What are your thoughts on this meme? WOMEN ONLY COMMUNITY MEN PLEASE DO NOT COMMENT
WOMEN ONLY COMMUNITY MEN PLEASE DO NOT COMMENT
I totally get the joke, and Pedro can only be a good thing (huge fan, pray daily that he adopts me). But I do understand why some men would find it insulting. What's your thoughts?
Lesbian here, so maybe not the target audience for this. However this kind of meme and discourse makes me somewhat uncomfortable. Like, really? Pedro Pascal is -the only nice guy- in the world, every other guy is trash? Too often I hear women speak about men as if they're inherently bad people, rather than victims of the patriarchy just like them. It reeks of "that's just the way men are" and "boys will be boys", except now it's being used to shame and admonish. Shame isn't going to change mindsets, it's only going to make people defensive. It's not as if men are genetically assholes, but these kinds of memes sure make it sound like they are.
It bothers me because I have a son who will grow up to become a man (at least that's how it's looking right now). I worry about what he internalises when he hears that people expect he'll grow up to be a sexist asshole, just because he was born a boy. I have to defend against that just like I defend my daughter when sexism is directed at her, because frankly that's exactly what it is. If I were told from a young age that the default expectation is I'll grow up to be trash just because I have a penis, why bother to do better? I'd probably also listen to the Tates and Petersons who make me feel good about myself instead.
I understand why women are angry and frustrated, they have every right to be. I've also been on the receiving end of sexist and frankly traumatic shit because I was born a girl. I just don't feel like it'll get any better by creating more division, more "us vs them".
I find this meme funny and generally light on the aggression, and more focusing on the praise, but I generally agree with you.
I hate that it's become normal to use hyperbole and generalizations to stack whole groups. It alienated the allies. I feel the same about ACAB and any other gross generalizations.
The response is always like ZDL posted that "you'd have to be stupid to not understand it doesn't mean everyone" but that's the same defense racists use...
The fact these conversations pop up in the first place. Making the divide between people bigger and more extreme just doesn't seem like the winning strategy. It feels like how the US treats criminals.
We could easily focus on praising good behavior without shitting on people.
I have brothers, I have a dad, I have some of the sweetest male friends. And them having to constantly second guess themselves and feel like they are public enemy number one simply for existing just sticks.
I would rather praise of perceived good behavior be the norm than aggression in general for bad behavior, especially if it's gonna be so generalized.
Thank you, you were able to put the point I was trying to make much more succinctly and elegantly.
Sorry to dive into the mix here, but I've got a kind of genuine question, as someone who is having to play catch up on my femme socialization. I thought the "it's not all men" response is sort of the classic incel defense? Like actually the safest approach for women is to assume "all men". The comparison I've had success explaining to men is "how do you treat a gun you don't know anything about?" To which they quickly respond with, "like it's loaded", and I can follow up with "right, because it could easily hurt or kill you." By this point most men are starting to see the connection. So it’s easy to complete the thought with, "most men could easily hurt or kill most women, so treating them all like a loaded gun is legitimately the safest option".
This kind of came up in a comm I mod. A meme came up with the punchline basically being, "women don't want to date fascists and want guys who punch nazis" and it got reported for "alienating men from leftist causes." Like actually if humor like that makes you feel like an outgroup, I don't think the joke was meant for you, and you might want to think about why the crowd you want to be "in" with finds the joke funny or relevant.
EDIT: To be clear, I very much see your point with your son. I would want to find a way to prevent the pigeon holing too. There are definitely ways to have these conversations without making men feel like shit, but providing them examples of healthy role models, even if the example comes from a meme, is not a bad thing. I know my pre-transition self would have wondered, "what does Pedro Pascal do or say to make people think this" which would send me down a rabbit hole of his support for his sister and trans folk in general. His just completely level headed take after level headed take on hot issues as if they have easy and obvious answers. He genuinely spreads love at every turn, which is so far from the default behavior of most men women interact with.
It's weird... I like you comparison to guns but also I hate it. It really does make a point but I think it just enforces the bad generalization point?
NOTE: I'm autistic and miss the point sometimes (a lot) I'm more asking questions here than trying to claim I'm correct. I'm very open to the conversation.
There are lots of problems with it I think. Guns are tools. Tools used to kill and nothing else. Guns aren't capable of thought and reasoning and so on. Guns should be treated as loaded as a respect think, not a fear thing. Guns kill when people use them to kill.
Men are not that. Men can be so many things. Also I'd assume more men have never even come close to hurting or killing women then those that have hurt or killed women. Women have also killed men. Some women don't fear men.
Why treat things as an absolute when it's a complicated spectrum like any other. Generalizations are just bad I think... They just kind of lead to tribalism in a bad way.
My brother pointed out something that happened to him. A woman crossed the street to not walk on the sidewalk where he was waiting for a bus. General advice we give out to each other, right? But then he asked how different would that be if he crossed to street if a black person was waiting for the bus? I'll be honest I didn't have an answer for him. Like if he did that people would call him racist for making a generalization, and I don't think he's wrong...
