Can Hexbears explain to me why I shouldn’t be afraid of Project 2025?

Liberals aren't opposed to Project 2025.

Have you heard a liberal plan for what they will do to prevent it once they have power? No of course you haven't. Simply having liberals in charge is all they care about, they have no intent to create policy to prevent or reduce its potential later.

Project 2030 will happen if Project 2025 does not, because liberals are not actually opposed to it, they are simply using it as a tool to get votes.

The democrats and the republicans are on the same team. They are tag teaming the working class into this outcome so that the working class does not pursue an option different to either of them. They are content with it happening either in 1 year or in 6 years. They don't mind either of these outcomes, as long as you and everyone else isn't fighting for a real opposition.

The world cannot afford a fascist America.

The world has been living with one for a long time now. Way before Trump ever ran for office.

The world cannot afford a fascist America. Imagine Hitler with nukes

we've had this since the 50's? it was not the character of the US regime that stopped the US from using nuclear weapons to enact a genocide, but a credible retaliatory threat from the Soviet Union.

e: we actually have precedent for this, the literal Nazis produced a lot of but did not end up using chemical weapons because the allies also produced a large quantity & kept them in a state of readiness near the front to retaliate.

Imagine Hitler with nukes.

you should be so scared of project 2025 that you question why the republican's only mainstream opponents don't treat them like the terrorists they are, and instead constantly call for bipartisanship and adopt their policies as their own to compete for the title of 'Most Racist'.

We are already Hitler with nukes to the rest of the world

Because it's effectively already happened. The judiciary is fully illegitimate and holds dictatorial power; whether it wields that power now or in two years or in four years barely matters since nothing we can do will prevent it. You can put all your energy into the unfixably broken electoral system in order to barely slow the rot, thereby legitimizing that system, or you can accept now that America is DEAD and begin acting accordingly.

A vote for Biden is approval of Biden, it legitimises him.
Biden is committing genocide. Voting for him legitimises genocide, it trivializes and normalises it. From this point on, if Biden wins, Dems will only get more brutal. A democratic party that knows people don't even give a shit about mass murder, will be completely unhinged.

On the other hand you have project 2025, which the Dems have no plans of averting, and a platform that is more or less already being implemented. There is no left-wing movements threatening the state. There were left-wing movements under Trump, because he was reprehensible even to the liberals. The next republican won't be.

The Freikorps operated with the blessing of the SPD. In this analogy of yours, the democrats are the SPD. Giving the SPD legitimacy that they could then give the Freikorps was not a good thing.

Finally: whatever it is you think should be done, must be done now. We do not have the luxury of time. We do not have a few more years. The collapsing climate does not allow us to just extend time another election cycle. We cannot wait for a better presidential election.

Imagine Hitler with nukes

The american empire is already commiting a mechanised genocide, this is already happening right now. It is shockingly naive to believe after all we've seen that liberals and the majority of american people (including all thier client states) arent fascist nazis right now.

I am reminded of how the KPD getting its leaders murdered by Freikorps thugs during the Spartacist uprising

These Freikorps thugs were sent by the SPD. It's in the interest of both liberals and conservatives to fight leftists, both liberalism and conservatism are rightwing, capitalist, imperialist and deeply chauvinist ideologies, one is just more focussed on hegemonial control and the other more on open violence. You cannot fight for queer liberation, or the rights of any other marginalized group such as America's black community, immigrants or indigenous peoples, with Bidenite Democrats, the last 4 years with its constant onslaught of anti-queer and especially anti-trans legislation (and also the uninterrupted continuation of an ever brutalizing border regime and the steady increase of police militarization) have proven this. The only Democrat opposition to trans genocide we've seen in that timeframe has been on the state level, by individual actors, the Democrats as a federal-level institution are downright scared of being too openly supportive of trans rights, Clinton as a prototypical member of the DNC establishment has more or less stated that she views our rights as a fringe issue that poses a political liability and Biden has only started voicing support for trans people when election season went into full swing.

I'm not telling Americans not to vote for Biden in November, i honestly may do so if i was Amerikan, but i'd probably do so by mail-in ballot from abroad because if i would live in Amerika, my top priority would be to get the fuck out. These are the reasonable options for US trans people, either leaving the country or work on community organizing and prepare for mass civil unrest, because mass civil unrest is the only thing that will stop the clericofascist mob. Biden won't do that, or he would have put more effort into clamping down on a movement that tried a coup and wanted to murder leading members of his party when he got into office. He's too comfortable with fascism to actually stop it, and he doesn't even meaningfully stall it.

