Western media are slowly admitting that shills, propagandists, and putinbots were right all along.
Western media are slowly admitting that shills, propagandists, and putinbots were right all along.
Officials took cash and cryptocurrency and helped people to leave Ukraine, President Zelensky says.
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Which referendums are you referring to and does any country besides Russia or North Korea accept the results? Just an FYI elections in Russia itself are not free from corruption in any sense of the word. But I'm sure you take putin's word when he says their fair Lol 2014 is when Russian backed separatists began working in Ukraine, Russia has always been the aggressor and could've stopped the violence whenever they choose.
Which referendums are you referring to and does any country besides Russia or North Korea accept the results?
literally the consent "isn't there somebody you forgot to ask?" meme but with America
but this is also a very funny way of imagining how self-determination and independence movements work a lot of the time. Imagine a world where a newfound country breaks free from an existing one and then that newfound country sees that 90% of the UN, including the country they just broke free from, doesn't recognize them for doing that and they're just like "Well, shucks. I guess we're going back and re-joining the country again, because these people aren't ready to accept us yet!"
That's all on you for misunderstanding how being a country works. It doesn't matter that you hold elections but that you hold the monopoly of violence over the population. That's what gets you recognition. Color me shocked that you don't even know how the most rudimentary geopolitics works ..
What are you saying? The Ukrainian state held a monopoly of violence over the people of the Donbass and used it regularly since the coup in 2014. These people in turn declared independence in order to free themselves from this violence, but the Ukrainian state wouldn't have it. The only way to counter violent suppression is with violence. These people know this and it's why they invited Russian military intervention to their cause.
It wasn't a coup it was a revolution.
The Russo-Ukrainian War is an ongoing international conflict between Russia, alongside Russian-backed separatists, and Ukraine, which began in February 2014.
Are you saying they ::gasp:: used violence during a WAR? ThEy UsEd vIolEnCe DuRIng A wAr?!?
It wasn't a coup it was a revolution.
This is just copium. Whatever you believe, the result was a fascist Ukranian state that supports literal Nazis shelling civilians. What were they supposed to do, vote harder? Oh right, their voting rights were suppressed and their political parties banned from running in elections. At a certain point, when faced with violent suppression, violence become your only option.
Are you saying they ::gasp:: used violence during a WAR? ThEy UsEd vIolEnCe DuRIng A wAr?!?
You're the one who brought up violence. I'm simply trying to present the world to you as it is instead of through the filter of liberal propoganda that you so happily slurp up daily. That boot is so deep down your throat, maybe you should start an only fans.
It's copium but it's also provably wrong; the US came out and admitted they got Porochenko elected.
but we don't keep up with geopolitics apparently, while this dude is stuck in the 70s lol 🤓
Oh 💯. I was just pointing out that the human rights abuses committed by the fascist Ukranian state are unjustifiable regardless.
You're the ones that think Russia is still a bastion of Marxism. Get a clue, the Soviet Union is gone and it's not coming back anytime soon.
Nobody here thinks that Russia is "still a bastion of Marxism". Like literally nobody. You're a real laugh.
Yeah they banned parties that had ties to Russia AFTER THEY WERE INVADED. I brought up violence because you (like an idiot) thought every election should be legit.
I'd rather drink liberal media than whatever cool ade you're drinking especially when all I see is people in this thread using talking points that can be debunked with seconds of online searching. Cry more about Ukrainians being Nazis. Maybe that'll let you ignore Russian humans rights violations even harder.
Cry more about Ukrainians being Nazis.
You're a deplorable waste of bones and organs. When this war is over and there's a well armed Nazi militia committing pogroms and wreacking havock across Europe, I hope that you'll reconsider your position.
Cool
Yeah we all know you think nazis are cool, that's why you suck so much
I don't, but that won't stop you from believing whatever fantasies you find convenient. Explains a lot about how you maintain your delusional worldview.
Who has the monopoly of violence in Luhansk and Donetsk currently...?
A group that already has a presence in the UN? I was talking about how recognition works for countries. But low and behold that nuance escapes you. It's not my fault that u & 72 don't understand how international recognition and civil wars work.
