The Vote Socialist campaign stands unequivocally with the Palestinian people as they stand strong in the face of one year of US-Israeli genocide in Gaza.
The Vote Socialist campaign stands unequivocally with the Palestinian people as they stand strong in the face of one year of US-Israeli genocide in Gaza.
For decades, we have been in the streets in defense of the Palestinian people, and will continue to fight until the total liberation of Palestine!
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This is great, and I completely agree with you, and on November 5th I'm going to cast a ballot for Kamala Harris because Trump will be worse. You should, too.
Do you care about stopping fascism? Then you must study its history, and come to the understanding that it can only be opposed by socialist organizing.
Go join a socialist org. Vote for whoever you want to but don't pretend like voting for Kamala Harris will stop the crisis.
To oppose fascism with conviction, you have to build up a socialist project.
Right, but you're making my point for me. You can't build up a socialist project by running a third party presidential campaign. You need a grassroots movement, with local politicians, ideological outreach, volunteer organizations, and voter evangelism.
It's like we've built a house, and we're painting the ceilings, and someone asks you which paint you like, and you say that you don't like the location of the house. You might be right, but that's not the decision we're faced with right now. Your choices are matte ceiling white and human feces. "Relocate the house, because this is a bad spot for a house," you say. Well, that's not going to happen, so white or shit? "Move the house. Everybody, let's all vote to move the house." No. You can have an opinion on the ceiling color, or you can fuck off, but there is a clear choice to be made. If you fuck off, your ceiling may be painted with human shit, and if you don't think that matters enough to have an opinion, I don't know what to tell you.
It is more like they're building more concentration camps and we are voting whether there should be a "in this house" lawnsign out front of each one.
At some point you have to realize that voting within capitalist psuedo-democracy will not get you the results you want, if you care about stopping the construction of the concentration camps.
At some point, you have to realize that the working class is only going to save itself from encroaching fascism by banding together, and not by voting between candidates that will never be allowed to represent our interests.
I'm sympathetic to the idea that Kamala Harris will be better in some ways than Trump, but I dont care enough to really bother examining all sides of the argument, because fascism is a structural issue that will not be resolved through sham elections where people only get options approved by the Capitalist class.
The capitalist class will lead us to fascism if they are not stopped. That is the long and short of it.
If you care about stopping fascism- if you're willing to put blood sweat and tears into preventing it from happening in the US- you have to join a socialist org and work towards defeating capitalism. Our oppressors will not grant us freedom through their ballot box.
It's not an either-or situation. Vote for Kamala and organize for socialism. Voting is super easy, it just takes a little time once every four years.
I fully believe a socialist revolution will only be made exponentially more difficult under Republican leadership, it wouldn't make anything better, and it would hurt many people I love.
I'm not in a swing state and I already vote every year. Stop trying to convince me and go attend a dsa meeting or something
Anyone speak Russian? I'd like to adress Dimitri here in his mother tongue. Kamala is the answer go home and fuck your vodka bottle.
I admit I’m ignorant on the issue, and you seem to know: what are some examples of socialist organizations being the main force in stopping fascism?
And what about the cases of socialist fascism? Is the only remedy a more socialist organization?
I admit I’m ignorant on the issue, and you seem to know: what are some examples of socialist organizations being the main force in stopping fascism?
The vast majority of antifascist partisans in Nazi-occupied countries were socialists. We actually organize and fight while liberals create the conditions for movements like fascism.
For example, the partisans in what became Yugoslavia took back their country through their militant organizing.
Though we should not forget the antifascist force that defeated the Nazis and gave those partisans more room to operate: The Soviet Union. While Western liberal powers were sitting back hoping for the Nazis to take out Eastern Eurooe, the USSR was rapidly developing its infrastructure and productive capacity so that could fight an existential war against the fascists.
And what about the cases of socialist fascism?
That isn't a thing. Those words don't make sense together.
Fascism was a specific development in countries, specifically Germany and Italy, that wanted to become imperial powers as a new set of post-WWI great capitalist powers had basically carved the world up into pieces for themselves to plunder and had left out both. The fascists built on the prevailing conditions in those countries.
German and Italian liberals could only offer the same degrading conditions available to imperialized countries. Instead of being the vampires getting fat off the blood of others, they were trying to navigate the country as a blood-bags.
Socialists understood this and organized against it, but this, of course, threatened capital. Socialists would organize and take over exploitative factories, neighborhoods, municipalities, and run them for and by workers. Capitalists promoted the opponents of socialists, and fascists emerged as this opposition. They began as violent gangs of nationalist thugs supported by capitalists to "protect businesses" and go after socialists. Liberals supported these fascists. So did social democrars once they gained electoral power. All of the mealy-mouthed reformers empowered fascists materially against socialists.