What's different?
Sorry for the delay, I've only just got the chance to sit down and reply. To your point about incels, how would you feel if someone making a meme saying "all women are gold-diggers". How do you react to incels saying things like women are trashy and only want trashy men and not good guys, or women are weak porcelain dolls and wouldn't survive without men. Would your reaction not be that not all women are like that? That most women aren't like that? This is the same shit, the genders are just reversed. Is it any less true if the rebuttal comes from a woman arguing in good faith vs an extremist TERF? I'm not defending incels, but if they sound the same as someone making a good faith rebuttal, maybe it makes young impressionable men and boys think they might have a point. And if they're right about that, what else might they be right about? This is exactly how people get sucked into cults and far right groups.
I feel your example with guns (while still a generalisation) is different from this kind of meme because it's about appealing to empathy. This meme is not doing that, it's using shame to supposedly get men to reflect and change. I argue it's not very effective, and there are way better ways to do this. You share one example - appeal to empathy. I've seen memes praising men for positive actions they take (e.g. green flag memes).
This kind of discourse is also harmful to transmac individuals. I've unfortunately seen trans men being ostracized from the very communities they relied on for support as soon as they 'pass'. Once they look just like other men, they are seen as a threat and are unwelcome. If this kind of divisive language and approach only impact those doing harm to women, then fine. But it's not and it's doing a bunch of collateral damage in the process.
It's shouldn't be hard to point out positive role models without resorting to belittling people. Most men have strengths (literally) most women don't - let's talk about how they can use those strengths to be a positive force in society. I see way more jokes and memes saying men are trash rather than talk about how they are can be important and positive part of the movement towards equality. Just like the LGBTQIA+ movement would never have made it as far as it did without the help of our allies (and trust me I'm not giving them most of the credit), we're never going to get equality and freedom across genders if we don't work on bringing men as our allies too.
I agree. Male and female have skills that are different. And just like women men can be good or bad. If we want equality we have to consider we do t get that via shame, condescension or derogative statements.
The memes cute but pedro is one of many good men.
You may think no one is saying "all men", but I promise you I've seen this very discourse online and irl. My question to you is, what do you hope to achieve with these memes? To voice your anger, or change people's minds? I'm not defending those who perpetuate the patriarchy, but let's not shoot ourselves in the foot by alienating men who would otherwise be on our side if they didn't feel like they had to face an angry mob. Please, let's not use the same weapons used against us for millennia - it's not working and frankly I am concerned it is starting to actually backfire (see: young men throwing themselves into the arms of the far right). We are literally playing into the hands of those who want to divide us.
This is the natural continuation of choosing the bear. We found The Universal Exception. And I truly don't give a fuck if a meme of a dorky pretty 50 year old man hurts someone's feelings.
I can envision three types of men reacting to this:
A) cool empathetic good guys like Pedro pascal who will realize this is a hyperbolic joke and chuckle a lil bit B) insecure, but not bad dudes who will get all huffy and respond with "#notallmen" C) scary mean men who will take great offense and yell or break things because this meme hurts their feelings but they only understand rage
This analysis, of course, is also a jokey joke and not a doctorate level dissertation, and therefore, it should not be taken too seriously.
Love you all, be safe. May we all meet a Pedro today.
This is a truly excellent comment
I think this is spot on. Most of the men I've known would look at this meme and say "yeah, sounds about right." But I mostly hang with men who are secure in their masculinity and sexuality.
Speaking as a trans woman: This meme in particular? Just seems like lighthearted fun, using a joke to praise somebody for being a good person.
But sometimes people take it too far, and the limit for me is when it's treated like there are zero exceptions, all men are bad.
I didn't draw that line arbitrarily. I have lived experience that shows the "all men are trash" crowd are far less likely to treat me as a woman, and more likely to view me as a now vulnerable man who they have an opportunity to take revenge on. Things like laughing at me for having problems they'd be supporting other women for. My mom used to have a friend like that, who laughed and gave me the classic "welcome to being a woman" every time I brought up things like not being able to go home for a while one day because a car tried to follow me there, or when disruptions in my hormone treatment lead to pain and emotional instability.
This space is shifting into TERF territory real quick
Looking at this meme for what it is, it's literally saying "#yesallmen *except Pedro, so I'm not a bigot <3"
It's a really cowardly way to try on ideologies without acknowledging the blatantly harmful aspects
And this space being for women is fine, but the mandatory requirement to say all men are excluded in every post title makes this space reek of the ways TERFs isolate and control women.
but the mandatory requirement to say all men are excluded in every post title makes this space reek of the ways TERFs isolate and control women.
It's not mandatory, LadyButteryfly is just doing that on some of her posts because so many men comment on posts in this community, which then takes up a lot of time and effort to remove.
The motivation to put the rule in the title of the post is because so many men don't read the rules or notice what community they're in before posting, this helps them be aware and reduces the workload of the moderators.
