I'm a trans man. I didn't realize how broken men are
I'm a trans man. I didn't realize how broken men are
Before transitioning, I didn't receive short pat hugs or shake hands; I got deep, long hugs.
As a married cis man moving towards his 40s, I can only confirm from my perspective that the male-to-male friendship experience seems broken.
First of all, in college I learned about the performative nature of gender and that gave me the tools I needed to push back against social pressure. I wear what's comfortable, I try to be considate towards others, I talk about emotions, and I do what sounds fun without a care about whether it makes me "feminine" or "gay". I feel that pushing against gender performance expectations has made me a better and fulfilled person.
But male-male friendships are still really hard, and I don't get it. I've lost all of mine, for various reasons. Some of us got busy with careers, families, or whatever other reason. I've reached out now, multiple times, over the last few years, to old male friends and coworkers that I worked with for 5+ years.
The conversation starts with a list of accomplishments. I congratulate them, so glad they're doing well. We're both pretty happy in careers too.
I ask how they're doing, what do they do for fun, you still with that same girl? Fine. Same old. Uh huh.
I suggest that maybe we should do something sometime. Play disc golf. Play some games. Hang out. Meet somewhere. Bring your kids if you want, I'd love to meet them.....and at this point they get distant and eventually ghost me.
After a few instances of this, I started to wonder if there's something wrong with me. Maybe they didn't like me. Maybe I said something wrong. But there was one other instance. A woman I worked with for like 9 months. I called her once to ask for a job reference. And we ended up talking for an hour about our lives, our SOs, life goals etc. Before I could ask, she ended up suggesting that hang out and bring our SOs.
The only male friends I have right now are the male SOs of female friends or my wife's girl friends.
Some of the most fulfilling friend groups we've had since were groups with LGBT and NB folks. And I think that's because, even though gender performance is absolutely an important thing in these groups, there's less pressure for us, a cis couple, to "perform" in a certain way. Our conversations are more real and liberated. It's less anxious and competitive. But at the same time, those friendships eventually end because I don't they can really connect with us - like, we're still outsiders and so there's a bit of a block. I understand, but it sucks.
Because we try to connect with cis men, or even couples, in our area, we either get standoffishness or competitions. Like, we're getting evaluated for our performance of gender / society / life expectations. My wife and I have careers, no kids, and we're fine, but we're also trying to explore who we are outside that. And new cis friendships at our age seems to be less about connecting and doing fun things and more about bragging about accomplishments or complaining about the lack of them over coffee.
And its so hard to find any cis men that are just fucking chill and maybe tired of all the anxiety and social pressure around masculinity and just willing to be a person rather than a "man".
Interesting perspective. It would be really mind-blowing to see the other side of the gender, even though I have no interest in being trans.
One thing I will add to this article is that men are also viewed as little more than bank machines after divorce. People always have the utmost sympathy for any mother who is separated from her children, even if only for a few days. Movie plots can revolve around mothers finding their lost children and being reunited. But for men? We're only the providers, the ones who pay the child support.
I lost my kids (not legally, just boring old classic parental alienation) six years ago following the divorce. Nobody cares, because I'm just a man. Not even my own father cares. He happily continues to see his grandkids because he doesn't want to "take sides." None of my cousins or other parts of my family care either. So long as I'm paying my "support." And I can't complain about it on social media because I'm a man. I'm a stoic. Boys don't cry, remember?
The lack of emotional support for men mentioned in the article is another thing that really exacerbates divorces and leads to suicides. I do feel like if I were the type of person to contemplate suicide (I'm not), I would have definitely done it when my ex took my kids from me. And there would have been no male friends to pull me back from the edge. Those friendships are, to quote the author, superficial to a large degree, or even the ones that aren't are men who are now focused heavily on their own families and wives.
I mean, it's also true all the other stuff about the male privilege and feeling safe and the good things that come with being a man. But it's nice to see the perspective of how we lack emotional support and we're expected to grit our teeth and "walk it off."
I hope I'm not intruding on men's spaces here as a transwoman,
But after my transition that was one of the biggest, most drastic contrasts between the two binary gender's social dynamics. Men just don't get to talk about their feelings- whether it stems from homophobia or misogyny, men are generally seen as an island to themselves and if you display otherwise, it is seen as a weakness worthy of admonition and disrespect. There is still a societal expectation that men are supposed to be stoic, stable providers while women are increasingly allowed liberation. Hard fought, and rightly so but what's the point of "equality" if we don't lift everyone up to the same standards?
I have never felt more emotional support in my entire life than when I stepped into women's spaces, seen as a woman. This just isn't fair or right, regardless of the other privelages men may have. Justice is for everyone, not just minorities.