And that is how fascists developed, in a time of crisis for how to resolve the competing forces of imperialized liberalism and socialist organization. Their angle was to develop a hyper-nationalist program against the socialist one and (on paper) against the liberal one, to explain why the common person's (Volk) conditions were degrading without actually materially addressing the capitalist system as it actually was, but through mythologies about scapegoated minorities, betrayal, and not doing capitalism well enough or for the interests of the people. Where they did have a material analysis it was in their expansionism, they understood how the imperialist equation looked, but instead of trying to destroy imperialism they just wanted to sit at its head.
And at every step of the way, socialists fought them. They were, and are, complete enemies.
Is the only remedy a more socialist organization?
There is no liberation without organization. And organization will not produce the outcomes we need without having a correct understanding and analysis of oppression and how to combat it. Therefore, we need socialist organizing.
This does not mean it is easy.
Thanks a lot for taking the time to write such a well written and thorough response! My ignorance shows, and I’ve definitely gained some knowledge of both the definition and history of fascism.
Not knowing this topic I'd the norm! Schools do not teach the actual political context in these countries, it is all filtered through simplistic narratives that were crafted by anticommunist propagandists (McCarthyites, e.g.) that wanted to thread the needle of presenting Nazis as people to be opposed without giving socialists the credit for doing 80% of the opposing. And the issues related to capitalism are glossed over at all costs because, of course, those same writers (1) are big fans of capitalism while (2) not understanding it very well themselves. The most powerful tool in propaganda is emphasis. To take a topic and seemingly discuss it while neglecting inconvenient aspects and nailing the ones you care about. We are constantly bombarded with this exact form of propaganda, it has become self-sustaining. People don't even know they're doing it, the narratives have calcified.
And then, shock! They open up a history book, they read the old German papers, they see the Soviet Archives, and the realities disagree almost completely with what the Texas Board of Education approved textbook said.
Anyways, give yourself a break, none if us are immune to propaganda. Just keep that spark of humility alive and read thoroughly. I recommend reading critical materials, like media criticism and left theory and histories, as these provide very useful tools for tackling mainstream sources critically.
If you would like a (short) book recommendation, you might appreciate Blackshirts and Reds by Michael Parenti, which actually covers the exact topic of fascists vs. socialists from a critical historical perspective.
Thanks again for the nice response and thanks for the book tip. I’ll see if I can find some time and a copy, and read it.
Just be wary of anyone conflating a simple vote for a 3rd party candidate for president every 4 years with the hard work of actually organizing a socialist movement. They are very different things. A 3rd party that has zero mathematical chance of success and crawls out of the woodwork every 4 years is a spoiler, not serious, and only benefits the fascist. This is just accelerationism.
PSL does plenty of organizing. They're clearly one of the better socialist orgs in the US.
Also that's not what accelerationism means
Is that why PSL has a grand total of zero members in office? I thought surely there must be a few, but nope - zero. It's literally a joke to run a candidate for president when you don't have a single member serving in any elected office in the entire country. It's laughable.
And sure, maybe it's not "true accelerationism" but it's a common term to describe leftists that embrace people like Trump because they are deluded into thinking it will somehow break the system and a communist utopia can magically rise from the ashes. Call it whatever you want, but it will never be a good idea.
It's not "embracing Trump", that's what liberals like to frame it as for rhetorical effect. Calling it accelerationism is just willful ignorance towards what the intentions of the approach are. It's a strategy oriented around timescale that is more than just this election (in stark contrast to the alarmist "Most important election of our lifetime" rhetoric of liberals) because there will be more elections and unconditional subservience to the dems in this election will encourage their lurching still further to the right in future elections.
The purpose is to make the Democrats choose between concessions to the left or letting the Republicans win. It's not difficult to understand.
Nobody said it was difficult to understand. I agree it's a dead simple idea, and like most dead simple ideas it's not actually a good idea. There's a reason Bernie Sanders wholeheartedly endorsed Kamala (and Hillary), but sure, all the .ml folks must know better. If you think Bernie is too centrist then you need to understand that your cohort is so laughably out of step with the populace that you'll never get anywhere. Kind of like where PSL is at with zero seats (ever, btw, not just currently).
Real people will be harmed by another Trump term. Immigrants, women, POC, LGBT, basically anyone other than healthy white men. It says a lot when you think they're all disposable enough to help Trump to win in the hopes of a future socialist movement that won't ever happen because the movement can't even win a single seat anywhere in the country. AOC correctly called the green party "not serious" and they've actually won a small handful of elections, unlike PSL. Movements start from the bottom up, not the top down.
