She got dunked on heavily for this, but itd bad framing of a good argument at worst.
She got dunked on heavily for this, but itd bad framing of a good argument at worst.
Listen, this user is a terminally online anarchist who complains about tankies and calls Stalin genocidal. But shes correct about this one. Mostly. I mean using the term "bedtime abolition" sounds dumb but Im pretty sure she only did that because its a common joke about anarchists. The core point is about how 9-5 work schedules dont work for everyone. As an ND person who struggles with culturally normal sleep schedules, I absolutely agree that society needs to accomodate these things. I absolutely agree that its literally normal talk everyone says that work schedules suck.
People saying "just go to bed on time" or "just pop a melatonin" have never been in the position of trying to do that and failing, just laying awake for hours until you finally fall asleep two hours before you need to be up.
https://nitter.net/moonlit_misfit/status/1743350718944121067
Also side note this interaction filled me with joy.
I mean they're probably some right winger or something.
Mirth is mirth!
I'm trying to interpret the point of the order of the flags. I think it's kind of looped, so US/China are next to each other here, which leaves most of the rest as natural pairs. Israel/Palestine, Ukraine/Russia. But do Greece and Turkey have some beef I'm not familiar with? Because that one still confuses me.
Yeah, I think they have a bit of the "two cultures with a lot of intermingling who both claim they invented XYZ and used to fight about borders" thing going on.
They both claim sovereignty over the whole of Cyprus and both control a portion of it, IIRC.
But do Greece and Turkey have some beef I'm not familiar with?
Of course the Greeks and Turks hate each other. Some Greeks are still salty over the Ottoman Empire. You can tell this poster never listened to the soothing rants of Stavros "The Mind" Halkias.
Bedtime discourse is a waste of energy and bandwidth when 4 day work week is an actually viable improvement that could happen in our lifetimes. Dividing our attention between different time-based issues is a surefire way to reduce effectiveness at getting either of them achieved.
Anyway Flexi-Time is already a standard thing used by huge quantities of businesses, it's widely adopted in the UK even by government. It literally eliminates this issue.
Stop talking about bedtimes and start organising to drag your company into giving Flexitime as a concession to workers.
This kind of specific labor issue is best fought consciously through working class solidarity, such as labor unions or larger political movements. But the emphasis and perspective should always be on labor as a class, not on particular issues that are only a consequence of the capital-labor contradiction.
Well yes that's the solution, and I'm sure she'd agree. Highlighting particular ways in which capitalism crushes people's souls is a part of the discourse, going back to Marx and even further.
It really feels like everyone in this thread is reacting to the political aesthetic of this person and then putting in extra effort to find some sort of dunk on her.
The capitalist/industrialized sleep schedule is not natural. Humans evolved to sleep at different times to provide security to the community. Some rise early, some sleep late, some sleep in "shifts".
Your body will tell you when and how long to sleep, Fuck the bosses' schedules.
i actually only sleep for 4 hours so i can stop off on the way to my landlord's house every morning to leave them a tip (i can't afford a car so im walking)
a podcast told me somehow this is gonna get me pussy and make me a millionaire
Hey, if it was on the internet, it must be true, right? I think there is a rule that you can't lie online.
The making fun of the western 13 year old "anarkiddie" trying to abolish bedtimes is in no way the same argument as someone actively taking about how workers are forced to work unpleasant or unreasonable hours. These are completely unrelated topics. The latter is something I've heard plenty of anarchists actually discuss, as they actually care about worker's rights. The former is just a kid mad at their parents.
Yeah, "abolish bedtimes" is used for folks whose knowledge of anarchism begins and ends at "rules bad." It's derisive shorthand for saying someone is calling themselves an anarchist but hasn't engaged with anarchist literature (on topics like when hierarchy or rules can be justified, for example).
This is kind of how I always thought about it too. Like it’s a jokey epithet for people with an immature, unsophisticated, lifestylist sort of vaguely “anarchist” politics. Was very confused to come in here and see serious political discussion about bedtimes.
this is a largely imaginary figure that you nevertheless find useful to avoid meeting anarchist ideas on their own terms. just like anti-communists who don't oppose more rights for workers, they just don't agree with those crazy tankies who want everyone to get the same haircut.
Permanently Deleted
a 9-5 schedule drains my energy
No shit, that's half the point. All you should have energy left for in the evening is to consume a bit of distilled pop culture and some of your vice of choice
The problem is not just the 9-5 society (or more like 7-3 if you're working in construction or similar). These received schedules doesn't work for everyone and that is a problem. But the problem is also that there is simply not enough time for sleep in most people's daily schedules, no matter at what time of the day you put it.
If you have a full time job and a commute and you have housework and other chores that needs to be done for things to function and you also want to have the luxury of feeling like a person with some kind of agency to decide what you want to use your time on, even if it is just for a little while, then you rarely have the time to also get eight hours of uninterrupted sleep. This gets even worse if you have children.
The only way the ruling liberal-conservative ideology can engage with the problem is to turn it into a question of individual moral shortcomings and shame people for taking a little leisure time for themselves at the end of the day. "Why are you complaining about being sleep deprived, you ungrateful peasant? Just do nothing but work and sleep."