It doesn’t matter that you hold elections but that you hold the monopoly of violence over the population. That’s what gets you recognition.
You're contradicting yourself you're contradictinnnggggg yourself hahaha it's okay to admit you exhausted your line of arguing and can't defend anything more. Come to the tankie side, it's not so bad. We're right all the time.
It's not my fault you don't know how occupation works. I'm specifically talking about a separatists Donbas that is able to fend off both Ukraine and Russia assaults could obtain recognition by the international community through securing it's borders. Of course you intentionally misunderstood what I'm saying at all times and declare victory by being a dumbass
But Donbass doesn't want to fight off Russia, they voted to join them, remember?
Your trolling is weak, please do better. You're entertaining but you need to step up your game.
Never met a true US civil war Confederate supporter, the south had their own government & constitution and voted to leave the union. I guess according to your logic the northern federal government was in the wrong in order to preserve the union cuz the south had elections & elections.
DID THE SLAVES VOTE IN THOSE ELECTIONS?
If Texas today had a vote to secede then they’d have absolutely every right to secede since the current electoral laws allow for the will of the people to be expressed.
The fact you didn’t stop to think about the slaves is because you’re a fucking cracker.
What does it matter if they did or not?
Which electoral law in Texas allows for this? Do you know what the supremacy clause is? Do you have a fucking Clue what you're talking about? Clearly you don't.
Much better, but you've activated my trap card
Whataboutism
Hey by your criteria all you gotta do is have a vote and boom bang beyowza u gotta new country. I suppose since you're a tankie you have to pretend things like national sovereignty just doesn't exist so u can get away with invading your neighbor.
You are changing the question, since Russia's violence does make Donbas part of Russia [to follow your logic] anway, but 72 was talking about democratic legitimacy and you damn well know it.
Democratic legitimacy? By internationallly recognizing any group that holds elections & breaks off a country? My good man, that's a terrible idea. Having a monopoly over violence is just a prerequisite but of course you knew that already since Donbas is occupied until legally resolved via treaty.
You think democracy is a terrible idea?
Of course they do. Libs hate democracy
Do you think every group that breaks off should be internationallly recognized dumbass? I like democracy but even the Greeks knew it has problems.
“That referendum and those elections don’t count because the USA said no” truly the voice of democracy and freedom.
I guess it was Putin that forced Zelenskyy to ban the political opposition? Because the damn Putin bots kept voting wrong.
Better than murdering them with polonium or putting them away in prison??? What a case of whatttaboutism. Did I ever make the claim that Ukraine was a bastion of democracy? No! your fevered brain is just rattling off talking points that you heard parroted in other threads. All you talking heads do is deflect. I say that Cuz I noticed you never made any attempt to claim that the referendums were legit. Which they weren't.
Why does “they voted for it repeatedly for a decade” not compute for you?
Are you of the opinion that the people in the east want to be part of Ukraine? Because they don’t, not after a decade of being brutalized by far right militias and seeing their cities shelled by the Ukrainian military and being denied the right to speak their language or practice their religion.
When you talk about “Russian backed separatists” you realize those separatists live there don’t you? You know what the word separatist means right?
Ukraine is using military force to deny them their right to self determination and the only reason you want to call the referendum illegitimate is because the people who live there chose the wrong answer.
You don’t value their views at all. They don’t matter to you. Which makes your position immoral and bloodthirsty.
Imma put this simply since you've started repeating yourself ad nauseam. Which 3 specific referendums are you referring to?
The one where they voted to secede and the multiple elections over the past decade where they voted for political parties that were then banned by the Ukrainian government which is now also refusing to hold constitutionally mandated elections for fear of how they’d vote again.
You didn’t answer my question:
Are you of the opinion that the people in the east want to be part of Ukraine?
I'd say the issue is split between those who want to join and those who want to stay. Your problem is with international law which respects the territorial sovereignty of nations and does not recognize a right of sucession by a group unless their right of internal self determination is compromised. In this case the Ukrainian constitution requires a referendum of all Ukrainian people. Keeping that one mind Here's a question for you:
Are you of the opinion that the people of chechnia wanted to be a part of Russia? Those guys full on declared independence & had elections in 1991 LMFAO
unless their right of internal self determination is compromised
Oh wait what’s that?
