Yesterday was the 10th anniversary of the Charlie Hebdo shooting. What is your opinion on the freedom of satire in general and the satire of religion in particular?

Satire should be staunchly defended. Some people may find it offensive and they can go fuck themselves.

Satirical publications are often the last free press able to publish in authoritarian governments and have often played a critical role in communication to weaken oppressive regimes.

We can all occasionally suffer jokes in bad taste in exchange for freedom of the press.

if it was far-right satire i would feel pretty shit about it but it should probably still be allowed (?)
- Yup, far right satire should also be allowed.
  Granted, the only comedy the far right knows is the one joke so it's a stretch to call it satire.

It was depressing that every newspaper in the developed world didn't print the cartoon :(

They sold millions of them here in France though but yeah you're right. Especially the Danes who backed down then and again.

I think Charlie Hebdo comics are often in bad taste and more shock value than critic, but that's no legitimate reason to massacre people.

More than the attack on Charlie Hebdo itself, which I can "understand" in the twisted sense of a religious fanatic, it was the overall ruthlessness of the attackers that shocked me. I remember vividly seeing a video of one of the attackers walking up to a wounded police officer and executing him at point-blank range.

I'm with you here, satire should be protected, killing people for satire is awful, and Charlie Hebdo have a really dumb and bad taste humor.

We pull back too much because Islamic nutjobs will get violent because you dared draw a picture that resembled their stupid prophet. By doing that, we are giving them what they want and telling other religious groups that if they get violent enough, we’ll stop to appease them too.

You can mock Jesus, Moses, Krishna and any other religious figure because their followers, at worse, are going to verbally protest, if they do anything at all. But draw fucking Muhammad and people will tell you to knock it off because we don’t want to upset the assholes who will riot and kill people because they can’t handle someone having a differing opinion. Society bends over backwards to not offend Islam out of fear.

In response, we should have doubled down. Make more cartoons, get more vulgar with it…go all in, not stopped to appease them. Some people did for a while immediately after the attack, but not enough and not long enough, imo.

On the other side, if you do double down and get vulgar then you'll find lot of racists joining in with you. That's the dilemma of criticizing or satirizing Islam while also staying away from xenophobes.

Prohibiting satire of religion is a form of blasphemy law, and blasphemy laws shouldn't exist.

Is it a sensitive topic? I mean satire is respected in any country with decent human rights / freedom of speech. It only triggers bigots that theoretically have bigger problems.

What a void attitude.
The Charlie Hebdo event has proven that the discussion is very neccessary, and that satire is not fully respected even in a modern western society.
- I wouldn't say it's void, they were extremists. Not to take away from the tragedy of course. From my understanding the question is specifically about satire.
  I'd say we've moved to wanna be oligarchs highjacking media companies in democracies for "fake news" and war crimes committed against journalists. Israel is too busy blowing up hospitals to attack foreign journalists for Nettenyohoo memes.
  Didnt some journalist quit because he made satire of besos and besos being the owner of the media company didnt let it get published? Thats the reality satire faces today.
  A more controversial topic would be discussing the satire of luigi that is being surpressed. (Any form of luigi speech really, but satire too).

My opinion is that satire must hurt. Otherwise it may have no impact, then it is nothing else than cheap comedy. But it is possible that it hurts too much, so that some people cannot endure it. Society has a duty to protect the weak as well as the artists. It is a narrow line.

Honestly? That I would rather have Meta (and a bunch of Western countries, while we're at it) lift restrictions on that front first before they go against LGBT people.

I'm not on board with the idea that edgy or offensive humor is valuable in itself, but I absolutely abhor the scenario where offended conservative and traditionalist views are treated in their own terms while marginalized groups are considered needy or nagging if they ask for the same treatment.

Also not on board with comedians assuming that noting their ignorance or bigotry is the same as not having a sense of humor, incidentally. Everybody sucks, is my point.

"Islamists" are politically far-right - paleoconservatives, theocrats, fascists.

Satire’s dead, but I’d love to see a revival of both it and serious human existence within my lifetime c:

Even a scientist on the bleeding edge deals the game of life in error bars. Absolutes do not exist anywhere except idealized fantasy. Anyone driven to violence because of belief is not human;/only primitive animal.

Everything is and should be allowed in comedy. Religion is no exception.

Murdering humans over a drawing is a sensitive topic for me. Please do not expect civility when discussing ancient barbaric pre-scientific belief systems.

By that same thought process, don’t expect civility when you’re making fun of and disparaging people’s religions.
🤷🏼‍♂️
Just saying, you might want to think about what your advocating for and the hypocrisy behind it.