So yes, i'm worried about the trans-exterminationist agenda of the US far right, it's a main political concern of mine because it directly affects my life even here in Europe that Reaganite nazi orgs like the Heritage Foundation are actively financing and supporting anti-trans activism here. But none of this has gotten better under Biden, and he will not change that, because he needs a continued threat to marginalized people to browbeat them into voting for him. Democrats are not allies. All they have to offer is a false sense of safety, the illusion that you can vote yourself out of the existential threat that Republicans already pose. You can't. You can try stalling for four more years, sure, but has that stalling actually worked in the last 4? And even if Biden wins the election, will he be able to govern afterwards or will there be another coup attempt that may work better this time?

When you focus on electoralism as the core strategy, you're playing the wrong game. There is no safe option to vote for trans rights in the US. The American left needs to prepare for worst case scenarios instead of putting its hopes in an eroding system that never was designed to serve their interests in the first place. There needs to be real thought put into all possible outcomes, what to do under another Biden term, what to do when Trump gets elected and what to do when he steals the election, and all of these scenarios are dire for trans people and require strategies that lie outside electoral politics.

Well as a minority living in America I'm more terrified of the dems normalizing genocide, normalizing the repression of activist groups and charging them thru RICO, normalizing anti immigrant sentiment by surpassing Trump's deportation numbers and making his border laws more repressive

Somehow that shit seems a little more relevant to me than some hypothetical about Republicans fucking up already fucked up courts, taxing poor people more and shuttering an already half shuttered department of education

If Genocide is already normalized wtf do I have to fear anymore? WHY SHOULD I BE SCARED when I've already witnessed more death and depravity these last six months than I can handle for a lifetime

everything I read about Project 2025 sounds like exactly what America already is

You should be afraid of Project 2025, but also recognize that Biden isn't going to stop it. He isn't doing anything to materially oppose fascism, what makes you think that would change if he beats Trump? We did the harm reduction election and now we're in the middle of a genocide and the Democrats are not really getting pushed left at all.

What is to stop them from implementing these plans with Biden in office anyways? He's proven that he won't step up to stop right wing legislation anyways. I highly doubt the color of the presidents tie makes much of a difference here.

I am reminded of how the KPD getting its leaders murdered by Freikorps thugs during the Spartacist uprising

The liberals of the time supported and funded the Freikorps in doing this. You couldn't have prevented this by doing the German equivalent of "Vote Blue" Democrats would absolutely support and embolden the mobs if they formed today.

But many here have disagreed with me, and I need you to persuade me why I shouldn’t be afraid of Project 2025 at all. Even if the chance of that happening is 10%, I’m still not ready to gamble with it.

You should be afraid, but voting for Biden won't stop that. Even if it foiled their plans temporarily, which I doubt, you're only delaying the project by 2-4 years. There is no victory, just buying time.

I’m saying that we have to buy ourselves as much time as possible, even if it means strategic voting,

Time to do what? The left's height was probably around 2020 with Bernie. More time to see the decline of leftist politics? More time for people to become even hopeless? I honestly don't see any indication that waiting is going to do anything. We have less political power than even and I don't see that changing.

It will happen no matter what, one party openly champions it and speaks harshly, the other does so by inaction and once in a while throws some nice words. The US already walked off the cliff so to speak, the lurching feeling of the fall just hasn't caught up to some yet. There's so many ways to keep movements down.

Even if the chance of that happening is 10%,

I'm not here to pick apart your stance, I'm also concerned, but don't use this rhetoric in your arguments imo. Makes your stance seem weak, because there's no way to actually have any idea what the chances of these things are. It's a bad technique for an argument and makes it seem like you're just making stuff up.

feel free to vote for the genocide guy. It just won't make a real difference, and you'll have the weight of voting for genocide on your conscience. the point of agitating against biden isn't just to change people's voting behavior, its to reinforce that electoralism is a waste of time and energy that could maybe make a real difference if spent elsewhere. Politicians rule at the beck and call of capital, if conditions are right for fascism, electing a liberal won't stop it, and if they aren't, electing a fascist won't let them go beyond the constraints placed by capital and the material conditions of the country in enacting their goals.

People on lemmy love to say "well this is just voting, it takes 5 minutes, I'm not campaigning for him, so doesn't prevent me from doing other organizing" which is technically true, but coming on here and hand wringing about it kinda makes me doubt that the asker is actually committed to the struggle.

maybe we're all just larping but if we are to get serious about organizing a revolutionary party it will require a lot more dedication and consistency than constantly hand wringing about electoralism or merely volunteering on the weekends

the early death of nascent left wing movements in America

There is nothing there to speak of. Project 2025 has already happened and killed not just the "nascent left wing movements" but entire communist parties. And it happens every day.

Left wing movements in America are pretty dead as it is and those that have some level of notoriety are filled with radlibs who probably wouldn’t mind more aggressive actions taken against your country and even encourage it.