I admit I’m ignorant on the issue, and you seem to know: what are some examples of socialist organizations being the main force in stopping fascism?
WW2. Soviet Union inflicting more than 80 percent of losses + partisans in the Balkans freeing themselves. Italian partisans were also not given credit for their huge role in liberating Italy. Most resistance in fascist territory had a huge socialist contingent. Romania had a socialist movement that pulled off a coup during ww2 as the Soviets were making their push back to Berlin, saving a massive amount of lives.The socialists during the Spanish Civil War, although they were basically just Spanish Republicans + limited soviet aid fighting against half of Spain, and massive German and Italian forces, so they lost.
In Germany, the socialists fought the fascists but the liberals were more willing to form a coalition with the fascists than with the socialists.
And what about the cases of socialist fascism? Is the only remedy a more socialist organization?
Could you define what you mean by this? Because fascism is a specific thing that emerges within capitalism. There is no such thing as socialist fascism, as someone who has done a lot of learning on the history of fascism and socialism.
But why are fascists bad. Is it because they commit genocide hmmm?
why? how? how do you rationalize this when the Biden administration is openly endorsing and supporting genocide? How could Trump make it worse? Write racist slurs on the bombs sent to Israel?
Write racist slurs on the bombs sent to Israel?
Liberals literally believe this, that's why they keep talking about that one Nazi who signed a bomb sent to Gaza.
They are a genocide supporter but they know it is gauche to admit it.
One thing I can say about the Zionists is that they're honest. They're wrong, but they're honest.
It's hard to respect anybody who, on the one hand, opposes Harris for her support of genocide, but on the other hand votes for her anyway.
PSL isn't going to win no matter what (even if they won every state they're on the ballot in, they can't reach 270). Trump says "You've got to finish the problem" regarding Gaza aka wipe out Gaza, while Biden/Harris/Walz support Israel defending itself within its borders but don't support genocide. Is the democrat position as good as it could be? No. Is Trump's position far worse? Yes.
everything that has happened so far has happened under a dem administration. 40+k deaths and endless displaced. Stop being delusional, dems are genocidal and you're guilty too.
So... Your solution is to increase the chance that we elect a guy that not very subtly hinted at letting Israel kill everyone in Gaza, on top of all the rights Trump wants to take away for people in the US? I don't like the democrat party and they do a lot wrong, but they're still a hell of a lot better than Republicans.
Anyone voting for the PSL party this election is just voting for Trump.
That's exactly how eventually you are going to get Trump. Voting the lesser evil always, inevitably leads to the major evil. I live in a country that already elected fascists with this same logic and US is going to follow soon.
So... Your solution is to increase the chance that we elect a guy that not very subtly hinted at letting Israel kill everyone in Gaza
Biden is already actually doing this. Biden is already materially supplying the necessary means for this genocide, in weapons, logistics, diplomatic support, PR pushes. And Kamala has been perfectly in line with him the entire time.
Aside from this, your lesser evil logic is inherently self-defeating and us why you are always trying to split hairs in which war criminal to cheer on rather than actually opposing them. A competent electoralist would priorituze building leverage (withholding votes while making demands) and consciousness (so that number is large enough to matter). Instead, you are repeating what those in power tell you to say, for their own benefit.
But how much time do we really need to spend on bad strategy when you openly support genociders, and therefore, the genocide they are carrying out? Democratic voters are not hard-nosed strategists building power for their causes, making reluctant compromises. They vote based on personal morals and propaganda campaigns.
Believe it or not, your personal morals should include fighting against genocide, not for its perpetrators.
I don't like the democrat party and they do a lot wrong, but they're still a hell of a lot better than Republicans.
You like it enough to go to bat forvit while it carries out genocide. Spare us the feigned reluctance.
Anyone voting for the PSL party this election is just voting for Trump.
This is a good example of why you should engage critically with what your masters handle down to you as talking points. By this sane logic (not voting for a major party's candidate) a vote for PSL is a vote for Harris so don't worry it all balances out.
But of course, that isn't actually how electoralism works. Electoral power, such as it is, does not emerge from your personal "reluctant" vote for genocide. Nor does it emerge from repeating the logic that it you just support the lesser evil team, it will all work out, just wait around for the needed change. Electoral piwer emerges from leverage, from having material consequences for not meeting demands, and the only real material consequence in an election is that you lose.
It is a moral and strategic imperative that the genocidal Biden-Harris administration lose this election and that it is clear they list due to supporting genocide.
It is up to you whether you want to contribute to that moral and strategic imperative or throw your vote into the historical pile of supporters of oppression. Whether you will fight for liberation or be MLK's white moderate.
