You're viewing a single thread.
It speaks to a deeper problem really of women facing barriers to sports.
Pub sports are no different, especially since the domain of drunk old men is one of the least appealing to younger women (creeps and weirdos galore).
So you get a lesser pool of women's players. Therefore they're less likely to win. Therefore they get put in their own bracket. Therefore they get paid less in that bracket. Therefore the pay of their top players is a pittance. Therefore they can't fully devote their life toward it. Therefore they're less likely to win. Repeat cycle.
Anyway, if you've grown up as a man, you've probably been allowed to pursue these male dominated sports pretty unhindered. Sure, you might've been an egg the whole time, but outwardly the men weren't hostile to you, or creepy, or doubting. You've got to a level where you're playing against elite players.
Then you come out as trans. The experience you accumulated as a man will serve you well. It is experience afforded far less easily to women.
Technically, women could just 'get good' and miraculously ignore those barriers. If that was so simple, there'd be far more female players and winners. But it isn't that simple, and in some sense trans players can hold advantages over cisgender women.
I'm not calling for segregation, but I do have some sympathy for the women's player. The great shame of it all is that her views have been moulded by society to blame trans people for this, rather than blaming men and sporting associations.
This whole explanation varies sport to sport, of course.
EDIT: Take this all with a grain of salt. The data is simply not out there. I speak mostly from anecdote as someone who has played and been involved in thousands of hours of sport. As I've said, I do not think there should be any trans segregation in precision sports. Here's an interesting interview from a trans snooker champion: https://metro.co.uk/2022/09/04/jamie-hunter-if-i-didnt-transition-i-would-be-dead-it-had-nothing-to-do-with-snooker-17295875/ They transitioned around the age of 22, and won a championship at 25.
you keep saying 'women' in this comment when referring to cis women, which is the main issue here - it's not like trans women are winning and then secretly going 'yes, another victory for men', but rather it's cis women who are not seeing trans women as part of the same team. So what if some trans women get socialised in such a way that they have an advantage in pool? The only reason this is an issue is if you fundamentally see a victory for trans women as a loss for cis women. The fact this is being shown as oppositional (and being played as such) is the major issue here - if a cis woman had gone through the same experiences, and had the same advantages, would she also be considered an unfair competitor?
Permanently Deleted
if we're going down that path, shouldn't we separate anybody who has had a parent who played pool from people with parents who didn't play? And then shouldn't we separate those based on who owned a pool table at home from those who didn't? At what point are we drawing the line, if 'might have had a Dad who pressured them into sports' is an acceptable metric? Not to mention that basing your opinion on 'tropes' is how this discussion was started - people who's only experience is seeing 'Men In Dresses' tropes on TV and then developing their opinions on trans people's right to equal participation in society from that.
That is exactly my thoughts on the matter. There are many potential advantages some women will have over other women. Same with any other catagory of competitors, unless we just put everyone into an open category. But I don't think that's going to help the woman in the post.
You are quite clearly being reductive of my argument. You latched onto my anecdote, which was given with a disclaimer, and in addition to "a cis woman can't have gone through the same experience and socialisation that a cis man has, or even a cis man who later transitioned. It's impossible to ignore the way society treats you in your formative years, and the opportunities that are allowed or encouraged to you based on your assigned gender at birth."
To deny this point is to dismiss the entirety of sociological gender studies. Look at how differently men and women act day to day. There are absolutely enormous social pressures applied to people based purely on their assigned gender at birth. Cisgender men, even if they later transition, have vastly different experiences to cisgender women. It is simply irrefutable.
I'm sorry you feel I'm being reductive, but that's honestly how this is coming off. I'm not denying socialogical differences, and of course different lives lead to different outcomes - I am cautioning against painting every AMAB person with that brush as a way of excluding all of them from participation. Again, I'm asking you to be careful cos this is getting close to saying there are just unsolvable differences that can never be overcome, but ONLY when it comes to trans people.
