The Vote Socialist campaign stands unequivocally with the Palestinian people as they stand strong in the face of one year of US-Israeli genocide in Gaza.
The Vote Socialist campaign stands unequivocally with the Palestinian people as they stand strong in the face of one year of US-Israeli genocide in Gaza.
For decades, we have been in the streets in defense of the Palestinian people, and will continue to fight until the total liberation of Palestine!
You're viewing part of a thread.
So you do not pragmatically care about Palestinians, got it.
"No you don't get it - we just need a few more people and the duopoly is finished!" What are you, 12? If we want to effect actual change, organize on a local level and start flipping seats in state legislatures, representatives in the house, etc.
Utter fantasy to believe that this is possible.
Use your brain and think about how best to achieve your goals: a vote for the mildly more left candidate today
Only ones are Stein and De La Crúz.
has a much better chance for the future than letting the Right win
You're voting for the right, lmao.
If you think "if the right wins and things get bad enough, the worker revolution will be upon us!" then you're even more delusional than I thought.
I don't, you're the one voting for genocide and continuous right wing slides.
So tell me, what's your plan besides cry about Kamala online and yell at people for making the pragmatic choice?
I simply will not support genocide, and will advocate others to organize and join leftist orgs, rather than continuing to goosestep with the DNC and GOP as they thrust the world into chaos. You'd actually vote for Hitler if 101% Hitler was running against him, and you would shame Leftists for not "siding with the left leaning candidate." Hilarious.
So you think it is impossible for the left in the US to win then, got it.
Stein is a moron going for the top of the heap without any support whatsoever and only serves as a spoiler to let the right win.
The Dems are slightly left, so I will vote for the best option available.
So you don't believe the left has a chance of flipping local seats and building support, but also want people to join leftist orgs for...reasons?
What's the plan for when Republicans strip more worker protections, finish off Palestine, and make being in a union illegal to please their corporate masters?
Your plan of "I simply won't support genocide" does at least as much as me voting for Kamala, that is to say, relatively little. You "not supporting" something doesn't stop it from happening lol
The dems are not slightly left, they are right wingers, just not far right. You are voting for the right wing, for the billionaires, the weapon manufacturers, the oligarchs.
You don't seem willing to listen to a counterargument, but just in case, you might need to consider where you would draw your red line for the lesser evil party. Cause there is necessarily for everyone a red line beyond which both parties would be indistinguishable (think of Hitler and the other party being again Hitler but if he funded the healthcare system a little more - these two alternatives gotta be universally indistinguishable). And since we established that, you should probably realize that for a lot of people that red line has been crossed long ago.
Dems are also far right, they just have different expressions of reactionary sentiment. A lot of it is wrapped up in wanting to appear progressive in comparison, but if you look at their real policies the material impacts are often far more negative, being more palatabke means by which to subjugate the masses to capital. Democrats have also been the essential supporters of every major foreign policy conflagration ostensibly done by Republicans.
They offer a small subset of "social" issues they coopted from the left and then gave themselves credit for. But it is not consistent. They are throwing immigrants under the bus, for example. And they are the consistent opponents of liberatory social change right up until in polls well and they can coopt and pretend to have always supported it.
But the type of support is always contradictory and often performative. They will wear "protect trans kids" pins and then support anti-homeless pogroms that disproportionately impact trans kids. They will attempt to use correct pronouns and then make it as hard as possible to get gender affirming healthcare. The only liberation they offer is to be assimilated into the capitakist nightmare and to suffer disproportionately while being told to be grateful.
Yeah totally, they give too little, it's always performative, to distract and to use as talking points, they never roll back republican legislation (Clinton for example) and they always have the same line with republicans for the core capitalist matters, like foreign policy, military, police budget etc. It's a made up dilemma 100%.
I just have to somehow approach people who disagree, I can't be so absolute, that's all lol
just not far right
They are very far right. Biden government policies are on the right of Polish PiS, a protofascist party.
I've heard it all before about how the Dems are right wingers, and I agree, to a point. In practical terms, they are the best option available to make positive change for the things that matter to me, so they will have my support. That's it. As for a line they must cross to lose said support...I'll play it by ear and decide then. I don't bother with tying myself to lines in the sand because things are always more complicated than they seem.
