Christopher Nolan Calls Zack Snyder’s ‘Watchmen’ a Film ‘Ahead of Its Time’: It Should Have Been Released Post-‘Avengers’
Christopher Nolan Calls Zack Snyder’s ‘Watchmen’ a Film ‘Ahead of Its Time’: It Should Have Been Released Post-‘Avengers’
Maybe a controversial take.. I like Snyder's ending better than the book.
Ozymandius tricking Dr Manhattan into building a bomb that blows up NYC is a lot more grounded in possibility that a giant psychic squid.
They’re both products of their times. The squid made sense in a time where comic books weren’t as grounded as they are today.
Also a squid makes more sense when you actually foreshadow a squid. The movie would have had to shoehorn that in through the plot and that would have been a mess.
It was cleaner. Different medium, different capabilities.
Have you watched the HBO show? The squid totally works.
I want more of that HBO show. I hope they can do more storylines from that timeline.
Still heavily contrived against a much cleaner approach. It works, but the Manhattan line was better.
The whole Dr Manhattan plan could've blown up at his face though if he took it personally and killed everyone.
I do kind of like the squid ending because it's supposed to be something completely unexpected and unbelievable that governments would actually believe it's an alien. They could've foreshadowed it a bit better but I like the weirdness of it.
I like the TV show fleshing out the squid thing more. I think the movie ending was fine for the time though.
I remember recommending the movie to people and being told "you should have warned me there was blue penis" by one person. And then he went on to say "blue penis" at random times when he saw me. I don't know how he would have reacted if there was a giant alien psychic squid attack
The ending works a lot better, agreed. But most of the beginning and middle bits change the tone/framing/emphasis/etc to give the exact opposite meaning to what was originally intended. Biggest example I can think of is the opening battle between the Comedian and Ozymandias the mysterious assassin; in the graphic novel that fight is framed as a dying, bitter alcoholic well past his prime getting absolutely bodied in an unceremonious and fitting end to a despicable man. In the film, sure he loses in the end but it's a much closer fight and he goes out in a blaze of glory, defiant to the end, quite literally a hero's last stand. Snyder also does his best to make Rorschach look as cool as possible (while still being grungy and uncouth) instead of how he is in the graphic novel: psychotic, extremely antisocial, and borderline fascist. Again, the change to the ending was a good choice, but there were many other choices made that I personally completely disagree with
Fully agree! the show undoes some of the damage (but brings back the squid)
The ending was equally fine as the book, the main issue I have is that in the book, the only real super powered person was Dr. Manhattan.
A lot of things don't make a ton of sense having all the heroes have super strength and durability.
It was the style at the time. Even Asimov got into psychic phenomena for Childhood's End.
Compare the 90s obsession with cryogenics, or every stupid variation on "10% of your brain."
Not controversial at all, it works and plays better.
It's just the rest of his changes that are a problem.
I've wondered what the reception to Starship Troopers would have been if it was released 10 years later in 2007, as the US was bogged down in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Instead it was released during the era of dumb action movies and was treated as such.
I was way too young and credulous to understand what starship troopers was doing. Other than feeling a little bad for the alien worm at the end i just watched it like an action movie.
Now that I'm a more experienced adult, it is overt in its commentary to the point it's hard to believe i missed or the first time.
I use this lesson for myself when i find it hard to believe other people cannot see the propaganda that we are immersed in daily, or get a different message from a piece of media.
After all, I missed it too. I watched the same movie at two points in my life and saw two very different things. I think about that alot
To me the thing that made me go "how did I miss that" was a one armed man proudly proclaiming "the Army made me into the man I am today"
I use this lesson for myself when i find it hard to believe other people cannot see the propaganda that we are immersed in daily, or get a different message from a piece of media.
This is a very good take away from that experience. One of the worst things to assume is that you are any different.
I'm sure the alot thinks about you too, sometimes. 🤗
Paul Verhoeven is such a mixed bag. You get inspired trash like Robocop and Starship Troopers together with actual trash like Showgirls and Hollow Man.
But I don't agree that the timing would have made much of a difference. If anybody took more notice of the movie, it'd be the chuds who mistake the lampooning of fascism as glorification. I've been quoted Rasczak's class lecture about force and democracy unironically more than once.
A friend of mine screens tender matches by asking potential dates about Starship Troopers or Fight Club. It's hilarious bc the chuds think she's chill af right up till she unmatches.
He made a movie about fascism when no one was taking about fascism or eternal wars or anything like that. This was the blissful period between the end of the cold war and the start of the war on terrorism. It was the time of kick back, turn your brain off, and watch Arnold blow shit up. Watch aliens blow up the Whitehouse. Starship Troopers completely mismatched the time.
There’s a book by John Steakley called Armor that reminds me a lot of Starship Troopers and really captures the feel of an embattled military operation.
Armor
I'm wondering if I read this. There are two points that I remember. First they were going through whatever device to another world and he gets a bad feeling and against protocol he readies his weapon before he goes through. And thus is one of the only survivors. The second part I remember is him or another person got snuck up on by one of the insects, and someone was bugging them imitating how a huge insect would sneak up on someone. Is that the book?
To reach out to the modern people, I really think that we need to move away from books. Attention spans are getting a shorter, and who the fuck has the time to read a book? I think we need media to update themselves for the times if they want to message to reach the largest audience possible
True, Zack Snyder was failing to understand comics long before Disney was.
Mystery Men has entered the chat...
the performances in that film are fantastic.. actors don't get enough credit for the work they do in silly films like this one, because Kinnear is great, Stiller is great, Geoffrey Rush is hilarious, Garofalo is awesome, Macy is obviously great, they're all awesome..