The goals of project 2025 are inevitable as long as Democrats and Republicans are the only parties in charge. Just look at the liberal darling known as NYC with its long history of leftist movements now building the worlds largest prison to rival Bukele’s dome, all under a Democratic mayor and governor.

would you rather drink 100% hemlock or 99% hemlock (they will both kill you immediately but the guy serving 99% will pretend to feel bad about it)

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I am certainly afraid of the contingencies of Project 2025. But that doesn't mean I'm going to give up everything I've been working toward.

For several years already it has been part of my strategy to not hitch my hopes to state power. So now with the prospect of state power being outright hostile, that doesn't change much. Acquire spaces, encounter working-class people, bring as many of them as possible on board as partisans. Accrue the ability to act cohesively and decisively, while minimizing exposure and traceability. Develop an economic base of workers' cooperatives, that serves to provide comrades with a means of survival and also a deterrent for any direct action taken against us, because they'd be hurting their own national (and especially regional) economy. On the far horizon, construct a culture and dual power that can completely break from the surrounding state and culture if it needs to.

Project 2025 scares me for two reasons. One, because the GOP is being so open about what they'd like to do. Two, because the dem's entire plan to fight it is my least favorite four letter word: "Vote!" The house is in danger of catching on fire but the dems don't want to put it out. They want you to vote and then - somehow - everything will be fixed.

Project 2025 is a thought terminating cliché for liberals to scare them into voting. coeliacmccarthy commented on the judiciary. I'll add that if the Biden and the dems were serious about fighting fascism here's some stuff about the judiciary that needs to happen.

1. They should pack the supreme court. They should have done that during Biden's first two years when they could have.

2. They need to overhaul or junk judicial review.

3. They need to actually investigate Justice Thomas (and other GOP justices?) on corruption and the like.

4. They need to end judge shopping. Wikipedia calls it "forum shopping". The GOP wants as many cases to be redirected to batshit GOP bastions like Texas's wackadoodle Fifth Circuit. The GOP wants GOP judges (or GOP justices) so the GOP gets a really nice GOP outcome. This practice is obscene.

5. [I'm probably forgetting one or two things.]

The chance of #1, #2, or #3 ever happening is zero. The dems might talk about doing something on #4 and they might create a working group to "study" the problem but in the end that's just empty performative bullshit. The actual chance of #4 happening is also zero.

The dems keep screaming about Trumpian fascism. A dem lanyard (or suburban equivalent) would say they never think in meme terms and they'd get offended if you said they did. But they do! They just call that stuff Steven Colbert or editorial cartoons...

The problem is systemic on the right. The problem is the GOP itself. It's Trump's party. But the dems keep doing acting like if only Trump went away - everything could be fixed.

I only mentioned the judiciary but the dems have no desire to do anything. For example - they need to pass federal laws protecting and shoring up voting and electoral systems. But they'll never do that either. And if Biden gets a second term - his next Attorney General will be as bad as Garland.

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• Judicial review in the United States

• Forum shopping

• A starting point for the GOP justices horrible behavior - clarence thomas luxury vacations.

Honestly, if you're worried about project 2025 start organizing. The strat won't save us.

I understand your panic, I feel it too.

But the more I learn, the more I realize that fascism is right here, right now (and maybe we've even always been fascist?? I heard that America is what nazi Germany would look like if they won the war and 200+ years had passed for them to rewrite history etc).

This is happening. So prepare accordingly.

Project 2025 is just a scary name that liberals made up for what Republicans always plan to do when they get into office

The Dems haven't even meaningfully engaged with fucking Project 2010 yet. Project 2025 isn't even on their radar.

I feel like no one is questioning the logistics of Project 2025. I don't believe they're gonna get tens of thousands of conservatives to move to DC. I'd like to see some evidence of how many people they've got lined up for that right now. All I see is they have a budget of 22 mil and that ain't enough.

Now they can fire tens of thousands of liberal federal workers. And they might end up doing that even if they dont get the replacements. But if they want to conduct mass proletarianization of tens of thousands of highly educated workers then I'm sure they'll have a good time.

Look how little Republicans accomplished while they held all three federal branches (2018, before the midterms), and they still accomplished little. Quoting from

I have said that all the reputedly powerful reactionaries are merely paper tigers. The reason is that they are divorced from the people. Look! Was not Hitler a paper tiger? Was Hitler not overthrown? I also said that the tsar of Russia, the emperor of China and Japanese imperialism were all paper tigers. As we know, they were all overthrown. U.S. imperialism has not yet been overthrown and it has the atom bomb. I believe it also will be overthrown. It, too, is a paper tiger.

That does not mean Republicans can and will cause a lot of damage, but they are not as powerful as they seem.

