Priorities

👆 how to say you're a brainwashed idiot without saying you're a brainwashed idiot

Great point!
- Why do you expect every single commenter to come at you with a bunch of sources and a well-prepared response, when you don’t give the same?
  
  Here's the thing... I can automatically discredit everything you say because the stance you're taking. If you're going to simp for something, it's impossible to have a rational discussion.
  
  You love China. I hate the US. I just hate China even more.
  
  I can automatically discredit everything you say
  
  Well obviously that's always on the table, but why come here then?
  
  it’s impossible to have a rational discussion.
  
  I just hate China even more.
  
  Hmmm, makes sense why you can't have a rational discussion then... but then why come here? To troll us? Certainly, you're aware an explicitly pro-AES instance isn't going to be Sinophobic.
  
  Also, I find it funny your cope is that I "love China" because of the CPC bot thing, but maybe you unironically think I'm actually a CPC bot.
  
  Edit: @cheese_weiner@lemm.ee, you’ve been banned from Lemmygrad for trolling, but I was curious if you might have responded and saw you commented.
  
  Your response is laughably easy, so I’ll give an easy answer: China still has billionaires and income inequality. In an ideal world, that wouldn’t be there.

But the US beats the hell out of China any day of the week.

It's true, the US beats the hell out of China in school shootings, and medical debt, racially targeted police brutality, bombing foreign countries, and number of homeless people, and... Oh I could do this for days.

Number of people in prison both as a percent of population and in sheer numbers...
- US definitely has a prison problem. Definitely not acting like it's perfect.
  
  But that makes China okay how? Do you even believe the numbers they spread? Covid is a great example of how reliable Chinese figures are.
  
  COVID deaths had some degree of undercounting everywhere. Let’s do the global comparison, shall we? Here’s the ratio of estimated deaths (using figures like excess mortality rate) to report deaths globally:
  
  Source: Figure 2 from https://www.healthdata.org/research-analysis/diseases-injuries/covid/estimation-total-and-excess-mortality-due-covid-19
At least I don't have a government score rating my contributions to a central power. China is a dystopia.
- The U.S. has FICO credit score; it’s the same thing

Listen cheese dick, you want us to send you some research projects so you can deprogram your brain from all the garbage Western propaganda has given you, or do you just want to be mocked and ridiculed?

Please do not insult cheesy phalluses by associating them with these kinds of people.
- Maybe I misinterpreted the username. Perhaps I should have said cheesy meat tube
  
  Oh shit I didn't even notice. Haha Carry on comrade.
Deprogram me. Let's see it.

Just remember I'm also being "deprogrammed" by the flat earth and anti-vaccine movements as well.

Taiwan. Hong Kong.

Hawaii. Puerto Rico.

Massacre

That's not an accurate interpretation of the event at all. Please do some research. I'll give you a link to one of our threads on this to get you started: https://lemmygrad.ml/post/1240721

Copium. They sent literal tanks. Why? Why do you need tanks to handle a peaceful protest?
- Because it was not a "peaceful protest". Have you even read the sources provided? The CIA funded "peaceful protesters" attacked and brutally murdered unarmed police sent to keep the peace. The leaders of the protests are on video saying they hoped to provoke a massacre in order to create enough outrage that people would topple the government of the CPC.
- It wasn’t a peaceful protest. Please educate yourself first:
  
  https://nitter.net/prolewiki/status/1666492127730098208

Taiwan. Hong Kong.

What point are you even trying to make here by just saying names of places that are part of China?

The point I'm making is that they're independent territories not owned by China. China continues to censor and murder in attempts to gain more territory. Taiwan is still a sovereign country. Claiming it's not is just factually wrong.
- Neither Hong Kong nor Taiwan are independent states. The UN only recognizes one China which is the PRC and Taiwan is part of it: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_Resolution_2758
  
  It looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, quacks like a duck... Well it might be a duck.
  
  I understand definitions are incredibly important for both US and China. According to US and Taiwan, it's a sovereign country. According to China and UN, it's part of China. I would be willing to concede at "It's complicated."
  
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_status_of_Taiwan
  
  I think the Taiwan Strait is further evidence of the "It's complicated" argument.
  