Yet, it is up to men to decide this. Yes, women can and should support you, but remember who has the most power to change these standards. Women didn't have to demand other women for suffrage, they had to demand it from men. It is the same here for emotional liberation.
*An edit for an addendum: I hope nobody reads this feeling that I'm blaming men, or being accusational. I want to clarify that I believe men do have the power to change this culture of emotional isolationism but it will require self-reflection, effort and a strong demand from oneself and other men to be willing to seek liberation- at the risk of what comes with shaking up the status quo.
It's not only a question of men. If you want a romantic relationship, you need to fit the society's standards for the sex you are looking for. If women are looking for toxic virility, the sad truth is that men who embrace it will have an easier time finding a relationship.
This is not something you take from anyone. And this is the biggest problem many men have with the #metoo era: we acknowledge toxic masculinity is toxic and can even be deadly, but what is the alternative? There is none currently.
There is no model for modern men that is worthy of both modern men and women. This is why we have incels and other hardcore conservative going hard on hating women or even more toxic masculinity.
But I digress. The solution is not in a fight, it's in acceptance from both men and women.
Rather than intruding, transitioned individuals ought to be seen as the strongest allies - on both sides of the fence. The lived experience you being to the table is tremendously valuable because it is so indisputably valid.
Thank you for sharing. I haven't figured out the magic words to communicate this well. I worked at a company that proudly announced longer maternity care for newborns, an astounding (for the US) 6 months. Fathers got 2. I'm a dad and wasn't going to have any more kids, but some of us spoke up and suggested that dads deserve time with their children as well. It was explained that mothers have special connections with children (nursing) and are genetically (yuck) more loving caretakers. Their brains are wired for empathy, so they deserve more time. Remember when we all agreed it was awful to say men are better at logic and reasoning? Me neither because it was so long ago. How is this okay? And we wonder why far more women drop out of the workforce to become full time parents.
There's a theory that women quit to care for kids because they don't have enough support, so let's give them extra time off, extra health care benefits, recovery support, reinforcing stereotypes and gender roles. It's the most ass backward approach to what should be the goal to encourage husbands to take larger roles in families. When a man speaks up, he's part of the patriarchy, suppressing women's voices. Women need to be heard and supported, not mansplained. If anyone can suggest how to change the conversation without being labeled a bully while simultaneously being bullied, I would love to learn.
I'm sorry about the parental alienation you and your children have suffered, that's terrible for everyone.
Not even my own father cares. He happily continues to see his grandkids because he doesn't want to "take sides."
I'm confused why you wouldn't want him to see them. Isn't in your best interest to have people who love you and think you're a good dad in your kids' lives? Somebody to counter the alienating narrative in whatever ways they can?
Oh I'm fine with him seeing his grandkids but he has no empathy for my situation, considering it a dispute between myself and my ex. He even shares details from his trips to see them, as though that wouldn't hurt me to hear about it. His lack of empathy is the problem.
My mother, on the other hand, criticized my ex for the situation and was "cut off." So, despite the fact I'm sad that my mother can't see her grandkids because she, unlike my dad, did take sides, I feel like she had the empathy to stick up for her son and point out it the situation isn't right.
I will also mention my brother was "cut off" because of his close associations with me.
A story all too common. Someone I know mine got divorced a number of years ago. He's a fun, charming, kind, decent looking fellow in good shape for his age, and I can't imagine he did anything to deserve what happened. I don't know all the details of their divorce, but I know all but one of his children was poisoned against him by his (now ex) wife, and it's only because the one happened to be away long term at the time.
His ex has several advanced degrees and is more than capable of earning six figures. And yet, he was still ordered to pay her spousal support and a sizable chunk of his pension. The divorce and family court system is absolutely fucked for men and it's a small wonder so many of them contemplate drastic measures when their lives are ripped away from them.
Feminism gave women all of the same rights and privileges as men and then conveniently "forgot" to balance out all of the exclusive rights women get just for being women.
Feminism gave women all of the same rights and privileges as men
Feminism hasn't done that yet, we're nowhere near equal rights and opportunities for women and if you don't believe me, look at the gender balance in US government roles and who has the money and power.
Let's focus on dismantling patriarchy and the harm it creates for men as well.
I believe that's why the suicide rate in men is so much higher. I recently saw that men are four times more likely to commit suicide than women.
That's accurate, but doesn't convey they entire picture accurately.