How can Trump be any worse on this? Biden/Harris are already giving Israel everything they want. How could you give them more?
while Biden/Harris/Walz support Israel defending itself within its borders but don’t support genocide.
This needs to be a joke. Is Gaza part of Israel now?
Trump has said "finish it", without elaborating AFAIK. Do you have evidence that he means "wipe out Gaza"?
while Biden/Harris/Walz support Israel defending itself within its borders but don't support genocide.
They do support genocide. They've been supporting it this whole time. They have said they will continue to support it.
I agree with you in theory, but I'm voting for a genocidal fascist in practice.
Hey at least you're self aware!
Buddy, I don't even live in burgerland. However, it's obvious to anybody with even a shred of intellectual honesty what dems and their supporters stand for.
I don't vote for parties endorsed by dick cheney, sorry :/
Of all the arguments I've heard today, that's the best one.
No.
Ok
You should be against genocide and vote against genociders. Harris is literally part of the administration doing this genocide and has been an active supporter of its strategies. She has been very clear in her support of Israel during genocide, as has nearly the entirety of the "lesser evil" (genocidal) Democratic Party.
Then run some downticket races. Write your congresspeople. Join some protests or boycotts. And at the ballot, vote your conscience.
It's Trump or Harris. You can choose one, or you can choose neither, but one of those two people will win the election. Do you think it doesn't matter who wins?
As you ignored what I said, let me repeat.
You should be against genocide and vote against genociders. Harris is literally part of the administration doing this genocide and has been an active supporter of its strategies. She has been very clear in her support of Israel during genocide, as has nearly the entirety of the "lesser evil" (genocidal) Democratic Party.
no
Ok
Gotta love the vote shaming liberals, I only wish they were ashamed for voting for genocide.
Genocide Extreme™ Party or Genocide Party? At the end of the day it is still genocide and you should be ashamed that genocide isn't a red line for you. If you'll vote for genocide, what won't you vote for? You're basically telling the democrat party "I will vote for you as long as you make me feel morally superior to republicans regardless of what your actual policies are. And if you feel like changing those policies later on to further align with republicans, I'm cool with that too."
@themeatbridge @Confidant6198 You'll really send them a message that Genocide is bad;) Good for you.
Glad to help.
So you don't agree with them.
I agree with them that Palestinians should be free, that Israel should stop the genocide, that America should stop supporting the genocide. And I agree that Donald Trump would be the worst possible candidate to put in charge of the executive branch of the US government.
I only disagree with two points. First, I do not agree that Kamala Harris is the same as Donald Trump, not on any issue. Second, I do not agree that voting for a nonviable third party in a national election will have any effect on Democrats or their policies.
I agree with de la Cruz on more issues than I do with Harris. Healthcare, taxation, military spending, reparations, Indigenous sovereignty... Pretty much everything except those two points, so I'm voting for Harris because she's better than Trump.
So you don't actually agree with them regarding Palestinian lives, you agree with Harris. Simply saying "ideas sound good" doesn't mean you agree with them, even if you think they would be better. If your actions prevent ideas you think were good, like cessation of Palestinian genocide, then you don't actually support said ideas.
I'm not sure how I can be more clear. I disagree with Harris on most issues. I will vote for Harris because Trump would be much worse.
There are no actions available to me that will end the Palestinian genocide.
There are no actions available to me that will end the Palestinian genocide.
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You are currently complicit in the genocide by advocating for genociders and normalizing genocide as just another "lesser evil" policy plsnk.
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You and I both know you haven't even tried to find anything to do. If you had, you would have found it easily and would be listing it for credit. You can join socialist groups such as PSL (though they would not take you until you became more educated) or FRSO. You could help the ANSWER Coalition or other groups present at protests. You could promote BDS programs that turn up the pressure on Israel. You could dedicate your time to opposing genocide apologetics. You could normalize support for the axis of resistance. There is a reason Kamala named Iran as the her idea if the biggest adversary, they are the state that is most strongly opposing this genocide. You could raise money for direct assistance to Palestinians (not NGOs) so they better survive.
Stop making excuses.
See, the cool thing about this is you already know everything about me, what organizations I have joined and support, what political and civil programs I participate in, so it's extremely easy for me to recognize that you're simply a liar. If you were just wrong, we could continue to debate, but you've chosen to deliberately misrepresent who I am, which means I can ignore anything else you say because you've proven to be dishonest.
See, the cool thing about this is you already know everything about me
It is a common tsctic of deflection to exaggerate a perceived opponent's claims so that you can talk about the exaggeration instead of what was actually said.
