1年前

unholy software..

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Ah yes, windows where I have to somehow figure out how to install the drivers for my network adapter before I can actually connect to the internet, on top of having to go to a different website for each device that needs a driver to find the correct one, download it and install it.
Vs Linux, where network (and most essential) drivers are baked into the kernel, and all other drivers (for peripherals, etc) can be had via a package manager, where you can often find free and open source solutions. Also, video drivers are automatically installed with the OS (provided you are using a distro with a proper graphical installer for ease of use, cough use Endeavour cough), and automatically updated when the system is updated.
- Sounds like you clearly haven't used Windows in over a decade, or even close to two.
  I haven't had to install a network driver since Windows XP. Even then it had drivers for most cards built in.
  
  I haven’t tried to use Linux for desktop in a while, probably as long as they haven’t used windows. Because in my mind what they said is 100% backwards.
  Seems like both have matured quite a bit
  
  And Windows update takes care of 99.9% of missing drivers automatically.
  
  You're right about the network drivers, but on things like serial drivers, Windows is a fucking nightmare. Hell, I can't use some devices because FTDI drivers will brick the device if it decides its a knockoff of their chip. Getting anything working that isn't consumer grade is a shit show.
  
  Serial drivers? Are we talking rs232? (Checks what tf ftdi is)
  Ah yes. We really are talking about very old school stuff. It brings back memories.
  This week I learned we have a waterslide connected through rs232 to a pi in our network. How's that for a IOT discovery. Working for a medium sized municipality really shows you all the bonkers solutions (and implementations) out there. If you can think a IT horror up, chances are good somebody really has created it and is using it commercially.
  Back to your issue, which is more a Ftdi issue then a windows issue since they themselves create the crashing drivers. And I can see how an old school serial port, connected to a modern pc can result in all kinds of havoc when done wrong.
  I see FTDI also have usb to rs232 solutions. That should work... Mostly. (as long as the solution doesn't go looking for an irq or other horror from the past.)
  I'm really getting curious for what use case you're still using rs232. Most network gear these days is perfectly managed without it.
  
  USB to serial converters are what use these drivers and they're used all day long for IOT stuff
  
  Make that 2 decades I gather. Maybe even 3. This sounds like nt4 territory. Maybe barelu6 win2k.
  
  I was a windows user up until about a year and a half ago, and had this issue as recently as Windows 10. I had to use my phone as a tether to go download the drivers for my TP-Link Archer T6E. Also had the issue with my MSI z97m Gaming where I had to go find drivers for the built-in wired network adapter, again using my phone as a tether, on Windows 8.1
  
  Idk, I just built a PC with Realtek mobo integrated wifi, we couldn't even install the OS because it didn't detect the NIC and Windows forced us to sign in before it would continue the installation.
  Had to lug the machine to a router to get anywhere, and still had to download the Asus mobo software to get the wireless going. Wasn't convenient in the least.
  
  So.... You didn't check your installation requirements. Is that what you're saying?
  And this wouldn't have happened with Linux?
  
  And this wouldn't have happened with Linux?
  Nope. Because Realtek commit their drivers directly to the Linux kernel, they may be a bit slower getting the driver to the consumer depending on their internal team that's developing/handling the driver and how long the code review takes on the kernel maintainer side but even then you can generally get the driver early e.g. before it's merged into the kernel via a dkms a.k.a out-of-tree driver (easily found in something like the AUR). Once the Realtek WiFi driver is merged you don't have to worry about it because it'll be in every distro with the following kernel release.
  
  We had a USB prepared with drivers in advance, but that's useless when you can't get to a desktop. I admittedly didn't realize you couldn't even install Windows 11 without an active network.
  Linux would at least let me install the base system and configure the drivers after. Funny enough that USB mentioned is my ventoy and we did experiment with Linux Mint before we started on Windows. It found the NIC and network on the live ISO with no effort, I honestly thought it would be smooth sailing after that experiment.
  I would have just gone with mint personally but wasn't my system, was just helping a friend.
  
  For in the future, I suggest using USB tethering via your smartphone to get WiFi to the device.
  
  That's big brain stuff, will keep that in mind next time
  
  Since drivers are so specifc, people's anecdotal experiences with having to install them is never going to be shared.
  IE, I had to install a wired NIC driver just last month on a fresh Windows 10 22H2 for a Dell laptop that was no more than a few years old.
  
  When I last installed Windows I had to google where do download Libreoffice, Firefox, Steam, Audacity, VLC, Gimp and a lot more software.
  On Linux most came preinstalled, the rest was one click in the Repository ("Store" for Generation Smartphone)
  
  Just use winget in PowerShell.
  That's a "terminal" for generation typewriter.
  
  Chocolatey, winget
  All that stuff they listed is packaged, versioned, and handled. I'm pretty sure there's gui's too, if you're into that
  
  For chocolatey, maybe. I haven't seen a Winget GUI yet.
  Microsoft really should do that, but I think the "but what about our App Store numbers" guys would rather that didn't happen. I don't believe that anybody outside of people who were already otherwise Linux users has touched winget.
  