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_Strait
  
  According to both the US government and the authorities on Taiwan, Taiwan is a part of China.
  
  The illegitimate regime in Taipei by its own constitution still claims itself to be the legitimate government of all of China. No one recognizes Taiwan as an independent state.
  
  The US officially recognizes the One China Policy. This is the fundamental basis for any diplomatic relations with China. There is no "Taiwan embassy" in the US. The US constantly affirms to China that it does not support "Taiwan independence".
  
  (Also, it doesn't matter what the US thinks about this anyway, the only opinion that matters is that of the Chinese people, including but not limited to the people in China's province of Taiwan)
  
  There is nothing complicated about this. The Taiwan issue is an internal matter for China to resolve. Outside forces have no right to interfere.
  
  Also, i like how you backed off from your claim that Hong Kong is an independent country. Do you admit your ignorance on this issue or are you just trying to sweep an embarrassing mistake under the rug?
  
  By my count you have yet to acknowledge you were either ignorant or lying when you claimed the following things:
  
  that Hong Kong is an independent territory
  
  that Taiwan is a sovereign country
  
  that the US and Taiwan do not recognize Taiwan as part of China
  
  Are you going to admit you were mistaken or will you try to pretend you never said these things after being proven wrong?

Do y'all ever have anything more recent than 1989 in these comparisons? How many people has China bombed in those years versus what the US has done? I remember a ridiculous BBC article claiming the PLA killed 10,000 people at Tiananmen square.

Yeah that would be bad, but the lowest numbers for the Iraq War I've seen have been over 1,000,000 dead. And that's just one war the US has committed in the past 34 years

Fair point. US has definitely killed more non-US citizens than China has killed non-China citizens. I can't honestly pretend the US foreign policy is righteous or even sustainable.
- The US has killed more people than China in general, as in it's not an even close to comparison. It's like comparing a scraped knee to bullet in the chest. I wouldn't be surprised if America has killed 10, 20, 50 times more people in the past 40 years.

insulting at best.

If nothing else, I'm glad you feel insulted

Mission accomplished?

dawg listing those three things in the face of shit like Vietnam / Iraq / Afghanistan / Israel is so fucking funny like how do you dipshits not realize how out of proportion that shit is even if we were to go full CIA history on China. You have so little awareness of actual Chinese history that you end up supporting the loser slave holding fascists of the Chinese civil war lmao.

Go read something like Killing Hope and maybe you can avoid moments like this in the future. One of the first chapters is about how the US participated in the Chinese civil war. On the slave holder side of course. The KMT, after it became clear that they were still going to lose even with US support then fled to and established what we now call Taiwan, massacred the indigenous population, and now get the support of clueless libs like yourself who somehow think they are standing for human rights or some shit.

Lots of assumptions in that comment.

For fun and enrichment I recommend you go read "How to Hide an Empire" by Daniel Immarwahr.

I'm aware the US isn't a bright, beaming light of righteousness and good-doing. It's a corrupt and evil fuck fest. But it's a billion times better than China.
- A billion times? How did you come up with that?
- But it's a billion times better than China
  
  The exact opposite is actually the case.

Western journalists on the ground claimed that they saw no bodies or blood in Tiananmen Square minutes after the supposed massacre. I'm sure you have a good explanation for that as well?

The Chinese government never denied that people died that night, but they denied the circumstances described by Western media. It's telling that the perspective told by some student leaders and protestors was not corroborated by Western journalists on the ground. It's even more telling that those same perspectives were not corroborated by other student leaders. Being precise is important. It's just as important when talking about Tiananmen Square as it is when talking about current events in Gaza, for its undeniable that people died and providing an accurate story of what happened is essential for preserving the value of the truth and not allowing the truth to be diminished. Don't tarnish their story by making up bullshit that generates more clicks and more outrage.

It is now considered unlikely than anyone was actually killed in Tiananmen Square itself. But people on the streets of Beijing spread their impression -- inaccurate but fully understandable -- that Tiananmen Square had been washed in the blood of thousands of innocent students.