I know some things about you based on your behavior. Not everything. And the things said I knew? You have not contradicted them.
what organizations I have joined and support
Certainly none that support Palestine and oppose the genocide because they would kick you out for these sentiments. See how I know things?
what political and civil programs I participate in
This is just repeating yourself.
so it's extremely easy for me to recognize that you're simply a liar.
Tell me about your great organizing for Palestine and against this genocide, O Kamala Harris genocide vote shamer.
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There are no actions available to me that will end the Palestinian genocide.
https://files.catbox.moe/bcu4mt.mp4
These people are part of an organization that does sabotage like this. The last team got fully acquited as the jury refused to convict them.
Cool. So now that they have ended the Palestinian genocide, I guess we don't have to worry about it anymore?
Okay so you're not willing to do anything unless you, through your personal actions, can stop an entire genocide? Or are you trying to make a different point?
So you'll goosestep with the DNC no matter how far-right they slide and will never lift a finger.
I agree with them that Palestinians should be free, that Israel should stop the genocide, that America should stop supporting the genocide. And I agree that Donald Trump would be the worst
You would like to believe this in theory but clearly do not really think so. Otherwise, you would not be telling everyone to support the genocidal Biden-Harris administration.
And I agree that Donald Trump would be the worst possible candidate to put in charge of the executive branch of the US government.
We've had a Trump presidency and he didn't start any genocides. The main genocide he continued was Obama's targeting Yemen, but Trump deescalated it by comparison. We don't need hypotheticals, we already know that, in action, your cabdidates are more bloodthirsty war criminals.
Though the entire premise is flawed. Maybe you should take a step back and ask what you are contributing to by normalizing genocide. By, instead of helping organize resistance, you are trying to sheepdog people back into the fold so they vote for genociders. Look at yourself in a mirror and reoeat those words.
I only disagree with two points. First, I do not agree that Kamala Harris is the same as Donald Trump, not on any issue.
Kamala Harris rarely takes any stances of her own, mostly just taking on others' talking points. She then reverses course any old time with no consequences aside from the fact that nobody can name a single thing they like about her, There is nothing there to directly grasp onto rhetorically. You can have nothing to say about her policy positions with any confidence outside if her track record of tailing power and courting the right. California's top cop just announced she would put a Republican in her cabinet, Lmao. Aren't Republicans an existential threat, per your team-based logic?
But in action, we know she is lockstep with the Biden admin and the DNC was a dystopian nightmare of JOYOUS celebration of genociders (thank you Joe!) and Israel, though I repeat myself.
Second, I do not agree that voting for a nonviable third party in a national election will have any effect on Democrats or their policies.
Democrats have routinely courted the votes of people that otherwise refuse to vote for them based on specific issues. This does not mean that they will actually respond to every demand, but your belief is ahistorical. Have you not notice Dems moving right? They're trying to peel off Republican voters. Do you know why they do that? Do you know how their strategists think of their "left", such as it is? They know that they could gain votes from Republicans and think they already have your vote locked down. What are you going to do, vote third party? This little piece of illogic works on you to disempower yourself. They don't have to do anything except vilify their opponent and you do the rest of the work!
You need to develop discipline if you are to do anything good electorally, let alone stop excusing genocide.
I agree with de la Cruz on more issues than I do with Harris. Healthcare, taxation, military spending, reparations, Indigenous sovereignty... Pretty much everything except those two points, so I'm voting for Harris because she's better than Trump.
Is a candidate better when they can get away with genocide without your opposition? Y'all went straight to sleep after Biden was elected and are now excusing genocide.
A candidate is better when they are on enough of the ballots to win the election. Claudia is not. She does not have any conceivable path to 270. She literally cannot win. Casting a vote for her is saying you don't care who actually wins. I actually care.
First, just want to note that you ignored basically everything I said. If you can't actually engage with what I say, you can always just not write a comment at all.
A candidate is better when they are on enough of the ballots to win the election. Claudia is not.
I challenged you to think about the harm created by normalization. You can't help but try and slot it into "but my genocidet can win the election" logic. Do you not see the disconnect?
She does not have any conceivable path to 270. She literally cannot win.
Yes everyone is aware of this, you are just catching up.
Casting a vote for her is saying you don't care who actually wins.
First, did you already forget how the electoral college works? It's not like your vote is actually for Harris and will help her win in most states. But you loudly announcing support for a genocider does have impact.
Voting third party in this situation, as in most, says, "neither major candidate is acceptable to me. You are pretending this means a lack of investment in outcomes, but it actually means having a realistic idea of how you can begin to forward political interests rather than being a sheepdog for genocidal empire.