  When I last installed Windows I had to google where do download [...] On Linux most came preinstalled
  You can't have it both ways.
  On one day, you complain about all the so called "bloatware" that's preinstalled on Windows (more "pre-linked" and easily installed, and these "links" are easily deleted).
  The next day, you complain that the specific subset of software you want to use is not preinstalled on Windows.
  Lastly, the way you go about finding where to get your software, that's more of a philosophical question. Do I want someone else to curate a list of available software, or do I want to visit the publisher's website and get it directly from the source?
  
  At least on Debian/Ubuntu I can use tasksel to select a useful preset of packages right while installing. Base is just a text mode shell with minimal command line tools, Server has some Network Stuff, LXQT, Gnome and so on... for the total N00b it is fine to default to KDE or Gnome, I prefer LXQT though. And tbh, I think Firefox, Libreoffice and VLC are useful preinstall in nearly every use case while the usual stuff on Windows is pretty useless (Another Antivirus? Really? A trial version of a paint programm inferior to Gimp 1.0? Office 365?)
  
  while the usual stuff on Windows is pretty useless
  "useless" or "useful" to you. That's my point. Someone who does not have any use for Libreoffice will get just as annoyed as you would get with a pre-linked Office-Suite.
- This doesn't happen in windows anymore. Over 95% of all drivers auto install.
  
  Yeah the last time I had to install drivers for a network card on Windows was over a decade ago
  
  I had to install a network adapter driver the other day. Had to use my wife's computer to download into a flash drive and bring it over to my computer with zero network connectivity.
  Granted, this only happened because my network card was broken.
  
  In my old tech bin there's a bag of usb WiFi dongles and a thumb drive with all the drivers.
  
  I work in a Win-centric PC shop. USB dongle (WiFi or Ethernet adapter) is by far the best way. Virtually all drivers download automatically with rare exceptions (specifically GPU drivers or weird import components).
- I just installed Windows on my daughter’s new [to her] computer last night and this did not happen. Don’t get me wrong, I loathe Windows, but c’mon.
  
  Yeah I've installed Windows about ten times in the last ten years for various people and I've never encountered any of this. It is as close to flawless as I can ask for.
  
  I had the ethernet in my desktop mobo not work when I tried upgrading to win11. Worked fine in 10 but no internet on 11.
  I also had a very difficult time getting a Xbox wireless controller adapter working on win 10 without spending about 2 hours searching.
  Windows usually works but sometimes it just fucking doesn't. Linux isn't perfect either but I usually don't have issues with my Ethernet ports not working.
  
  I think hiccups are going to be inevitable at times no matter what you’re using, but I don’t expect total disaster to befall you either, no matter what you’re using. I will admit that I was miffed as hell when that TPM bullshit came up when I was installing Win11 last night but a quick download of Rufus and a bootable USB installation cleared that up right quick.
- What kind of weird or shitty NIC you're using that needs a specific driver for Windows?
  
  Lenovo IdeaPad Pro 5 Gen 8 Notebook comes with a MEDIATEK MT7922. Windows 11 does not want to install unless you circumvent the requirement for Internet or supply it with a manually downloaded driver.
  Linux? Just works.
  
  TP-Link Archer T6E, one of the most popular on the market
  
  The wireless kind, presumably. Those always need their own firmware and therefore their own driver.
- I tend to have driver issues more so with Linux than windows in my experience. Both seem to be capable at the very least of automatically installing a lot of the drivers without user intervention.
  
  You'd have more driver issues with Windows if you used hardware that wasn't already being sold with Windows pre-installed by OEMs/system integrators. Comparatively Linux supports a wider verity of hardware for much longer, Windows on the other hand only really supports consumer grade hardware that's likely to have it pre-installed anyway with a limited (and often predestined) EOL.
  If manufacturers treated Linux desktop as first class like with Windows or Linux on Servers then there'd be a very small amount of unsupported & likely obsolete hardware.
  
  I'm not sure how any of the different hardware components I bought to build my system had Windows pre-installed, considering I had to install Windows myself.
  
  Sir, do you know what OEMs/system integrators mean?
  \ You're very likely using hardware components OEMs/system integrators use in their consumer products (in fact I'd bet on it), in which incentivizes hardware manufacturers to write & maintain proper Windows drivers for said components, because of money and contracts; that is until the hardware goes EOL and the development and maintenance ceases to continue from that point.
  That's where Linux is different; it may not be able to support all consumer hardware from day one (if at all in some cases; tho this is getting better with time), since all the (in-tree) drivers are open source there isn't a true EOL and the driver can receive proper maintenance, improvements, security patches, etc. long after the support has gone EOL on Windows.
  \ This very thing is why Linux is so good at reviving hardware that Windows doesn't or can't support anymore.
  In fact Linux probably officially supports more consumer grade hardware then Windows 11 specifically because of the TPM tomfoolery that blocks hardware from installing it in the Microsoft approved fashion (even though the hardware is easily supported through unofficial means).
  
