2y ago

Socialism v. Social Democracy

Hasan is a saint trying his best to make a capitalist understand why capitalism = bad.

He’s not gonna get it, bro. It’s not in his materialist interest.

TBH, Hasan is also not the best debater but every other “socialist” debatebro is a PatSoc chud so I don’t think they’ll do a better job.

He used to be better, but I think because Twitch as a platform allows you to ramble on and on, and you only have to respond to a chat which of course has a much harder time communicating, it worsens your debate skills over time.

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TBH, Hasan is also not the best debater but every other “socialist” debatebro is a PatSoc chud so I don’t think they’ll do a better job.
BadEmpanada is a massive debatebro and, while he certainly has his faults, he's not a patsoc by any means.
- He is very annoying though
  
  That can be a strength tho…
  
  What do people find so annoying about him, other than the debatebro thing? I never really got it.
This is not a debate. This is a podcast between friends.
This episode focused on this topic specifically because they went off the rails last week discussing China and Taiwan. I feel Ethan is actually trying to learn, or could be being adversarial to further the conversation, filling time, or most likely, a combination of these possibilities.
What is the Socratic Method?
- Yea I do think he's trying to learn, but he obviously has some hangups that he just couldn't see beyond. It was frustrating listening to the "equity" sharing portion, I don't think Hasan did a good job explaining that at all (or maybe his view differs more from mine than I thought, idk)
  
  I posted before I finished the whole thing, it was pretty tough to listen to at the end.
I watched most of this live, and while I found much of it very frustrating, I think it was fascinating watching someone like Ethan wrestle with something quite outside his experience.
I'm also quite happy listening to Hasan speak (albeit a little clumsily) about China, Taiwan, and USSR history, since that's something I've recently spent time trying to unpack myself.
As painful as it was to watch, I can honestly say I don't think I've ever seen Hasan speak so plainly about some of the more challenging aspects of international socialist positions and I hope it gets more people involved in learning more.
Hasan is a saint trying his best to make a capitalist understand why capitalism = bad.
He’s not gonna get it, bro. It’s not in his materialist interest.
Hasan has not moved past Utopian Socialism. See Lenin:
When feudalism was overthrown and “free” capitalist society appeared in the world, it at once became apparent that this freedom meant a new system of oppression and exploitation of the working people. Various socialist doctrines immediately emerged as a reflection of and protest against this oppression. Early socialism, however, was utopian socialism. It criticised capitalist society, it condemned and damned it, it dreamed of its destruction, it had visions of a better order and endeavoured to convince the rich of the immorality of exploitation.
But utopian socialism could not indicate the real solution. It could not explain the real nature of wage-slavery under capitalism, it could not reveal the laws of capitalist development, or show what social force is capable of becoming the creator of a new society.
source: https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1913/mar/x01.htm
- No, his criticisms of capitalism are based on materialism and the nature of wage labor, not just “oppression” and “exploitation”, so this criticism doesn’t apply. He doesn’t endeavour to convince capitalists that they’re morally wrong and should stop, he openly talks about how if things don’t change, revolution will be inevitable. It’s pretty basic Marxist stuff.
  At best, it’s like trying to make a class traitor out of Ethan. So, this shows how even the most well-meaning of Libs and SucDems are still capitalists and that class traitors are rarer than Shiny Pokemon, ESPECIALLY IF THEY HAVE A COMPANY THAT EMPLOYS PEOPLE.
All debate streamers should be thrown into a big pit
- I can't tell if you think either of these guys are debate streamers
  
  I thought Hasan did debate stuff. Either way, I stand by my statement
I only know about this because famous "leftist" Destiny and his token friends have been making videos like "HASAN IS A TANKIE. SHILLS CHINA!?"
Keffals has also joined in on this but I've always hated her lmao
- Destiny is so weird to me. I couldn't get a read on him for awhile. I'd see him shitting on right wing chips in one video, and then saying some bullshit in the next. I guess he's just a lib?
  
  He used to have momentum with the online left cause he was pretty decent at dunking on chud dipshits. Later in like 2019 he started to blast leftists (not very well ofc) and went full neolib on pretty much every topic
Clown to-clown Communication
It's been pretty interesting watching the class contradictions become visible in Ethan's ideology as the podcast has become increasingly successful over the last couple of years. For someone who used to often self admit to not caring about money, he sure seems to care about getting the biggest slice of that podcast pie. He assumes that being the original founder entitles him to it.
I still have about 30 minutes to go. It's pretty frustrating hearing Ethan say that he just wants to have a conversation so that he can learn and then immediately debate every point with the typical liberal dogma. How can people feel good about debating toics where they have exactly no understanding of the opposition? He should watch himself debate Ollie London and then this episode back-to-back. It should be crystal clear to anyone that there's a large discrepancy between the quality of these arguments.
I don’t necessarily hate Hasan, but streamer and podcast debates are like congressional debates. They’ll huff and puff in the chambers, then they play baseball together. It’s just a fun competitive sport that rich people do. The rivalry is personal, but ultimately not that serious because everyone gets paid.
Ithun is such a chud

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