Lmao that’s what happened after the Ukrainian nationalists starting arming Nazi militias and banned their political parties you clown.
Banning their political parties and denying them the right to use their own language or practice their own religion or have their own political representation is called denying them their right to internal self determination.
Yeah banning pro Russian parties after Russia invaded them? Kinda a no brainer. + Russia was arming separatists first you chung mungus. I noticed you didn't answer my question
Are you of the opinion that the people of chechnia wanted to be a part of Russia? Those guys full on declared independence & the independence leader got 90% of the vote
You: let’s talk about something else because I’m feeling really fucking stupid right now
I guess you’re saying you fully support Putin’s crackdown on Grozny then right?
Get your deflecting moronic ass out of here and have a think about what you are actually supporting right now and today in Ukraine.
Because you’re not supporting democracy and freedom. Not at all.
I'm a realist because even though it's not morally right I understand that on the international stage might makes right. I don't agree with it but authoritarian countries with strong armies can coerce weaker countries & entities into capitulating (check out findlandization). If you were knowledgeable you'd know that no other countries recognized chechen independence either, perhaps because the ruskies declared the elections illegal the day before they happened... Reminds of another recent situation huh? It's okay to feel conflicted those contradictions can allow you to analyze why you held certain beliefs to begin with and is the beginning to a more complex understanding of events.
Those guys full on declared independence & the independence leader got 90% of the vote
I don't recognize the result of this referendum 🤓
I hope you meant that ironically lol Neither did the Russian government, they declared it illegal the day before the vote.
Since you want to quote laws you should be aware that since parts of the Donbass are occupied by Russia (namely Luhansk and Donetsk oblasts), Ukrainian law does not apply there. The territories, until the referendum was held, fell under UN Occupation Law because it was "actually placed under the authority of the adverse foreign armed forces"(source: https://casebook.icrc.org/a_to_z/glossary/occupation).
The occupation extends only to the territory where such authority has been established and can be exercised. A State's territory may therefore be partially occupied, in which case the laws and obligations of occupation apply only in the territory that is actually occupied. When a State consents to the presence of foreign troops there is no occupation.
Ukrainian law does not apply to territories under Russian authority.
Lol is that the Kremlin crackpot loop hole? Step 1 invade a country Step 2 have a totally legit election Step 3 annex after a totally not sham referendum Step 4 borders? What borders? Partial occupation is fine Step 5 blame Western powers
Rosemary DiCarlo said it best, "Unilateral actions aimed to provide a veneer of legitimacy to the attempted acquisition by force by one State of another State's territory while claiming to represent the will of the people, cannot be regarded as legal under international law"
Doesn't matter what you think, I'm using the UN definition which you should lap up like the good liberal dog you are. It's not even what I think, it's literally what UN countries have agreed to.
No you're not, u found 2 paragraphs that kinda say what you want and went from there. Do I need to repeat the steps to the crackpot Kremlin loop hole until you see how silly they sound?
Rosemary Anne DiCarlo (born 1947) is an American diplomat who has served as United Nations Under-Secretary-General for Political and Peacebuilding Affairs since May 2018. She previously served as acting United States Ambassador to the United Nations[1] following the resignation of Susan Rice to become the National Security Advisor.
I wonder if the ambassador to the United nations or a tankie on an Internet forum is more educated about UN occupations....
Your problem is with international law which respects the territorial sovereignty of nations and does not recognize a right of sucession by a group unless their right of internal self determination is compromised. In this case the Ukrainian constitution requires a referendum of all Ukrainian people
So when rightists oppose secession because, while they hate the ethnic Russians who want to leave, they don't want those ethnic Russians taking the land, etc. with them, we should be moved by this motivation and not consider the right of self-determination compromised?
No! your fevered brain is just rattling off talking points that you heard parroted in other threads.
LMAO you have zero self awareness and its kind of adorable. You aren't in your liberal echo chamber here and no amount of tantrum throwing is going to make anyone take you seriously.
What is your proof the referenda were not legit? You're the one who's going against the grain here, it's you who needs to prove your stance. I won't accept it without evidence.