Women attempt suicide at a significantly higher rate than men. The ways women tend to attempt suicide are the ways that are least likely to leave a significant mess; overdosing, hanging, drowning, cutting wrists in a bathtub, etc. Men that attempt suicide are more likely to use methods with a high probability of success, like jumping or firearms. At one time, women's incomplete attempts were deemed to be a "cry for help" rather sincere suicide attempts, but this is not correct.
I’m a white, cis, heterosexual American male. I’m supposed to be privileged in every way, feel endlessly guilty over things I cannot control and try not to perpetuate, and never, ever dare suggest any kind of dissatisfaction with my situation.
I wouldn’t know how to express my feelings the way the author has. I’d feel like a misogynistic neckbeard, callous racist, or ungrateful whiner. If, somehow, I didn’t feel these things, someone would quickly, loudly, and condescendingly remind me that I should. They’d then be applauded for putting me in my place.
I can’t thank the author enough for writing this article.
I’m supposed to be privileged in every way, feel endlessly guilty over things I cannot control and try not to perpetuate, and never, ever dare suggest any kind of dissatisfaction with my situation.
Why are you supposed to e.g. "feel endlessly guilty over things you cannot control"?
People who share some of my characteristics have historically done, and are currently doing, absolutely horrible things. Empathy with the victims isn’t enough for some. I’m part of the problem simply by being born, until I prove otherwise.
I can’t blame people who feel some suspicion and resentment, either. It’s justified.
I still get sad at the surprise women have when I move before they do
Is this actually a thing? I've always moved away from everyone's path and never noticed anyone feeling surprised by that. And from every man I've ever walked with, I can only remember one who I noticed didn't make room for other people.
Oh, it's totally a thing. I'm a woman and short, so I'm below the eye line of most men, and I've had men plow right over me on crowded sidewalks or at events. Most men expect the woman to yield in that situation and they'll get annoyed if you don't. It actually is surprising when a man moves out of the way, though I don't know if it shows on my face.
Your two reasons, being below the eye line and being a woman are incongruent. If you're below the eye line and they don't notice you, then how are they expecting you to yield?
It's very interesting to have the view of a women that has transitioned to a men on the feeling side of things. I wonder how the transition is actually affecting his current relationship.
My experience as a man does look like what he talks about however, it's not as crazy as he is saying. His depiction of manhood feels almost satire to me. Almost all of my interaction with men, I feel safe enough to talk about my problems, my feelings and my opinions on things, both personal or not.
Although, I am me and I do not represent all other men, It's not untrue that men are lead to believe that they must be the one to shut up and provide for their community/family. Shut up and die for your family, you country. Shut up and do what you have to do. If you really do that, I think you just end up lonely, sad and probably really suicidal.
it's not as crazy as he is saying. His depiction of manhood feels almost satire to me. Almost all of my interaction with men, I feel safe enough to talk about my problems, my feelings and my opinions on things, both personal or not.
It's spot on for me. 9/10 times I open up to other men, it's either diminished, insulted, or ignored. I count 4 friends who've actually listened to me. 1 ghosted me some time later. 1 listened rarely, only after I listened to him for hours. The other 2 are true chads and I wish life hadn't separated us.
When I open up to women, it's either insulted or saved and later used against me as manipulation.
I just don't anymore. Only people I talk to are therapists.
I wonder if this is one of the reasons why MTF vastly outnumber FTM transitions
Actually they don't. Source
There's a fascinating history for why there may have been significant differences in reported numbers but they seem to have far more to do with the state of the medical establishment and their willingness to marginalize certain people than anything else.
Am I only the only one who thinks comes off like "men arent like women, and therefore broken"?
Not having to spend an hour discussing my feelings is actually one of the things I like about my friendships. I don't want long deep hugs, they make me uncomfortable. And I definitely don't want someone opening up to me about their life struggles. That's not the kind of friendship I like or want.
I guess that makes me broken!
And it's all perfectly fine to not want that.
The issue is there is a heavy expectation for all men to be like that. Many of us, me included, are not at all, and are often ridiculed for it.
I mean it does because those things only make you uncomfortable because you've been conditioned your entire life to feel that way just because you're a man.
Those things are basic human companionship.
So not only am I somehow fundamentallly broken, I've also been duped by society and I'm too stupid to even realize it?
You couldn't be any more insulting if you tried.
100% mate.
All my best friendships have been 99% ripping into each other and telling funny stories. Like I don't tell shitty stories about work because I lived it once and I don't want to live it again. No one else does either. Unless it's to vent about someone because I'm angry. But I do tell funny stories about work.
Having said that even in the most masculine environments when anyone has had an issue or been pushed too fair the guys always rally and pick them back up.
Day to day shit is your own problem. The once in a month or few months is our problem and I'm here for you.