A week ago I was in line to check out and there was a young woman in a hijab. When she turned to help me I saw her entire face and hands (all I could see really) had acid burns all over.

The paradox of tolerance will never be something I struggle with once The Fall happens. Regardless for whichever religion seeks to lynch me.

once The Fall happens
What's that?
- One of the four seasons

I always thought that the reason that religious extremists are so obsessed with concepts like blasphemy and hatred for other sects and religions is because their very existence plants seeds of doubt in their minds. "If my beliefs are self evident and absolutely true then how can any other beliefs possibly exist?" They may turn it around and pose it as an attack on them "They are trying to make me doubt my beliefs."
- Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"
  He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too! What franchise?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"
  He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too!"
  Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over

In the words of Sam Harris: "People were murdered over cartoons. End of moral analysis."

I'm sure there are folks here who have listened to a lot more Sam Harris than I have, but I've listened to several audiobooks and probably 40-50 hours of his podcast. He has some smart things to say about neuroscience and mindfulness, but my god he has some toxic, middle-school-ass takes on Islam. I haven't heard that quote before, but I'm not surprised he said it. He's Ben Shapiro with a PhD who makes deliberately obtuse, reductive, bad faith statements about Islam and Muslims.
For the record, I'm a white atheist. I think religion has been the source of immeasurable violence in the world. I don't think anyone should be shot over something they say or draw, but to declare "end of moral analysis" is ignorant.
Well, he may have a point there, bit this is the same guy who promotes racial screening in airports in spite of repeated refutations of the usefulness of such measures by a security expert, so...
- I've listened to maybe 10-15 hours of Sam Harris and I've never heard him say that. Can you source that?

Satire should be free. Hate speech should not. People shouldn't be killed for either. I don't particularly cry when bigots die though.

All that said, there's reasons some jokes just aren't worth telling. There's times and spaces, and for some jokes there's neither and that's ok.

Is making fun of a religion hate speech? Like religion is a choice to embrace so its kind of weird that it's a protected class, despite the pilgrims fleeing it.
- As in most things: it depends. Your question is too broad for an answer lacking nuance. But why did you ask?

Hebdo was super racist and their criticism came from a glass house. If a Nazi dies I am not losing sleep over it.

What makes you think they were super racist or Nazis?
- Their cartoons were similarly racist to Nazi propaganda.

The shooting wasn't merely about the freedom of satire. Not really. Let's complicate the story.

The Kouachi brothers were Algerian and you can't ignore the history of French colonialism in Algeria as the antecedent to this attack. This isn't just about secularism and blasphemy, that's only the surface. It's about racism and colonialism and imperialism. Don't think of this only as religious fanatics angry because infidels insulted the Prophet Mohammad, think of this as an oppressed racial group lashing out at a racist society and it being channeled through Islam. There's a deeper tension here than just the religious surface.

Now, as for my opinion?

Racist satire should be illegal and that racists should be put into reeducation camps to be rehabilitated.

Also! Adventurism is bad and people should get organized into a Party, not do vigilante attacks on racists.

You sound really excited to put people into camps
- Well we can't just kill them!
  Crackkkers don't know any better, we can help them overcome their racist upbringings.
The Kouachi brothers were Algerian
They were both French, born in Paris. Their parents were Algerian.
You're not saying "but where are they really from" are you?..
- And why were their parents in France and not Algeria? Why did they have to leave their homes to raise their children in France?
  Because of French colonialism in Algeria! Because their country was underdeveloped and used as a source of cheap labor and resources and subjected to the horrors of a military occupation by a colonial power! You can't just isolate immigration in a vacuum without analyzing the impacts of imperialism and colonialism on migration.
- Go read up on what the French did in Algeria and you might understand why some Algerians might want to kill French racists.
Consistently, you always choose the repressive side as you did with China in that thread about lgbt erotica authors being arrested. As a queer socialist, this is depressive to see.
- Imagine not believing racists should be repressed. 🙄
  Also, in case you forgot, all I did in that thread was point out that China bans all erotica and that it isn't specifically targeting queer authors. I just wanted to clarify something that wasn't clear in the title. I never justified China's outdated laws about erotic literature.
Could you provide a source describing how the attack was related to colonialism rather than blasphemy against the prophet of Islam?
What makes you think Charlie's intentions are racism rather than mocking extremists?
Edit: added second question.
- https://www.counterpunch.org/2015/01/14/laffaire-charlie-hebdo-and-western-colonialism/
  These men were fighting with Western-backed rebels in Syria to overthrow Assad, which is where they learned to kill.
  And it's important to note their Algerian heritage because France occupied Algeria as recently as 1962 when it gained independence from France. Their parents didn't immigrate from Algeria to France in a vacuum.
  This was blowback.