But we saw no bodies, injured people, ambulances or medical personnel — in short, nothing to even suggest, let alone prove, that a "massacre" had recently occurred in that place.

I was one of the foreign journalists who witnessed the events that night. We got the story generally right, but on one detail I and others conveyed the wrong impression. There was no massacre on Tiananmen Square.

I don’t remember seeing the students leave the monument, although they did — filing off to the south as a result of an agreement with the PLA commanders while the tanks and troops entered the square from the north. But I remember clearly watching the tanks and armored cars move in orderly columns down the square, riding over the tents and the debris. It was later said by some that they bulldozed through sleeping students, but I don’t believe it. No one could still have been asleep in those tents after that night.

ALTHOUGH GUNFIRE COULD BE HEARD, GALLO SAID THAT APART FROM SOME BEATING OF STUDENTS, THERE WAS NO MASS FIRING INTO THE CROWD OF STUDENTS AT THE MONUMENT. WHEN POLOFF MENTIONED SOME REPORTEDLY EYEWITNESS ACCOUNTS OF MASSACRES AT THE MONUMENT WITH AUTOMATIC WEAPONS, GALLO SAID THAT THERE WAS NO SUCH SLAUGHTER. ONCE AGREEMENT WAS REACHED FOR THE STUDENTS TO WITHDRAW, LINKING HANDS TO FORM A COLUMN, THE STUDENTS LEFT THE SQUARE THROUGH THE SOUTHEAST CORNER. ESSENTIALLY EVERYONE, INCLUDING GALLO, LEFT. THE FEW THAT ATTEMPTED TO REMAIN BEHIND WERE BEATEN AND DRIVEN TO JOIN THE END OF THE DEPARTING PROCESSION. ONCE OUTSIDE THE SQUARE, THE STUDENTS HEADED WEST ON QIANMEN DAJIE WHILE GALLO HEADED EAST TO HIS CAR. THEREFORE, HE COULD NOT COMMENT ON REPORTS THAT STUDENTS WERE AMBUSHED AND SLAUGHTERED IN THE ALLEY JUST WEST OF THE SQUARE NEAR THE BEIJING CONCERT HALL.

The facts tell us that soldiers died in riots before June 4th and that civilians died by gunfire on June 4th. The eyewitness accounts by journalists tell us that it's unlikely that many (if any) people died on Tiananmen Square. The full video of "tank man" shows that the tanks stopped for him and that he was dragged away by other protestors (and certainly wasn't run over by a tank on video).

Specifics are important. I'm not telling you to fully believe the official Chinese government statement on the issue. I don't. In fact, I struggle to think of any official government statement that I'm willing to believe without question. I'm simply telling you to look at facts, to look at video evidence, to look at unbiased third-parties, and to ask yourself what narrative makes the most sense. Then, maybe you'll consider what drew you to your previous conclusion.

An additional point, part of why I never tend to believe what any government claims prima facie is due to the selective nature and sort of lie by omission by such statements. I find such statements not to be false per se, but overwhelmingly lacking and unsatisfying. Much of what they say on first thought is true, but the details are left out and those are the juicy bits I tend to want to know most.
Now THAT'S a lot of copium. There were tanks there. Why bring tanks to peaceful protest?
- See my comment to your identical comment
- Read the sources. It was not a "peaceful protest".

https://dessalines.github.io/essays/socialism_faq.html#on-mao-maoism-and-marxism-leninism-maoism-and-the-prc

Civilians died because of you mindless crackers, and it was the heroic police that stopped the murders and riots at the Beijing square.

I gotta say I laughed at a lot of responses. But this was my favorite.
- It’s pretty accurate though, but you refuse to look, huh?
  
  Dude I've seen it. The holocaust was also the CIA, right? And every other atrocity on the other side of the Atlantic. Right?
  
  holocaust was also the CIA, right?
  
  Yes, obviously the CIA did it even though they didn't even exist /s
  
  In seriousness though, you do know the Nazis took massive inspiration from the US, and actually thought the US went too far with the one-drop rule, right?
  
  As for the rest, I obviously can't comment on "every other atrocity" but are you really suggesting the US has zero influence on world affairs in the 20th and 21st century?