Permanently Deleted
We have data. The Olympics have been open to trans athletes for decades and trans women have simply not dominated. They've done disproportionately badly, actually. A trans swimmer won one (1) non-Olympic race last year and it caused a major media shitstorm, and that should be proof enough that it's a rare occurrence.
Also just be careful with the "socialization" shit. And be careful assuming our experiences. Like re: the other part of this thread, I faced significant sexual harassment as an egg throughout high school. Because people might not have known my specific deal and god knows I didn't, but people could tell something was going on with me. This is a common experience for eggs. There is no one "male socialization" for a number of reasons, but even within that wide range I really don't feel I got it.
Permanently Deleted
This is coming up with a conclusion and then searching for post hoc evidence. It's assuming we MUST have an advantage but just changing your idea of why based on your audience. And it's sounding the alarm the moment a trans athlete wins, as if it'll only be ok for us to compete if we never do well.
As to your experience, I'm sorry to hear that you experienced sexual harassment and that I erased it. Queer men do face disproportionately high levels of sexual harassment, but I still think it's of a different nature than what straight/bi/lesbian cis women receive from straight men.
Holy shit fuck OFF
yeah you should honestly cut your fingers off instead of posting shit like this ever again
you're in the neighborhood of the inescapable ableism of having any kind of competition at all. there's been some academic discourse about it but i forget who or what specific sub-field.
Anyway, if you've grown up as a man, you've probably been allowed to pursue these male dominated sports pretty unhindered. Sure, you might've been an egg the whole time, but outwardly the men weren't hostile to you, or creepy, or doubting.
This erases the gendered harassment eggs face and is pretty offensive, comrade.
How? My understanding is that an egg is someone who hasn't realised that they're trans yet? What gendered harassment does a male who is at that point cis get?
After transitioning, for sure, being a trans sport player must be incredibly difficult. The abuse you recieve just for winning could definitely put you at a disadvantage.
it's not an on-off switch, and you would be surprised at the amount of people who pick up on 'queer' vibes before you yourself have picked up on it harass you accordingly
I couldn't say which is worse, having experienced neither and only witnessed the former, but my intuition is that there are significant differences in the way that creates a barrier, compared to what a cis woman might face. A big part of that is probably sexual harassment and such.
I think you have to be careful here - you have experienced neither but you have opinions on the lived experiences of the very people you are talking about, based on intuition. Not to come across as too toxic, but perhaps take a note from your username's namesake and ask if you have investigated a problem, and whether therefore it is something you should be speculating so much on
Permanently Deleted
There's not a lot else I can do to learn more but discuss it.
or rather, maybe read and consider the words people are writing before writing a defensive reply. some of the replies from trans users you're getting are from people who have played 50 hours of sports in the last month much less their whole life.
And yet, I have gained a deeper understanding by discussing it in this thread than I would have if I just watched from the sideline. People wouldn't have even been replying in the first place to talk about these issues if I hadn't have said anything in the first place.
If anyone wants to speak to their experience of being a trans player in sports, I wish they would, but for the large population of trans people on the site, I rarely see anyone speaking from personal anecdote when it comes to sports. Much less so sports at a high level. I've had people speak of their experience at school, and growing up, and so on, but not of any actual sports experience.
Permanently Deleted
No. It doesn't have to be elite like that. The disparity between men and women's inclusion, coaching and opportunities has a massive disparity from very young ages, and the further you get away from countries with money the worse that disparity gets. I don't think people understand how difficult women's sports teams find it to get sponsors and funding.
Make your examples a bit less ridiculous - someone's who's played American football at a high collegiate level and then transitioned would have years of game experience at a far higher game standard. Schools put a stupid amount of money and scholarships into their American football squads. It's not just game experience either, it's a game being played at a much faster speed, against bigger players, with longer kicks and passes. Then you move to the women's game. You don't retain your physical advantages, but you do retain all of that.
