housewives needing something to do.
Wait, is this another trick to make me go back to the office?
I wouldn't say thats what it is, but it is used for that
I pray you guys never get a walmart
That actually sounds cool. My experience with downtown areas has been less than positive.. more of a maze, everything very overpriced.. now that I think about it it's very similar to a large airport.
Shame as it'd be nice to just walk around for all your needs.. you'd think it would actually be more cost effective.
One of the most-striking experiences of my regional metro core's death throes was needing to pee but my train was delayed. Tried walking across the way to the local train station to use their facilities but the security guy they'd hired to keep the homeless out about fought me to keep me from using the restroom.
If you wonder why your city streets and transit zones smell like piss, it's because when you lock up your bathrooms to keep the homeless people away, they'll piss on your street
You think it would be obvious but for some reason. I'm not sure if I have IBS or something, but I am always on the look out for bathrooms and they are so hard to find downtown.
In the town that we spent our summers in, there was a single, well hidden, public restroom on Main Street. This is a town that makes their living on tourism. You would think they wouldn't want people have quit shopping and leave downtown to pee.
I use to go downtown somewhat often, but I don't have the money to do it these days.
That's one of the biggest factors for me, too. Of course the elite want to blame it all on WFH, but there are plenty of people who would still go to downtown areas to eat and shop and go to bars, but who the hell can afford that these days? If wages were even close to keeping up with the cost of living, I'd guess there would be more downtown activity.
WFH does has some effect on people going out. Personally, I have the financial means to still go out on occasion, I just don't. When I used to have to drive in for work, I would eat lunch out about once every other week (I have an old, bad habit of treating myself to lunch on pay day). That's a sold meal which is now gone from that area's economy, and I'm sure there were a lot more. Beyond that, I find that there is now a greater mental barrier to the effort required to get dressed up and go out for a meal or shopping downtown. I'm like Professor Farnsworth from Futurama, "well, I could go out. But, I am already in my pajamas."
That said, ya it's not all WFH. Even with the financial means to go out, the current economic environment means that I'd rather not spend $100 eating an over-priced, poorly cooked meal somewhere downtown. I can spend $50 on some really nice ingredients, grill up a couple steaks, cook vegetables which aren't overcooked to be limper than a eunuch's dick and eat potatoes which don't taste like they came out of a box. The other $50 can go into savings and I don't face social pressure to put on real pants.
Don't forget about all the poor idiots supporting them!
"They're a business and they need to make money!" Funny how we don't hear this as often anymore. The people who said it before were so gung-ho about it being an absolute truth with no nuance or exceptions.
How the fuck does this article define "downtown"? Can't find an explanation in it.
I don't think it's something that needs to be explained.
You can look up for yourself what downtown means if you're confused.
Poorly planned cities no surprises there.
In the middle of the 20th century there was a huge migration of people out of city centres and into suburbs. Some of my relatives bought up properties back then and made bank when the city expanded. I don't expect inner cities to remain quiet forever, but the way they're used might change.
huge migration of people
White people. Because due to desegregation, they were suddenly required to have black people in their neighborhoods if those black people wanted to buy a house there. So they ran away from the black people.
Not everyone lives in the US. While aboriginal people in Australia also tended to stay in the inner city they make up a much smaller proportion of the population, and the divide between city and suburbs was more along socioeconomic lines than racial ones; it just happened that due to racism the Aboriginals were in the lower socioeconomic group.
Shock and horror... White people mooooooved...
The biggest draw major cities can implement is not designing their city centers around cars.
Cities could be like amusement parks, not whatever they are now.
Modern downtown includes residential developments - live and work without the need for a car.
Good. Fuck those clusterfuck jungles.
Good. Much like malls, big cities are a thing of the past. People don't want that anymore, cities are hell to travel around, dirty, stinky, expensive and unsustainable. Most people would have a vastly better time in a well developed small/mid town area.
Always hate going downtown. Way too dangerous and theres too much stuff packed in too small an area.
Totally agree.
No one wants to be downtown in any city. That's where all of the trouble is, drug addicts, homeless, crime..
I avoid downtown at all costs in all of the cities near me.
There’s plenty of drugs and crime in the boonies, too
Yeah but there's white picket fences and at least two Lowe's, so you can say "hey let's go to the good Lowe's today."