Again, your "strategy" is to cheerlead genociders. And of course it isn't your strategy, it's the same PR group-tested vote shaming strategy that has led to Democrats being able to openly do genocide while knowing they won't lose your vote. Your "strategy" is why we are here.
I'm personally more partial to "I'm sorry I won't sacrifice my trans friends' lives to make myself feel morally superior," but yours works too haha
Trans woman here, stop using the genocide happening against us to wipe your hands of the genocide happening in Gaza
If you actually oppose fascism, you have to join a socialist org. I don't give a shit who you vote for, but the liberals won't stop fascism, they structurally can't.
Your opinion is noted, but I've heard the reverse of that statement from trans people as well, so...no? Trans people are not a monolith and you do not speak for all of them any more than I speak for all white 20-something dudes.
Cool, so you want to use trans genocide to justify your position, and you'll listen to the trans people who agree with you but not to trans people to disagree with you.
This is good ally behavior /s
Don't give a shit who you vote for but if you want to actually stop fascism you have to go join a socialist org. Liberals are structurally incapable of stopping fascism, as fascism is capitalism in decay and liberals support capitalism as their number 1 priority.
In a situation where I am being told to do 2 conflicting things that are effectively mutually exclusive, yes, I will pick the person I know's wishes over some random stranger.
Don’t give a shit who you vote for but if you want to actually stop fascism you have to go join a socialist org. Liberals are structurally incapable of stopping fascism, as fascism is capitalism in decay and liberals support capitalism as their number 1 priority.
Is this mutually exclusive with your friend's statement?
You should pick the correct thing rather than treating trans people like Pokemon.
I'm merely acting on the wishes of the person who asked me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Your opinion is noted, but I've heard the reverse of that statement from trans people as well, so...no?
So maybe you should stop treating trans people like a monolith and develop correct opinions like, "genocide is unacceptable and I should work against it".
This is why parent is correct and you are not.
Trans people are not a mono
The irony
and you do not speak for all of them any more than I speak for all white 20-something dudes.
Hey look a 20-sometging white dude that excuses the genocide of brown people. What a unique and uncommon development.
Your idea of working against genocide is...torpedoing other positive changes in people's lives by not participating in harm reduction? Interesting choice
Your idea of working against genocide is...torpedoing other positive changes in people's lives by not participating in harm reduction?
I've said nothing remotely like that. Though your attempt to characterize neoliberal genociders as harm reduction is noted.
I do actual work with and for trans people. Tangible things. Not sitting around being flippant about my support for genocide. That's your sin to mull over. Maybe you will forgive yourself some day.
And I applaud your work - however, surely you must understand the risks of a second Trump presidency, given what you do.
And all my "supporting for genocide" amounts to is being stuck with a two-party system. I only "support" it insofar as I must by the virtue of my vote going to the party that enables it (the only 2 with a chance to win do). I made my peace with choosing to accept that the US foreign policy apparatus is going to do these things regardless of which major party is in power, and the best option available of the two is the one that doesn't have a giant playbook for dismantling the few positive things we do have when they take power.
Contrary to what you may think, I truly do largely agree with many of the things being said here, BUT I have determined that the costs of effectively allowing Republicans to win by protesting and not voting for Kamala poses too great a risk to the things I care about. If my sin is weighing the lives of Palestinians today over the millions of climate refugees and minorities that will be harmed or killed by Republicans seizing power in the election, then so be it.
And I applaud your work - however, surely you must understand the risks of a second Trump presidency, given what you do.
I have already addressed lesser evil logic for supporting genocide. You can respond to that if you'd like.
And all my "supporting for genocide" amounts to is being stuck with a two-party system.
Incorrect. You can sit quietly under the two party system and be doing a better job than trying to vocally normalize genocide and get other people to think the same.
I only "support" it insofar as I must by the virtue of my vote going to the party that enables it (the only 2 with a chance to win do).
This also does not require you to vocalize normalizing genocide and telling people it's cool to support genociders. It also does not require you to tokenize trans people as if your support for genociders is somegow in solidarity with trans people.
I made my peace with choosing to accept that the US foreign policy apparatus is going to do these things regardless of which major party is in power
"I chose to help normalize genocide rather than work against it".
and the best option available of the two is the one that doesn't have a giant playbook for dismantling the few positive things we do have when they take power.
I have already addressed the illogic of lesser evilism. You have neither a personal moral nor strategic justification for what you are doing. You are not, in fact, "realizing" or accepting any kind of insight. You are repeating bog standard PR-tested talking points from the party and its supporters.