I watch women's rugby sometimes and it is simply so much slower. The fundamentals of passing are somehow just not there. Tackling - of course they're not going to make monster hits but you see so many times where you wonder if they actually want to make that tackle? If their mentality is truly there to make that hit? It's not because women can't - many of the players do - it's because in many cases the men have 7+ years of experience (men start playing contact at age 8, women started at age 16 until recently) and there's so many ex pros out there by now that you might have even come into contact with one as a coach. I've had lots of coaches that have played at international level and then retired to continue doing what they love. Some coach the womens game, but since it's not as well paid most of them just stick to men's clubs. Women on the other hand don't even have a fully professionalised game yet, so you're never going to get a coach that's actually experienced the game at a very high level. I have literally hung out with the ex captain of England's national women's team, I used to be friends with women who have gone on to represent their country in the modern era of sport. I have talked to these people and they have iterated time and time again how frustrating it is that women's sport is such an uphill battle.
Like, no offense but you're imagining these big name players because you don't know the ins and outs of the sports industry.
And yet, I have gained a deeper understanding by discussing it in this thread than I would have if I just watched from the sideline.
bro half your comments have been removed by the mods or yourself for transphobia. jesus christ.
if the only way you can learn about the plight of the marginalized is to rile a bunch of us up, maybe just don't. and maybe consider that a lot of us don't talk about sports in non-queer spaces because it tends to bring a bunch of replies like yours here, and that's unpleasant. hell in my fucking queer rec leagues I've had to wade through it.
My understanding
is clearly quite poor when it comes to the experiences of trans people. maybe listen to us more and talk about us less.
Permanently Deleted
Permanently Deleted
integration of sports was a mainstream feminist position back when that label actually meant something. now that we've just collectively accepted that women can never be equal to men, the only solution is individual striving and a narrow politics of representation.
What do you mean by integration?
one combined league, everyone plays everyone instead of men playing men and women playing women
Permanently Deleted
Im sure in a better world there are ways to do this other than segregation or that, weight classes etc
you could do weight classes by lean body mass for some things. running events should probably have had height-classes (or you know, leg length) the entire time although i'm not sure anyone has ever normalized track or marathon times for runner height. All top atheletes are genetic freaks and not normal anyway regardless of gender.
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
Yeah I don't really see how this would play out in sports like Athletics or wrestling, even with weight classes. People thinking a mixed rugby team wouldn't result in severe injuries and possible deaths for the female athletes are kidding themselves.
Yeah this is true but also the pool of trans women playing professional pool has got to be real real small, yeah? Are there any sports where trans women are overrepresented for their gender?
For sure. I don't know about that second one, but probably not. What difference does that make? (not trying to be harsh - but I'm struggling to follow that to a conclusion)
The experience you accumulated as a man will serve you well. It is experience afforded far less easily to women.
Is this an actual valuable thing though? The "experience" here I mean. If there is one horrible thing perpetuated by that "10,000h makes you an expert" urban legend is that not only that was for music(piano) but one specific point is that bad practice will make you worse.
Essentially you'll never just bullshit around for 10,000 hours and become a world renowned expert, instead it only means through consistent and thoughtful practice, that is the ballpark time investment required.
In any case if one wanted to talk about natural learning that is just the domain of children anyway, even teenagers and certainly any adult can't just learn through just experience.
So I don't want to contest your comment entirely, but I want to make it clear its not that simple at all, shitty experiences and bad practice affords you no actual real advantage at all over someone that spent less time but more productive, focused time.
If the hypothetical trans woman in this scenario got to the point where she's competing against elite men then I think she's been getting "good" practice, yeah
Permanently Deleted
Shitty practce is part of this scenario. Women get put in the women's league with other women. As a cohort they aren't paid as much, and the player pool is smaller, so the overall quality isn't as high. Then they play against each other, and there you have it, 10k hours playing against people who aren't posing the same challenges that a men's league would. The experience isn't even necessarily hours spent, it's getting into the sport and staying with the sport in the first place, then playing against players who know all the tricks, and then learning how to counter them or play them yourself. On top of that, if your league gives out more money, then you can get professional mentor/coach.