You can fear it because it is scary, but also know that democrats have shown they will not meaningfully oppose Republican agendas. Also, they will only do the smallest bit of harm reduction if you vote for candidates that support genocide. There needs to be a line at some point where leftists stop voting for people like Biden who are almost no different than Trump

liberals - ie, the people who are always wrong about literally everything - are afraid of it, so i'm not worried

Death to America

Bailing water forever is not strategy

He'd need the backing of the military and most of the bourgeoisie to actually install himself as dictator. He has neither, the current neoliberal order is working just fine for the people in power right now.

hey remember back under the brave and heroic obama when a bunch of justices wouldn't admit they might be old as fuck and about to implode and refused to retire, and then they died and Trump got to appoint everyone?

You claim that you're not willing to gamble, but the democrats are, so if you support them you must be too. No matter which side you support, there is no reason to believe that the one you choose won't either actively engage in or enable further fascistisation of the USA. There's a reason we keep telling you they are working together towards the same goals.

Things Project 2025 wants to see that we will definitely not see under Biden:

• Dismantle the EPA and NOAA
• Invoke the insurrection act to punish anyone who called Jan 6th an attempted coup
• Dismantle the department of education
• classify those who talk about being transgender as child sex offenders
• Fire the entire FDA and replace them with people handpicked to ban mifepristone and misoprostol
• Raise the bottom income tax bracket from 10% to 15%, lower the top income tax bracket from 37% to 30%, lower the corporate tax rate from 21% to 18%
• Rescind gender identity, sexual orientation, and sex as protected classes
• "the largest domestic deportation operation in history" (yikes)
• implement unitary executive theory

That's just an assortment, it's not all and it's not the worst things. It's just a little different from blue MAGA.

seems like you should explain it to us, aren't you the adult in the room

The world cannot afford a fascist America. Imagine Hitler with nukes. The world will have to pay a much, much larger price as a result.

The only positive thing that I can think to pass on to folks, as a Burger-lander myself, is that it seems most of the fascists want to be at the top of the food chain too much to allow themselves to be ruled by anybody. Anybody with a small following seems hell bent on throwing all their supposed allies under the first passing bus if it gets them one rung higher than they were or if they can secure their own personal kingdom. World domination doesn't seem to be their goal. There aren't enough of them who want a "fourth Reich" so much as a pocket universe they get to live out their weirdo fantasies in like M. Knight Shamalyan's "The Village".

Thanks for all the comments, I will need to take some time to digest and process them all, but they’ve all been valuable.

I am however slightly dismayed by some who consider that leftist movement in the US is already a lost cause. Remember, anti-imperialism needs to take place from without and within. Nobody else can do it without also the comrades from within the imperial core.

I am reminded of how the KPD getting its leaders murdered by Freikorps thugs during the Spartacist uprising (mind you, a much stronger party than any leftist movement in America today), and how its continued suppression paved the way to Nazi Germany.

You know who was in power in the Weimar government when this happened? Not fascists, not even far right conservatives like the modern GOP. It was social democrats - people significantly to the left of the modern Dem party. They got the Freikorps to murder Rosa and they literally appointed Hitler to power. Don't fool yourself that the Bidens of this country wouldn't do the same to an actual nascent leftist threat to the existing cryptofascist order.

First of all trumps a lazy incompetent moron so any grand overarching plan that doesn't directly benefit him is gonna fall flat in about 72 hours.

Second the only time dems actually oppose anything republicans do, even with empty gestures, is when they lose elections.

If dems win republicans will still do project 2025 except liberals will just scold you when you ask why they aren't doing anything, tell you you can't just snap your fingers and stop stuff you do t like, and tell you actually bidens doing great and if you say otherwise you're actually just a republican.

Lastly this, and particularly the whole "you have tonvpte dem or else there will never be another election is the EXACT SAME FUCKING MESSAGE DEMS TRIED TO SCOLD EVERYBODY WITH BEFPRE LOSING TO TRUMP IN THE EXACY SAME WAY. Then it was shown theybwere wrong that time. Now they're trying the exact same message.

And lastly I'm not more concerned with it then the dems are and dems are flat out refusing to even consider any of the half dozen compromises they could make to lock down the electi9n tonight.

If Joe Biden stopped sending amrs to Isreal, actually forgave student debt like he's been lying about for 5 years, or even send out rhe rest of that stimulus check he lied about during his last campaign he'd win by 10 points.

But they won't do any of those things so why am I expected to do more tongdt them elected than they are.

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If it means so much to you, hold yourself to your own standards and go knock on doors and make phone calls. There's no scenario where there's a super serious threat and your role in defeating it is just hanging out online.

ive always found caring about things to be a dubious practice

America is already fascist.