I will continue to vote for the Democrats because they mostly represent what I want of the two parties I am forced to work with because of our shit system. That's all there is to it.
So you think it is impossible for the left in the US to win then, got it.
Electorally, yes.
Stein is a moron going for the top of the heap without any support whatsoever and only serves as a spoiler to let the right win.
The right wins if the Dems or Reps win.
The Dems are slightly left, so I will vote for the best option available.
The Dems are right-wing, increasingly so over time.
So you don't believe the left has a chance of flipping local seats and building support, but also want people to join leftist orgs for...reasons?
The electoral system is designed to prevent leftist change. Winning minor, local seats is not only ridiculously difficult, but upon gaining support the DNC and GOP collaborates against leftists, like what happened in GA and PA with PSL. Joining an org is so that leftists can build up dual power outsids the electoral system, revolution is the only way to avoid climate disaster and world war 3.
What's the plan for when Republicans strip more worker protections, finish off Palestine, and make being in a union illegal to please their corporate masters?
The same as when Democrats strip more worker protections, finish off Palestine, and make being in a union illegal to please their corporate masters. Encourage people to join leftist orgs like PSL, FRSO, and abandon the right-wing Democrats.
Your plan of "I simply won't support genocide" does at least as much as me voting for Kamala, that is to say, relatively little. You "not supporting" something doesn't stop it from happening lol
You supporting something certainly helps it happen.
Is there a line that the Dems could cross for you to abandon them? As the US gets more fascist due to Capitalist decay, which is accelerating, is there a jumping off point? Or will you stand in line with the US Empire the whole way?
Ah, there it is. You are just an accelerationist. Good luck with the revolution. Don't be surprised when you get betrayed by the insiders who got more people to back them and end up against the wall like most leftist groups in popular revolutions.
I'll waste more breath when you grow up a little and understand how the world works a bit more, lol. I'm sure more leftist infighting and crying online will help the cause until then!
You can't respond to any of my points, so you project and call me an accelerationist for saying Capitalism is getting worse and we need to have a revolution. You can't make this up, you declined to answer my question about a jumping off point from the Dems because that point doesn't exist for you. Genocide is okay for you then, everything is justified except fighting back.
Yes, if I had to pick between the immediate safety of my friends and family over the safety of random strangers, I will pick my friends and family. Truly a shocking revelation!
I've answered the question of where my line is to another user.
And yes, wanting a revolution is accelerationist nonsense - look at history and tell me how many popular uprisings actually made life better and for how long. Most revolutions aren't actually done by the "plucky group of militiamen," they are done by government insiders who use leftists to get a W and then boot them out.
Yes, if I had to pick between the immediate safety of my friends and family over the safety of random strangers, I will pick my friends and family. Truly a shocking revelation!
So, yes, genocide is okay by you as long as it's people overseas. Can't say I agree.
And yes, wanting a revolution is accelerationist nonsense - look at history and tell me how many popular uprisings actually made life better and for how long. Most revolutions aren't actually done by the "plucky group of militiamen," they are done by government insiders who use leftists to get a W and then boot them out.
Revolution isn't accelerarionist, accelerationism is different.
Secondly, the vast majority of Leftist revolutions have dramatically improved metrics like life expectancy, home ownership, literacy rates, and more, this is just unfathomably wrong. Read Blackshirts and Reds, specifically the second chapter but I'd read from the start.
Yes, genocide is acceptable insofar as I know my actions won't stop it, and I'm not gambling with the lives of people I care about over "maybe the revolution will stop it eventually" or whatever nonsense you believe will happen.
And no, I'm not reading a book about your claims. This is an internet argument lol
The bottom line remains this: calling every Dem supporter genocide lover and telling them how evil they are isn't going to do shit for the cause besides piss people off and undermine thr message. The vast majority of discourse online is about how obnoxious you guys are lmao
Yes, genocide is acceptable insofar as I know my actions won't stop it, and I'm not gambling with the lives of people I care about over "maybe the revolution will stop it eventually" or whatever nonsense you believe will happen.