I mean, by density it seems like there just would be less unless you are claiming a much higher drugs and crime per capita in the boonies. And you can drive by at 55mph and avoid it much more IME.
Usually the drug use is kept on people's properties.
And the people, you know, actually own their property.
As far as crime? Well, my car was never broken into until I moved in with my friends in the center of Houston.
We've all had our cars broken into without the guy ever getting caught. Also had a stabbing murder right down the street, so that was nice.
Ever since leaving the major city, I haven't really experienced any crime personally. Not that it doesn't happen, it's just way more prevalent in major cities.
Ya, because I totally get stabbed by used needles and homeless people in the boonies..
I'd argue the types of crime happening in the boonies is vastly different than downtown, but the drug selling is probably higher. Going by the police blotters for the towns in my area:
Number one crime in the biggest city: Car theft.
Number one crime in the country: Farmers shooting their pets.
But there's definitely hella drug dealing going on in the cuts. Ain't no cops, less likely to be seen.
Yeah but whenever they try to accost me on the side of the road I can just roll coal in their face and drive away
I love living downtown.
Good for you
I don't know where it love but downtown is probably some of the most sought after property and desirable locations in Toronto. So you statement is most definitely not applicable to "any city".
U scared bro?
No. We're sick of subsidizing suburbanites, like we have been for the last 80 years. Get with the times, or live in the country and leave your car at the edge of town.
I mean this is kinda the point. No one with a car wants to go into a downtown with no parking. And as people have figured out WFH, and way more people need to lower costs and stop paying so much for food. And shopping without a car is a PITA, I did it a couple times in college. Completely unworkable to go shopping once a week. I don't want to spend my life daily going to the store. And now you can get everything delivered. So shopping is down to 'event shopping' like Macys at Christmas. Similarly for eating out, no one is looking to spend 40 for 2 at a subway. So if you're spending lots of dollars you might splurge rarely and only go to high end restaurants killing off diners etc.
And people still find all this cheaper than living in cities. The rent and all other costs have been out of reach for decades. So like so much else, people need lower prices which seems unlikely, much higher wages, also unlikely, or cities continue to hollow out.
I'll just park at the big park and ride lot at the edge of town...oh wait, there aren't any.
Making cities even more anti-human hellscapes is why nobody wants to be in a city in the first place. There needs to be MORE of the things you want to get rid of. You’ll be more likely to visit their diner if walking past the diner, and the cafe, and the pub is a pleasant experience. Local business dies when places become destinations spread out by a concrete mile of car infrastructure because you can’t window shop from a car. Other countries figured it out a long time ago.
If you drive downtown is not the place for you. Once you figure out how to take a bus (which may not even be possible, and often is harder than it should be!) downtown can be a nice place .
Yeah thats what we need now, less bikes and even more cars
Most downtowns are built for commuters rather than residents. They forced out residents in favor of building higher cost commercial real estate. What residential buildings there is targets only the highest incomes. No surprise they are struggling.
Hear me out, and this might sound crazy: but what if we build walkable, mixed-use neighborhoods with shops, parks, and libraries? That way people will boost local economy instead of getting into car and driving to centralized locations like Walmart or malls?
Then who would we sell gas to?
That sounds like some of that communist soci-libral nazism to me, for sure for sure /s
We had that. We bulldozed it.
I mean, what kind of healthy life are you trying to live?
But then you will hear many decry the creation of 15 minute cities and they want to force us to never leave the area and take away our cars to control us.
I wish I could end this with /s but I've actually seen people post this sadly.
You must be talking about that liberal agenda to make communist “15 minute cities!”
Not today, bill gates!!
My local walkable grocery store is a Safeway. They sell a 3lb pack of ground turkey for $18.
Walmart, target, smart and final, and Lucky's are all <$12, but I have to drive. And that's one item. I save hundreds a month in groceries because I have a car and can shop around. I can wait for deals, I can buy in bulk.
The idea of a walkable city is nice, but if you restrict competition, prices skyrocket. And yeah, that Safeway is walkable to an apartment, the only grocery store that is, and they know it. It is infuriating to dismiss practicality for an dream.
Walkable cities and car hate are just another generations NYMBY's. Those rich enough and finantialy secure to afford premiums that push others out. Meanwhile this transitional uncertainty greatly harms many of us struggling to make ends meet.