Contrary to what you may think, I truly do largely agree with many of the things being said here
No, you do not. You would like to feel like you do, but you actually work in opposition to them, and openly. You are not a friend or an ally of those facing genocide. You are a cheerleader for the genociders in power using their tired talking points. You are even being flippant and joking about genocide.
[repeating yourself with lesser evilism]
I have already addressed this.
To make myself feel morally superior is an absolutely wild thing to say for a genocide.
I was talking to a girl in beyruth. She was concerned about her parents. She wanted to flee to jordan, but the planes are full. Here's the exchange.
hat's what I heard, these a-holes are putting warning that an area was gonna get bombed and then they bomb another place. Do you know where to go? You have family abroad? (...) 9:56 CEST Bonjour 9:57 CEST Yes and they are using phosphorous!! 9:57 CEST I was thinking of going to a relative of mine in Jordan 9:58 CEST My mom and dad refuse to leave 9:58 CEST Sadly they say that they would rather die in Lebanon 9:59 CEST It is heartbreaking to see my parents, who are so old, witness yet another war!!Yep. That sucks. Doesn't change that I'm voting for Kamala.
I'd rather her be in charge than Donald "Finish the Job" Trump.
Don't worry, Biden sent in the troops and approved the invasion of Lebanon.
Welcome to US foreign policy, paid for by all our tax dollars regardless of who is in charge.
Yep, therefore both the DNC and GOP represent "finish the job" genocide and ought to be abandoned entirely.
Nope. There are degrees of escalation and the possibility of pullback with one of them (hint: Evangelicals are a big part of the Republican base, who believe Israel plays a role in doomsday).
If the US went gloves off there wouldn't be any Palestinian alive in a month if I'm being honest.
What are you doing to push Harris to the left on this position? She needs to change, not just because it's the right thing to do, but because it could cost her the election. If you're so worried about Trump winning, you need her to change in this.
Me? Not a whole lot if I'm being honest. I'm more focused on local issues in my deep red state to really worry about other things. "Put on your breathing mask before assisting others" or however the safety tag reads
I do not care about you at all.
And yet you replied to me first...how odd
But you will sacrifice palestinians to make yourself feel morally superior, of course, and eventually all of us when the duopoly fails to adequately address Climate Change and/or provokes World War 3, as they seem to be doing.
I'm not going to claim to be morally superior - I am making a pragmatic choice about the people I care about. But more to the point, you are actively delusional if you think the left at this stage has any hope of breaking the duopoly and making all these big changes and stopping genocide.
"No you don't get it - we just need a few more people and the duopoly is finished!" What are you, 12? If we want to effect actual change, organize on a local level and start flipping seats in state legislatures, representatives in the house, etc.
It's ludicrous to believe anywhere near a majority can occur when you have exactly fuck all for a track record to back it up, and that's not even talking of how impossible it would be for any leftist executive to do anything in a largely conservative government with checks and balances.
Use your brain and think about how best to achieve your goals: a vote for the mildly more left candidate today (the one that will at least continue democracy and not gun down leftists) has a much better chance for the future than letting the Right win. If you think "if the right wins and things get bad enough, the worker revolution will be upon us!" then you're even more delusional than I thought. Accelerationist nonsense like that will just make things worse for the climate and accomplish little, as there is still no way the American public would ever go for a leftist revolution (much less win it).
So tell me, what's your plan besides cry about Kamala online and yell at people for making the pragmatic choice?
So you do not pragmatically care about Palestinians, got it.
"No you don't get it - we just need a few more people and the duopoly is finished!" What are you, 12? If we want to effect actual change, organize on a local level and start flipping seats in state legislatures, representatives in the house, etc.
Utter fantasy to believe that this is possible.
Use your brain and think about how best to achieve your goals: a vote for the mildly more left candidate today
Only ones are Stein and De La Crúz.
has a much better chance for the future than letting the Right win
You're voting for the right, lmao.
If you think "if the right wins and things get bad enough, the worker revolution will be upon us!" then you're even more delusional than I thought.
I don't, you're the one voting for genocide and continuous right wing slides.
So tell me, what's your plan besides cry about Kamala online and yell at people for making the pragmatic choice?
I simply will not support genocide, and will advocate others to organize and join leftist orgs, rather than continuing to goosestep with the DNC and GOP as they thrust the world into chaos. You'd actually vote for Hitler if 101% Hitler was running against him, and you would shame Leftists for not "siding with the left leaning candidate." Hilarious.
So you think it is impossible for the left in the US to win then, got it.
Stein is a moron going for the top of the heap without any support whatsoever and only serves as a spoiler to let the right win.
The Dems are slightly left, so I will vote for the best option available.
So you don't believe the left has a chance of flipping local seats and building support, but also want people to join leftist orgs for...reasons?
