Fastmail is great but it's a totally different market /use case, you wouldn't go with them if you're privacy oriented. They're better than Google in that sense but you'd go with Proton if you're looking for privacy features.
Also keep in mind Fastmail is based in Australia and their government tends to be anti-privacy with the laws that get passed there.
AU laws are worse than US laws, in fact, the US gets AU to do things for them that would otherwise be illegal if performed by US agents
Proton Mail is great. Can't compare to fastmail because I've never used it. But I enjoy being a paying customer instead of an advertising target and I use every product in their suite. Happy to answer more specific questions
Yeah even the free email is perfect IMO. Got the VPN packade (and more IIRC), very very cheap, fast, and no bullshit.
I've used Fastmail with a custom domain for a few years now... (5+?) and have been really happy with it. I wish it was a bit cheaper (or had a better family plan), but it works well with my terminal email client (mutt).
The web client is pretty quick and I use the calendar there all the time. Fastmail supports all the normal standards such as CalDAV, so you can use it with third party applications.
I looked at both, and went with fastmail because at the time it had a shared calendar you could use, which I do with my family to track events and do scheduling. Fastmail is standard commercial privacy though. Good enough for me, but no where near Proton Mail from what I understand.
I've used both and have had good experiences with both. One benefit of Proton is that emails sent to other Proton users are encrypted, but if you mostly just email people who have @gmail.com addresses, then Gmail's going to store a copy of your emails to that person on their servers anyway.
Both Proton and Fastmail allow you to have a custom domain with a wildcard catch-all address, but the process for replying from that random wildcard address is much more seamless on Fastmail. Proton requires some extra setup and workarounds. But then again Proton is more secure.
It really depends how you use email and what's important to you (security, convenience, features). I mainly just get junk mail and newsletters. For more private communication I use Signal.
I’ve used both. I switched from Fastmail to Proton then back to Fastmail. If you’re just starting on your privacy journey I’d still recommend Proton.
When I switched to Proton they only did email and that’s what I wanted. Instead of focusing on email Proton expanded into other areas like VPNs, Proton Drive, and password managers. I already had good privacy focused solutions for all of those problems, so for me personally I didn’t like where they were spending their development time.
As a Linux desktop user and an iOS mobile user I was often one of the last to have new features available for Protons applications which got to be really annoying.
To use desktop email I had to install Proton bridge which required a GUI to run. It was always having issues. Super frustrating.
I really disliked that Proton didn’t give me a way to use SMTP without going through their bridge. I have three home servers configured with Fastmail app passwords limited to only SMTP to send me notifications for updates and other alerts. This would have been really flaky to make work with Proton.
With Fastmail everything uses open standards, IMAP, SMTP, CalDav, CardDav, and WebDav. It all integrates really well with my laptop and phone without any special tools. I end up using those services much more now. The downside to these open standards is you don’t get end to end encryption that Proton offers.
I also feel as if Fastmail is giving me more for my money. I remember having pain points with Proton and wildcard emails with custom domains and trying to use their hidden email service. All of that is much easier with Fastmail. I also had a few sites not allow Protons masked emails but Fastmail worked fine.
I’d say, if privacy is your main thing and you don’t already have some of the services offered by Proton go with them. If what you’re looking for is as much privacy as email will let you have without using non standard software, and you just really want reliable solid email, Fastmail is the right choice.
With Fastmail everything uses open standards, IMAP, SMTP, CalDav, CardDav, and WebDav. It all integrates really well with my laptop and phone without any special tools. I end up using those services much more now. The downside to these open standards is you don’t get end to end encryption that Proton offers.
Yes, this openness of Fastmail makes them a really good provider unlike Proton that is always pushing for more proprietary garbage and uses "encryption" and an excuse for everything.
I really like Proton.
I'm happy with fastmail. I haven't used Protonmail and have had some doubts about them overclaiming about end to end encryption and stuff like that, but they sound good too. The concept of privacy in email is problematic since a) if the person you are emailing uses gmail, then Google has a copy of your email's plain text no matter how much encryption your own provider uses. b) Even if the email content is encrypted, having the metadata intercepted can be just as invasive, c) even if encrypted, having an archived and authenticated copy of a message can be a big problem due to e.g. rubber hose cryptanalysis, d) for secure communication to exist at all, both people have to be quite security conscious, which isn't easy. Technical features like cryptography are of very little help with that.
There's a good movie "Citizenfour" about Edward Snowden, and I remember reading that when the producers needed to have a private conversation while working on the film, they would go outside and talk, leaving their phones in the office. A real privacy approach has to go well beyond using the right email provider.
I like that Fastmail has humans answering support tickets. That's already light years beyond anything like gmail. I don't know how Proton is about that. Maybe they can do it for paid plans. I don't see how they can do it sustainably for free plans but who knows. The main drawback of fastmail is that it is on the expensive side, but I use it so much that it doesn't sting as much.
If you just want cheap non-megacorp email for your own domains, I like mxroute.com. Their sticker prices can be kind of high, but they frequently have sales with super cheap plans.