Say 'junk it' ONE MORE TIME!
"Two hands there, son."
Don't forget about Mystery Team.
Just rewatched this. Still holds up!
😂👌🏻what a gem
I shovel very well
I keep telling people to watch the HBO show from 2019. It has some obvious flaws but Regina King is always fire and IMO episode 6 is still some of the best TV I've seen.
It also came out the year before the BLM protests of 2020 and damn was the subject matter relevant. Almost prescient.
My wife and I had never heard of the Tulsa Race Massacre at the time. We were debating whether it was in poor taste to write such a disturbing/racist/violent event in fiction. Then we actually looked it up and realized how we had been failed by our grade school educations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_massacre
Great show, but as a Tulsan the show was hard to watch because it's a nice city now, but still with some racial tensions. The Tulsa Race Riots were depicted pretty fairly; it was an absolutely heinous event in American history that gets little attention even here.
It was honestly mind blowing to learn that most white Americans legit didn't know what the US was like in the 1900s.
That realization played a large part in me investigating how white Americans basically lied themselves into believing the US gov/white Americans made amends for their crimes towards blacks during the period called Reconstruction - in reality, most gains black Americans made after the civil war (e.g. the surge in black politicians, the ability to get educated/start schools, etc.) were immediately taken away by means of terrorism, disenfranchisement, and bs legislation.
The movie/doc Exterminate All The Brutes does a great job detailing the stories Americans used to tell about themselves and how they had to deal with savage natives/tribes and whatnot. It's hard to watch but it really shows how we've all been victims of very effective propaganda. I mean, we literally recite a pledge of allegiance as children. The bs goes deep.
It's a good show but it feels like it has barely anything to do with Watchmen. The main villain was so weak compared to what the comic was going for, and the main character is a raging asshole while the show acts like we're supposed to be sympathetic to her.
Yeah, literally everyone who liked the HBO series went in skeptical that they would even attempt such a thing. It’s so good though.
Watchman is a franchise with an intense blessing when so many seem cursed. The movie was made by someone who didn't understand the comic at all and it turned out fantastically, despite that. Easily the best Snyder product, and I do generally like his goofy ass.
Then, over a decade later, it has a weird HBO TV show, made by the creator/writer of Lost, someone who did at least understand very well the comics. But someone with a controversial track record, and making a show entirely out of original material. And it SLAPS. I tend to market it as "what if lost was rated R, 1 season long, and perfect". Still got my fingers crossed for another season, but it doesn't need it at all.
The Leftovers was also great. Lost had an eh ending, but I wish I could watch Watchmen, The Leftovers, and Lost all over again for the first time. I'm definitely a Lindelof fan.
I found that show by accident and decided to watch. WOW. It was great.
Too bad there’s only one season, but oh well. It works if you think of it as a miniseries.
I like that the series came out when the Doomsday Clock comic came out. They both feature a different continuation of Doctor Manhattan's story.
But it would be derivative if released nowdays. A part of its appeal was that it was something different in a sea of the same.
There's an incredible irony here too. Watchmen the comic was released after years of superhero comics had played out the tropes to exhaustion. Watchmen was a critique of that comics industry. So to say that it belongs in a post-Endgame world is to acknowledge that the movie adaptation is now working as pre-satire of what superhero movies would become.
But this is why things like The Boys and Invincible are doing so well right. They parody the super hero movie tropes, as well as modern day life and media. The Watchmen movie as it exists was just fine for what it was, but instead of dark parody, like its source material, it went full-on blockbuster superhero. If it was released today and done well, I think it would be a hit
It just goes to show how far ahead of the cultural curve comic book authors/artists can be.
I'm waiting for Alan Moore's Promethea to gain traction, but that'll mean the majority of people are ready go to movies that speculate on how to go about becoming enlightened...so I'm not holding my breath.
No Batman paved the way for superhero movies! No Avengers paved the way for superhero movies! No Christopher Reeve as Superman paved the way for superhero movies!
This confirms my sneaking suspicion that Nolan is as terrible a director as Snyder. Cineaste credentials... revoked!
Don't get me even started on how WB fucked over the Snyderverse. Fuck WB, lost all interest in DC movies because of their constant meddling.
You can just tell in every movie the directors wanted to make something great but studios held them back at every turn. Want to do something daring? Nope, put them on a leash and make it boring
A lot of earlier geek fandom movies were released ahead of its time. Scott Pilgrim vs. The World came out in 2010 and didn't find its audience, if it had released 5 years later it would've been a smash hit.
I’d put Spawn in this category as well. While not without its issues I think it captures the spirit of the comic fairly well and is still worth a watch even 20-some years later. I still have no idea how Michael Jai White didn’t become a bigger action star…
The Spawn movie was huge when it was fresh. The demand for McFarlane toys and the industry it spawned speaks for itself. I'd say that without it coming out at the time, comic book movies might not have been made in the 2000's
Because they cut this scene from Kill Bill. Par II
https://youtu.be/oL1vfdVS_UA
[also, there's a ridiculous number of Michaels involved in QT's movies; Michael Parks, Michael Madsen...
I think it released at the perfect time as this was the era of 90s action heroes. The problem was they leaned so heavily on bad CGI that it aged super fast.
I remember really liking the HBO cartoon but hating the movie when it came out.
SPVTW has long been among my favourite movies of all time. And I remember when it released my best friend said it was a bunch of "hipster bullshit"
Other examples could be Mystery Men and Dredd. Great movies, didn't land, feel topical now.
Dredd's problem was it was marketed as "Dredd 3D" in 2012. Three years after Avatar when every movie had a 3d version and only trash movies like Piranha 3DD were still advertising it in their titles.