You boss was mean to you. You want to bounce other careers around or see if I can find someone to hire you? No, well grow up everyone's boss is shit. Either leave or deal with it.
Your misses just cheated on you. Right come on I'll get the guys and we'll go to the pub, she's a cunt you're better off without her.
Also hand shakes are fucking great. I usually go for a shake and a quick hug. But the handshake is better.
TIL my friendships with my bros are about 5x healthier than average.
I read this thought it sounded super melodramatic and exaggerated. I guess it’s just more rare to have deep friendships with the boys. Looking back it got me thinking that I might be the weird one with friends that have deep conversations and know/worry about the others mental health.
So i guess, to any guys that read this and felt like it could have been written about them: go out on a limb and talk to your friends. Chances are they want/need a more meaningful friendship too. They are also probably similarly apprehensive about opening up.
I'm with you. Guys are much easier to talk to about a lot of things.
Though girls are easier in some ways.
Talk to a girl about an insecurity and she will beat you with it. Worried about being small oh just join a gym even if you go all the time. Worried about being short, oh I wouldn't ever dream of dating someone shorter than me but there are girls out there who are shorter than you so try with them. Worried about low pay, oh you will get paid more in the future and then you will have worth. Anything like that girls are awful.
Missing something like a dead relative or ex. Girls tend to be better with that.
If you feel sad or talk to girls if you feel vulnerable or want help solving a problem talk to boys.
The comments at the bottom of the article though... I really hate people sometimes.
Oof they are awful, and indicative of the issues raised in the article. So many of the men commenting are defending the "man" stereotype as "natural", and ignoring that men have issues existing in society probably because of the pressures of that stereotype. Nobody wants men to feel isolated and lonely and kill themselves 4x as much. I don't think that's a "natural" part of being a man. At least it doesn't have to be.
I am glad this perspective is being presented. I think ftm people have a unique view of how difficult it can be to be a man that throws light on a lot of men's issues.
I hope this person can present more along these lines. I think I could come up with hundreds of questions.
I'm a trans guy who transitioned in the 2000s. I'd be happy to answer any questions you have on the unique perspective of men's issues from someone who spent 20 ish years as a woman.
Would you be able to answer some more questions please? I'm interested to hear more of your opinion and experience!
- Did you find as a man you are taken more seriously by employers and coworkers? Do you find your opinion became more valuable?
- What do you find are disadvantages of being a male?
Thank you!
Thank you, Kit.
Here are some questions:- I don't know if women really understand how powerful testosterone is. What was/is your experience with it?
- What other biological differences did you notice? Were they temporary or permanent?
- How do you think men and women can better understand each other?
- What are some things you would change about women? And about men?
- What did you think about strip clubs when you were a woman? Did that opinion change as a man? Why and how?
- What did you think about women before transitioning and how did that change after you transitioned? And also about men.
I don't want to wear out my welcome so I'll stop there. No rush to answer, I'd prefer more complete answers to quick ones.
well, women also get more attention therefor they are less lonely. Just look at dating apps: women get flooded with likes and messages, but men... good luck getting a like and if you get one, good luck getting a conversation where you are not the only one putting some effort.
Homie, this is quite a bad take particularly in the face of the article in question. One of the biggest things the author was talking about wasn't quantity of relationships, but quality of relationships. Having first conversations with 50 odd men is not going to produce a quality relationship in which you can talk about significant worries in life, or work through feelings that are causing distress.
but they dont get messages from only 50 year old men, do they? they get messages from a full spectrum of men. The only thing left to do is to choose. When you get to choose and if you know what to look for, you end up finding quality. When you dont get to choose, you either settle down or end up alone. Its offer and demand.
Men are also different from women. Not just physically but mentally. Part of the problem the writer had was not understanding how male friendships work and expecting a mirror of female friendships. Certainly it can be lonelier as a man but in some ways it's just the way we are.
I think the important thing here is that there's absolutely no reason it HAS to be this way. These aren't intrinsic properties of male and female friendships. They are driven primarily by cultural factors and have changed significantly even over recent history.
The problem is not about you. It's about your ability to accept another man who wants a "female" friendship. And apparently you don't want any of that, which makes you part of the problem.
I'm talking about a woman who wanted to physically be a man but is still mentally programmed as a woman could not understand male friendships. It's not that men don't have friends or deep friendships. It's just that they're usually different from the opposite gender.
in some ways it's just the way we are.
Is it? What makes you think that our loneliness is inherent to us? How is it inherent to us?
I'm just saying that men in general have a much easier time being alone. I don't think we should always be alone, but more men than women have the ability to be solitary and happy at the same time.