This makes sense yeah, I was thinking on the amateur literal bullshitter scenario though, person who plays pool once week for 2h isn't "practicing". But on the other hand if you're at a point you're committed to actualy playing and even join a league then yes its different I agree.
At school I remember the boys could play a game of touch rugby (a bit like flag football) against the girls team, and pretty much walk past them using passing and schoolyard tricks. It wasn't a strength or speed thing. It was that the boys had all been playing around with a rugby ball since they were 8 years old, while most of the girls had only started playing at the age of 15-16. The boys were essentially fluent in rugby. The girls could run all the training drills they wanted - drills can't teach you the game psychology that thousands of hours of game time can. Even if they played every day, it could take them years to catch up. It's different for pool as it's arguably less nuanced than a team game, but still, comparisons can be made.
Ok I'll rephrase it, the specific reason I mentioned the 10k hour myth is this scenario:
Person that thinks they'll have an "advantage" learning to play piano as an adult because they had like 1 lesson a week for 2h during for a couple of years back in highschool or whatever. Unless you actualy reached a profficient level before that it is almost negligible or we can pretend it is. That versus an adult complete beginner age 25-35.
The first person will have an advantage maybe for a the very basic stuff(again assuming the first person didn't actually achieve anything, its why I said "BS around") that takes maybe a few dozen hours to catch up, it would make no actual meaningful difference towards becoming a pro.
The biggest sin of the 10k myth is bad practice e.g just repeating and playing the same song over and over. It wont make you better no matter how much you do it. Worse than that without an actual teacher we often just keep practicing bad habits and mistakes become even harder to fix compared to a complete beginner.
This is what that 10k hour myth was all about. People in general tend to behave as if just "doing it" is good enough and end up making exaggerated goals and expectations, but also neglecting the need for real teachers and a real planned and effective practice method/schedule.
Your example is a good point because there is no "wrong way" to play that game, everything they did was useful and a learning experience. This is not true for some other sports and definitely not true for a lot of hobbies etc. You can and most people indeed do spend a lot of time doing stuff that doesn't improve their skill. I think a blanket statement of "I spent X hours doing Y before therefore I have an advantage" is possibly disingenuous without clarification, like what did you actually do with that time?
Consider the following: no one should devote their entire life to pool. It's an asinine waste of resources
Lol, a semi-uncharitable reading of your comment would just be "don't have hobbies, or fun".
Why not devote your life to pool, or any other sport? Seems a lot less of a waste than, like, golf.
how? Golf and pool are at the same level, not skills which apply to other areas, not useful to society, and not in this case creating community. Pool can be a hobby, but a complaint that anyone can't make a living off of it is absurd.
One giant difference between pool and golf (I'm putting off work by posting to hexbear and now you have to suffer my nitpicking, I'm so sorry) is that golf is a massive waste of water and land, water and land that could be a dope ass park or wildlife preserve or literally anything other than a golf course. But pool is just an overly expensive (and heavy) table, a few balls, and a couple of sticks.
Pool is way better than golf, is what I'm saying.
That's fair and I agree with it, but in terms of career path they are identical.
You shouldn’t have professional hobbies according to Marxist theory, luxuries are bad.
This is a great comment. Explaining the material causes of a problem makes it make more sense.
I hope you get to the top comment bc everybody else is about to lit a fire at her feet. You're right imho and she deserves more.
Permanently Deleted
in that time there were very few trans medallists. Therefore, no need to make changes.
wait so if trans people win at things they need to be excluded? got it
We're allowed to compete but not to win, and we should be grateful for that privilege
Permanently Deleted
I'm so glad that the cis arrived to tell me that my experience in men's locker rooms was actually fostering my growth as an athlete and not in any way gender violence that would push people out of sports. I felt so coddled and supported in my athletic pursuits
It must just be a coincidence that this Just Asking Questions shit in this thread leads to the same conclusion that virulent transphobes reach
(Fr though this guy assured my that the sexual harassment I faced as an egg was definitely not as bad as a woman would face and I want him to fuck off and die)
fr I tried to gently correct at first and dude just kept rolling