I'm a proton unlimited subscriber and it's great. I love the email aliasing from simplelogin, protonvpn, drive storage, calendar, etc. well worth it imo. I love the company.
Note that ProtonMail and Fastmail have quite different feature sets.
ProtonMail does not store your Email in plain text for instance; they cannot read them or be ordered to read them. This comes with some drawbacks such as that standard protocols such as IMAP do not work without a bridge because they necessitates that the server can read all the emails.
Though the bridge works really well
I tried both. Proton email client on Android at least was awful. Super sluggish to navigate. In fact I have a chunk of credit with them because I cancelled too late to get a refund. No idea what I'm going to do with that. I already have a VPN and a Pwd manager...
Fastmail has been snappy and I like that the app has a notes section for quick jotting of ideas. I also like that Rclone can attach directly to Fastmail files. They just recently added Proton Drive support too though.
FYI, that was one of the things I disliked the most about Proton (email client slow). They released the newly rewritten app few weeks ago finally, and it's working great.
I did hear about that. But haven't tried it yet. I'll check it out, thanks!
I've never used Fastmail, so I cannot comment on that but I just closed my Proton account because of their donation to Bellingcat. It might not be a problem for some but it was for me.
https://propagandainfocus.com/proton-mail-imperialist-stooge/
But it looks like Proton does not choose the beneficiaries. From their statement:
‘Recipients are nominated by the Proton community and selected based on community feedback. Proton doesn’t nominate the recipients. Recipients cannot be changed after the raffle begins and the fact that some find Bellingcat controversial was not known beforehand.
While in theory it is nice that an organisation would give over so much power to its customers in terms of where donations go, it does come with the risk of problematic decisions being made. Then later, when they've boxed themselves into a corner, quite unnecessarily, all they can do is go along with what their customers decide and then pass on the morality of that decision to those customers. But that's not really good enough to say "My customers made me do it!" No, you gave your customers too much power in the first place. It's a privacy organisation so surely better to give some money to a group that supports and compliments your aims. Bellingcat (regardless of the problems raised in the article I posted) has nothing to with privacy. If people read the article and decide they are happy with Proton, then go for it. I'd rather people make a decision with their eyes open.
What are you using now? I don't use any other Proton services because they either don't work (Linux) or are a waste of resources (Proton Pass). As far as I can tell, any service that claims to be privacy-oriented is hosted somewhere where privacy isn't a concern at all, like Fastmail in Australia. I understand email isn't a private protocol in the first place, but I'd prefer not to just move to Gmail-lite as far as who I'm giving my information to.
I have had a Tuta (Tutanota) account for years and they've always been good (I just have a free account and it's always been fine for my needs) https://tuta.com/
Proton Mail with a custom domain. The only reason why is that I had it before I knew Fastmail existed and it would be a pain in the ass to move my entire family to it. However, I was VERY tempted when 1Password put Fastmail temporary email support into their product.
Fortunately, Proton Mail just released their own temporary email product based on SimpleLogin.
I use Proton, business tier. My only gripe is that addresses can't be deleted without contacting support, or so I've read. I can't find a delete button on any of my addresses, but can find the button to buy more address slots.
Using custom domains and a catch-all pointing to certain labels is my workaround.
I also find it weird that you can't create unlimited addresses on your custom domains.
For the shared domains, limits in this regard are absolutely understandable as the supply is limited but addresses should have next to no cost for PM when they're under my own domain.
Why is that? @protonmail@mastodon.social
This and the fact that I can't use my mail clients on android (I understand the bridge and the incompatibility with encryption, it makes sense, I just don't like it), stops me from being a paid customer
You aren't missing anything. You can't delete them yourself, but, you can pause them. For now, for me, the pause works just as well because if/when any of my email addys starts getting ridiculous spam I'll just pause it. I run a business off one of my accounts and I don't want any of the emails I've handed out to not reach me so I am fine nit being able to delete (for now). I've just been extra careful to choose addresses that I don't feel a need to delete.
I was using Protonmail, and their other services, and was a paying customer for over a year. But I stopped because of their poor Linux support, and not being able to receive email notifications on my de-googled phone. I made a shift to mailbox.org and am liking it. Yes, I have to manage my own PGP keys, but the experience is much better, in my opinion. Their storage even supports WebDAV. I can encrypt the whole inbox and the files stored in their drive with my own key.
Be careful with mailbox.org and their "your contract period ends soon" email. It actually means "pay us or your data will be irrevocably deleted under 60 days". The mail sounds inconspicuous enough, is rather verbose, and even contains the phrasing "you may silently ignore this email". And you will not be getting a single warning before your data is entirely, irremediably deleted.
And even if you only wait 30 days, not 60, your account gets deleted (but not your emails), so you lose any and all ways of contacting their support (rescuing your emails after that gets much trickier). Speaking of which, make sure you use a widespread browser on a computer to use their support platform: otherwise you will get a visual confirmation that a ticket was created, but none will ever be.
TL;DR: mailbox.org good, but (A) make absolutely sure you always have up to date local backups, and (B) beware of the unexpected caveats and the clumsy, confusing wording.