What's the plan for when Republicans strip more worker protections, finish off Palestine, and make being in a union illegal to please their corporate masters?
Your plan of "I simply won't support genocide" does at least as much as me voting for Kamala, that is to say, relatively little. You "not supporting" something doesn't stop it from happening lol
The dems are not slightly left, they are right wingers, just not far right. You are voting for the right wing, for the billionaires, the weapon manufacturers, the oligarchs.
You don't seem willing to listen to a counterargument, but just in case, you might need to consider where you would draw your red line for the lesser evil party. Cause there is necessarily for everyone a red line beyond which both parties would be indistinguishable (think of Hitler and the other party being again Hitler but if he funded the healthcare system a little more - these two alternatives gotta be universally indistinguishable). And since we established that, you should probably realize that for a lot of people that red line has been crossed long ago.
Dems are also far right, they just have different expressions of reactionary sentiment. A lot of it is wrapped up in wanting to appear progressive in comparison, but if you look at their real policies the material impacts are often far more negative, being more palatabke means by which to subjugate the masses to capital. Democrats have also been the essential supporters of every major foreign policy conflagration ostensibly done by Republicans.
They offer a small subset of "social" issues they coopted from the left and then gave themselves credit for. But it is not consistent. They are throwing immigrants under the bus, for example. And they are the consistent opponents of liberatory social change right up until in polls well and they can coopt and pretend to have always supported it.
But the type of support is always contradictory and often performative. They will wear "protect trans kids" pins and then support anti-homeless pogroms that disproportionately impact trans kids. They will attempt to use correct pronouns and then make it as hard as possible to get gender affirming healthcare. The only liberation they offer is to be assimilated into the capitakist nightmare and to suffer disproportionately while being told to be grateful.
Yeah totally, they give too little, it's always performative, to distract and to use as talking points, they never roll back republican legislation (Clinton for example) and they always have the same line with republicans for the core capitalist matters, like foreign policy, military, police budget etc. It's a made up dilemma 100%.
I just have to somehow approach people who disagree, I can't be so absolute, that's all lol
just not far right
They are very far right. Biden government policies are on the right of Polish PiS, a protofascist party.
I've heard it all before about how the Dems are right wingers, and I agree, to a point. In practical terms, they are the best option available to make positive change for the things that matter to me, so they will have my support. That's it. As for a line they must cross to lose said support...I'll play it by ear and decide then. I don't bother with tying myself to lines in the sand because things are always more complicated than they seem.
I will continue to vote for the Democrats because they mostly represent what I want of the two parties I am forced to work with because of our shit system. That's all there is to it.
So you think it is impossible for the left in the US to win then, got it.
Electorally, yes.
Stein is a moron going for the top of the heap without any support whatsoever and only serves as a spoiler to let the right win.
The right wins if the Dems or Reps win.
The Dems are slightly left, so I will vote for the best option available.
The Dems are right-wing, increasingly so over time.
So you don't believe the left has a chance of flipping local seats and building support, but also want people to join leftist orgs for...reasons?
The electoral system is designed to prevent leftist change. Winning minor, local seats is not only ridiculously difficult, but upon gaining support the DNC and GOP collaborates against leftists, like what happened in GA and PA with PSL. Joining an org is so that leftists can build up dual power outsids the electoral system, revolution is the only way to avoid climate disaster and world war 3.
What's the plan for when Republicans strip more worker protections, finish off Palestine, and make being in a union illegal to please their corporate masters?
The same as when Democrats strip more worker protections, finish off Palestine, and make being in a union illegal to please their corporate masters. Encourage people to join leftist orgs like PSL, FRSO, and abandon the right-wing Democrats.
Your plan of "I simply won't support genocide" does at least as much as me voting for Kamala, that is to say, relatively little. You "not supporting" something doesn't stop it from happening lol
You supporting something certainly helps it happen.
Is there a line that the Dems could cross for you to abandon them? As the US gets more fascist due to Capitalist decay, which is accelerating, is there a jumping off point? Or will you stand in line with the US Empire the whole way?
Ah, there it is. You are just an accelerationist. Good luck with the revolution. Don't be surprised when you get betrayed by the insiders who got more people to back them and end up against the wall like most leftist groups in popular revolutions.
I'll waste more breath when you grow up a little and understand how the world works a bit more, lol. I'm sure more leftist infighting and crying online will help the cause until then!
You can't respond to any of my points, so you project and call me an accelerationist for saying Capitalism is getting worse and we need to have a revolution. You can't make this up, you declined to answer my question about a jumping off point from the Dems because that point doesn't exist for you. Genocide is okay for you then, everything is justified except fighting back.