  My system is one I custom built myself. I don't really think I've ever owned an OEM desktop before. The driver issues I tend to have was with multiple USB WiFi adapters I've tried with my computer. I had to do some really weird black magic shit to get them to work properly. I also couldn't run my TV at 4K 60hz on Linux, but I could on Windows. Freesync has also given me issues when trying to activate it. Not the fault of Linux if manufacturers don't give it proper support, but this has been my experience unfortunately. Windows would indeed have more driver issues if less drivers were being officially supported like if any other OS didn't get proper driver support, so I'm not really sure what you're trying to point out to me. What exactly is "consumer grade hardware"? Doesn't Windows run on other things as well besides just your typical desktop?
  
  The driver issues I tend to have was with multiple USB WiFi adapters I've tried with my computer.
  I just use WiFi tethering which circumvents that whole thing, so I can't speak on that.
  I also couldn't run my TV at 4K 60hz on Linux, but I could on Windows.
  This could be a few things, from the drivers to your display output configuration. I have a 4K 60hz TV that works perfectly fine with Linux, the display output just wasn't configured correctly. This is something Wayland can indirectly streamline for us in the very near future as it adds features that allows developers to better handle & support various displays.
  Freesync has also given me issues when trying to activate it.
  This is unfortunately an area that's all up to one entity (AMD) to sort out but they just haven't. The way they'd achieve this is straight forward on paper; they'd have to make a FreeSync standard driver and provide similar GUI tools.
  don't really think I've ever owned an OEM desktop before.
  That doesn't mean you're not using the components found in common OEM pre-builds.
  Doesn't Windows run on other things as well besides just your typical desktop?
  Not really, no.
  \ There's Windows server but it's woefully unused and is basically dead. Why even use it when Microsoft Azure (Linux based) exists. Amongst the security issues raised by various cyber security professionals.
  \ Additionally the driver problem is flipped in this area; I could grab just about any server hardware and it'll likely work with Linux no problem. However with Windows, I'd have to look specifically for Windows compatible hardware, as there's just not much insensitive to support Windows in the server space.
  \ You can find Windows XP running on random legacy crap. But as of modern Windows, a Microsoft Surface and Valves Steam Deck is about as unique/exotic as the hardware gets.
  \ Windows just isn't flexible enough to be used outside of the desktop in any real compacity and Valves Steam Deck is great example of this. The Steam Deck may have the drivers to support Windows but navigating it is a whole different story.
- I've only ever had to search for NIC drivers on Linux.
  Windows usually packages most drivers into the update process automatically and the device manager page can find whatever drivers you need for whatever hardware it can detect.
- When I first tried Windows XP, I had to figure out how to install storage drivers in order to install the OS.
  
  And back at that time if you installed any flavor of Linux you were lucky if the OS install didn't fuck itself over, also God help you find drivers, assuming that they even existed. At least xp would function.
  As of windows 10, windows will always function on pretty much any hardware out of the box. Some obscure Chinese WiFi dongles might have some issues, but main board drivers are always right there.
  Linux users have this weird echo chamber where they seem to think that Linux just works. It can but it's a 50/50 chance that it won't and you'll spend hours troubleshooting. Also os updates on Linux have a high probability of borking the entire os.
  Windows, for all of it's many many faults, generally does "just work". It might not be perfect, but it will function.
  
  And back at that time if you installed any flavor of Linux you were lucky if the OS install didn’t fuck itself over
  I was using Linux religiously back then, and this is false. As long as there's a driver for all of your hardware, it generally worked fine.
  But that “as long as” is doing some heavy lifting. The usual suspects were pretty much the same as now: Broadcom, NeoMagic, and NVIDIA. Some cheap printers and modems were problematic as well, but if you paid for good hardware, it would probably work.
  
  And that's the rub. You have to very specifically choose your hardware for Linux. Or at least you had to back then. It's not quite so bad now, but back then it was a real showstopper. Especially broadcom. That caused me no end of issues back in the day.
  
  If you want to have some fun install Windows 10 on a hard drive. Disk usage will go to 100%. It doesn't do this on SSDs except maybe very rarely. I'm pretty sure this is not a bug, but intentional so that people will buy a new PC. Windows 7 will run flawlessly on the same hardware. Although Linux is starting to demand higher hardware specs than it deserves.
  
  Do you realize WINXP is TWENTY FOUR years old now???
  
  I do now. Was blissfully unaware of that particular milestone in making my feel my years until you mentioned it, however.
- I had a similar situation with my ryzen 1600 motherboard, except it was the sound card. Everytime windows updated it would dump the driver I installed and try another one that was broken. I had to keep my sound drivers on the desktop so I could reinstall them. This occurred even after I reinstalled windows 10 on a different ssd.
- The Rust based Cosmic DE is looking awesome.
  \ I can't wait to try it when it releases.
- Nowadays it's more of a fight against the update-provided drivers though.

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