I hear you on how it can look or seem TERFy, but I think this might just be a misunderstanding, we are explicitly trans inclusive.
Thanks for your feedback! Dont worry we don't do that in every post, but we've sadly had manosphere commenters brigade posts like this in the past. I've found it's best to prevent issues with the title. ❤️
Eh, I get vaguely lesbiphobic vibes from that image, but I don't think it's intentional so I'll give it a pass. Also I prefer glorifying David Tennant.
Pedro Pascal seems like a supportive sweetheart. Meanwhile it seems like David Tennant is the supporter who woke up and chose violence. Also he was really hot as Crowley, ngl. Sucks about Gaiman, Good Omens had some really strong queer vibes.
I totally get the David tenant thing~
I don't think we have to consider men's opinions on every meme we create, they certainly don't consider women's opinions when they post misogynistic memes
Having said that, this meme is very, very light ribbing, I think even a lot of men will agree that Pedro is especially attractive to women
I read it as just another fun celebration of a lovely man while also showing the boys a lovely role model.
Thoughts on the meme? Eh... He's great, but so are a lot of other people. I think there could be more focus on him being a good ROLE MODEL (and why), since a lot of people can't seem get subtext or nuance. But even then, idolizing him in this way already kinda does that. People just have egos, so this all just has to play out, and all of us do our parts to find and help find truth.
I have no idea who that is tbh
thanks for your helpful comment! Unfortunately this community has a rule that only women are permitted to comment. Hope you understand 💛
i have not seen this meme before and i have said myself that pedro is the reason i remain attracted to straight men 😭 i have been sharing terrible dating experiences with my ex- both are insane but his dates were no where near as dangerous +manipulative as mine. my ex is very masc and one of very few genuine good men i could vouch for. he has some resentment toward men in general for similar reasons of abuse, fully understands the man-hating memes, and often finds himself empathising. i dont think any good man would be unfamiliar with the crisis of misogyny post-Me-Too, or would be bothered by women expressing whatever they need to feel over it.
Thanks for your comment, but unfortunately this community has a rule that only women are permitted to comment. Hope you understand 💛
Oooo I think this might be my field of expertise...
Great analysis but I'm pretty sure this is just a hornypost.
This feels like the sort of hyperbolic statement that under analysis is very strange because the idea because the words come from a more primitive part of the brain.
I find it interesting because I don't get quasi-philisophical when horny. For me those parts of my brain are separate "voices". I don't know if that's an autism thing or what
I don't really like them. I don't think it's a huge deal, but, iit bums me out.
It's excruciating how so many people have missed point of this light hearted meme about a seemingly nice man, and turned it into a bunch of virtue signaling negativity.
This is exactly why I left tumblr.
Cringe post.
To preface I don't know who Pedro Pascal is.
For the meme:
- hayley_turner_author seems to be insinuating that women wouldn't give up on men because of Pedro Pascal's arms/muscles.
I don't agree with hta's message and I find it really quite shallow as it's hard to believe that "every women on earth" would like men simply because of being fit/muscular. Sure fit men are more likely to be attractive than unfit men but I don't believe that's all women have in mind when looking for male partners.
In addition, if people have upvoted/shared it enough to others it's very likely to have given younger men and boys the wrong beliefs in that if they build up their muscles then they'll become more popular with all women.
So I personally find this meme to be quite poor in terms of quality as it gives everyone incorrect/misguided views of societal beliefs and fellow people.
Edit:
I totally read the meme wrong😬
interesting
sorry, but big baby boys are not permitted to comment in this community
Good IMO. Maybe men need better role models. I find it alarming that men in general don't find it insulting that rapists like Tate and dumb fkn meat heads like Rogan claim to represent masculinity.
I say, keep praising men like Pascal and shitting on men like Tate. Maybe the message will finally get through.
The multiple downvotes on this post and your comment is exactly why the kind of thing that lead to the meme being made in the first place
You can see the serial downvoters on https://lemvotes.org/ and then just ban them.
Sorry for posting in this thread as a man, I hope it is acceptable to do so in this case. I also feel the downvote brigade is a bit much.
Woah that's actually quite the downvote brigade for Lemmy. Not too surprised at this point though, unfortunately. They've been more or less behaving themselves since you started this community but it definitely looked to me like others had also tried and failed before you came along.
And the only comment that I've had removed here on Lemmy so far (that I'm aware of at least) was talking about the horribly lopsided stats when it comes to men vs women supporting the Afd and the ideological divide in general. And that was within like my first week here lol. So this is the impression that I have of this place.
And sorry for the 3rd paragraph but on the note of others trying and failing, feels like this community is picking up more steam daily. So I don't see this one going anywhere. Definitely not without a fight.
I wonder if there's an automoderator tool to make the first comment of every post a pinned reminder of this community rule
thank you for your comment, but unfortunately this community has a rule that only women are permitted to comment. Hope you understand 💛