You are gambling with their lives, the Dems continue to push right as Capitalism decays. You have no solution for this, just acceptance. Thinking revolution is nonsense is also ridiculous.
And no, I'm not reading a book about your claims. This is an internet argument lol
You made the claims, I offered a source thoroughly debunking them. If you think the Tsars, the fascist Batista regime, or the nationalist Kuomintang were better than the Communists in Russia, Cuba, and China, you have no clue what you're talking about, nor how brutal previous conditions were.
The bottom line remains this: calling every Dem supporter genocide lover and telling them how evil they are isn't going to do shit for the cause besides piss people off and undermine thr message. The vast majority of discourse online is about how obnoxious you guys are lmao
You literally admitted to being fine with genocide, I don't see how it gets more mask-off than that.
My point is that your entire premise of "don't vote for the Democrats" while plotting a revolution is nonsensical.
If you think both need to be overthrown, why allow the much worse option for the climate and average person to get into power by withholding your vote? Does it not make more sense to pick the least damaging option available to you while plotting for long term goals? Are you okay with more people dying from the Republican party's policies when you can actively stall/stop them?
And if you think I'm mask off or whatever platitudes you tell yourself for "being fine with genocide" go off I guess. Nuance never hasnt been the far left's speciality (except when infighting).
My point is that your entire premise of "don't vote for the Democrats" while plotting a revolution is nonsensical.
You haven't supported that point.
If you think both need to be overthrown, why allow the much worse option for the climate and average person to get into power by withholding your vote? Does it not make more sense to pick the least damaging option available to you while plotting for long term goals? Are you okay with more people dying from the Republican party's policies when you can actively stall/stop them?
The Republicans are monstrously evil, but are no way "much worse" than the monstrously evil Democrats, because both serve their donors alone.
And if you think I'm mask off or whatever platitudes you tell yourself for "being fine with genocide" go off I guess. Nuance never hasnt been the far left's speciality (except when infighting).
You said you were okay with genocide, said you refuse to read books, and never responded to my counters to your ridiculous claims supporting the Tsars, Batista regime, and Kuomintang over the Leftists.
Yes, genocide is acceptable insofar as I know my actions won’t stop it, and I’m not gambling with the lives of people I care about over “maybe the revolution will stop it eventually” or whatever nonsense you believe will happen.
As capitalism decays fascism becomes a certainty. I would suggest reading "The Economy and Class Structure of German Fascism" which offers a political-economic analysis from the perspective of a German who had access to the semi-internal communications of the capitalist class as capitalism was entering its fascist stage in Germany.
If you aren't joining a socialist org that is moving toward the abolition of capitalism you're lying down and accepting fascism will happen.
Stop pretending you don't have any agency and go join an org.
look at history and tell me how many popular uprisings actually made life better
Cuba, Vietnam, China, USSR, hell even the dprk. Look at life expectancy, literacy, infant and maternal mortality, extreme poverty metrics, worker self management systems, and moving from dictatorship to soviet style proletarian democracy
Most revolutions aren’t actually done by the “plucky group of militiamen,” they are done by government insiders who use leftists to get a W and then boot them out.
All of these revolutions were lead by organizations that didn't have government insider connections like that.
Cuba, Vietnam, China, USSR, hell even the dprk. Look at life expectancy, literacy, infant and maternal mortality, extreme poverty metrics, worker self management systems, and moving from dictatorship to soviet style proletarian democracy
You are factually correct, but this is rhetorically a poor point to make unless your goal is to have the argument be an endless quagmire of tangents upon tangents (which I don't think it is). Clearly you would generally know better than I, but I can't help but feel that a simpler answer like:
"The liberal revolutions against feudalism broadly had a progressive character, though feudalists and conservatives generally portrayed them as barbarous, traitorous, heretical, etc. Socialist revolutions were likewise broadly progressive, with their rightward opponents portraying them the same way"
Would be a good way to touch on this point generally without just begging them so directly to vomit every red scare myth and reactionary reddit thread they've ever seen at you, or just leave because those things went through their mind and that was enough.
Good point, thanks for the criticism