I use both, bit Proton is more fearute rich. Never mind the fact that this is the first company I've seen that lowers it's prices because they are making good money. That alone is worth a shot.
I am using Proton Mail, paid account, after having moved from Gmail.
I like it; it's private and secure, and I like the web interface and the new android app. To use mail clients like Thunderbird you have to install an app called Proton Bridge - it's basically a dedicated VPN to ensure your email communication is kept secure when communicating between their servers and your client. I've had no problems when I tried it on windows, but I did have issues on Linux with the app forgetting my credentials and forcing me to start from scratch; each time it starts from scratch it downloads your whole mailbox which is frustrating. I'm on KDE and I think it's to do with the Kwallet and PGP. It seems to be working now but tbh I use the web interface mainly in linux, and the android app on my phone.
I have no regrets using proton mail, and I would recommend it. I didn't have problems with the old android app, but the new one is good and seems to address other peoples experiences of slowness previously.
I think that any e-mail service that doesn't provide IMAP/SMTP directly to their servers (like Proton Mail) and uses custom protocols is yet another attempt at vendor lock-in and nobody should use it.
What Proton is doing is pushing for vendor lock-in at any possible point so you’re stuck with what they deem acceptable because it’s easier for them to build a service this way and makes more sense from a business / customer retention perspective.
I always read about people complaining when others use Google or Microsoft for e-mail around here and the self-hosting community. At least if you're in one of those providers you can access your e-mail through standard protocols like IMAP, POP3 and SMTP. How ironic it is to see privacy / freedom die hard fans suddenly going for a company that is far less open than the big providers... just because of marketing. :)
Proton is just a company that wants to make money and found out there was a niche of people who would buy into everything that says "encryption" and "privacy" no matter what the cost. They've learnt how to weaponize "privacy" to push more and more vendor lock-in. Not even Apple does this.
What vendor lock-in are you talking about?
I can take my domain, customize DNS records and in a couple of minutes I am using a new provider. They also allow to export email content, which means I obviously don't lose anything.
With a free email account, you are anyway locked-in as with every provider, because you are using their domain. You can set automatic forwarding in that case.
Vendor lock exists when you invest substantial amount of work to build tools around a specific platform (say, AWS), or where you have no way to easily take the data from one platform out and use something else to do the same thing (say, Meta).
The fact that you can't use SMTP, which is a protocol that requires data on the server is not a vendor lock-in in any sense of the word. It's a decision that depends on having that content e2e encrypted, because the two things are simy incompatible.
Also the code for all Proton clients and the bridge is open source, and the bridge is essentially a client that emulates being a server so that you can use your preferred tools to access the emails. Even in this scenario, there is no vendor lock and all it takes is changing the configuration of your tool from the local bridge address to whatever SMTP server you want to use elsewhere.
Can you please describe in which way you are actually locked-in, to show that you have a clue about what the word means?
The fact that you can’t use SMTP, which is a protocol that requires data on the server is not a vendor lock-in in any sense of the word. It’s a decision that depends on having that content e2e encrypted, because the two things are simy incompatible.
No, they aren't. There are lots of ways to do e2e encryption on e-mail over SMTP (OpenPGP, S/MIME etc.). SMTP itself also supports TLS for secure server-to-server communications (or server-to-client in submission contexts) as well as header minimization options to prevent metadata leakage. And Proton decided NOT to use any of those proven solutions and go for some obscure propriety thing instead because it fits their business better and makes development faster.
Also the code for all Proton clients and the bridge is open source, and the bridge is essentially a client that emulates
The bridge exists yet, you can only run in certain devices AND it only exists until they allow it to exist. You don't know if there are rate limits on the bridge usage and other small details that may restrict your ability to move large amounts of email around.
They also allow to export email content, which means I obviously don’t lose anything.
Decent providers will give you an export option that will export all your e-mail using industry standard formats such as mbox and maildir. Do you know what Proton does? They provide you a convoluted mess of EML files + metadata as JSON files that you can't import to another service without some data loss. Same goes for Contacts and Calendars.
E-mail, contacts, calendars, notes and whatnot is one of the few truly open and truly interoperable solutions we still have nowadays. Protocols like IMAP, POP3, SMTP, WebDAV, CardDAV, CalDAV make it so you can have e-mail at any provider, talk to people from other providers and use any client application you would like - not like the bullshit that Whatsapp, Messenger, Telegram, Signal and others that that you can only communicate with people using the same provider.
Proton mail is so closed that you can't even sync your Proton mail contacts / calendars with iOS or Android - you can only use their closed source mail client to access that data or the webui. Not even Apple, the most anti-competitive and closed company in the world, holds your contacts and calendars hostage - they allow you to sync with ANY CardDAV and CalDAV server and their iCloud service also supports those protocols so you can use it any 3rd party client.
Proton doesn't respect the open internet by not basing their services on those protocols and then they feed miss-information (like the thing about e2e encryption being impossible on SMTP) and by using it you're just contributing to a less open Internet.