Much agreed. Though I'm sure timing of sleep matters to some, for me the reality is that I feel tired no matter when I go to bed, because most days I don't feel capable of sparing the 8 hours of sleep I need. It takes me a long time to chill out from the anxiety that work and financial chores stir up in me so I rarely really reach the point of genuinely 'relaxing' after work.
Revenge bedtime procrastination is also a big part. I deserve to enjoy some of my life dangit >:(
or more like 7-3 if you're working in construction or similar
Believe me it’s still 7-5 and it’s fucking bullshit.
Scrolling on my phone all night, natural and good, but the boss wants me to go to work in the morning, unnatural and bad.
this is true actually
Unironically.
Yes
The 28-hour day is the coolest idea I have ever heard of and I wish I lived in space so I could do it.
I wish I had a 28 hour day but somehow it was secret to the rest of society so they couldn't invent more bullshit to put in there for me to have to do.
just stay inside all day with blackout curtains, no one can tell you the 28-hour-day is wrong lol
molemen stay winning with the subterranean 28-hour day
She's right about what she's saying but I don't really see how it relates to "bedtime abolition." Like I feel completely the same about sleep schedules. I dropped out of high school primarily because I could not fucking handle being on a consistent daytime schedule every day, week after week. I got third shift / overnight jobs and I'm much, much healthier now. I get actual sleep now. Some people just aren't built for the 9-5.
But what the fuck does that have to do with parents making their kids get to sleep at a reasonable time relative to their responsibilities lol
"Some people aren't built for the 9-5" I wish people would understand this.
Hyper capitalist societies aren't intended to recognize these differences. Only people who can think outside the bubble will even think it... as simple as that is.
When all necessities of life (taking the US as the worst example of first world capitalism) are commodities and not guaranteed, one is forced to work. This is step 0 that every single liberal and conservative stumbles over. Ask a conservative and they'll say "no one makes you work! you choose to work where you want and are compensated based on ability!" and other such dog vomit. Obviously the choice to work is a non choice if the alternative is death. Liberals will say "maybe they can learn new skills? like coding? and also we have programs like WIC and SNAP and Medicaid!" of course it costs money (leaving aside time) to learn skills because they have to be properly creditialed ie a degree or certification of some sort. And neoliberals have spent like 50 years dismantling all of the programs (the few that existed) that were around to help people out who couldn't work at all or worked less or whatever the case may be. Good fucking luck qualifying for SNAP benefits if you work basically at all. Or Medicaid.
The entire system is set up in a way to pit workers against each other. People will literally say, with no sarcasm, that if you do not work or can't work then you are your family's responsibility. And if you have no family? They don't care. You should just die. Which is, holy fuck I get tired of typing this over the years, a literal Nazi talking point. "worthless eaters" they called disabled people. Whether that was elderly, mentally, physically, whatever was going on, if you couldn't do "fair work" or whatever then you're not contributing and thus worthless. The exact opposite of the Communist mantra of course which holds that someone able to work should work, and one unable to work should also receive the basic necessities of life. Worth remembering when dipshits try to cry that the USSR was the same 🤦♂️
So if you set up society to hold a gun to people's heads and force them to work to survive, and over the decades their compensation for work goes down and down (as it goes up and up for the owners) so they go from maybe being able to prop up a cousin, or uncle, or whatever because everyone has plenty. And now they have just enough. But some people still can't work the jobs corporations force them to choose from. Those people, who should be supported by the state, are tossed aside. But first they're ridiculed. Maybe someone has a degenerative disease such as MS and begins their work career able to work "normally" but over time their ability to work goes down and down and eventually they're forced, at a young age, to stop going altogether. "Well, can't you do something" is probably the unspoken question from their family. But it doesn't need to be spoken. Society, capitalism, has made this person, already suffering tremendously due to medical conditions obviously outside their or anyone's control, a burden on their family. In absolute terms anyway. Their family has to work more or seek out higher paying positions, whatever, if they value their family member not dying. In this situation it's purely a rational thought to have "this person is weighing me down!" Now, sure, empathetic and educated people will understand it isn't their fault and instead it's the fault of Capitalists/the government they control. But that doesn't change the immediate reality. And so the thought or maybe spoken words come "why can't you just work a normal job?" A question the person who has become a burden, I'm sure, asks themselves every day. And things can get rather bleak from there.
So in the end, the well-meaning liberal or callous conservative arrive at the same thought "they should just work! this isn't my problem!" and when the decision for that person's life to be the "problem" of society at large has already been made for them, and it has chosen "not our problem either!" the end result is always a circle of "just be normal. just go to work. everyone else does it. just do it." around and around.
This applies to someone who can work, but for whatever legitimate reasons, has trouble with the 9-5 grind. the total hours or the time range. if you work less, someone else will see you as eating from their pie.
This system sucks so fucking bad, and yet so many people have gobbled up propaganda and become totally wedded to the absurd idea that this is how it always was and must always be. It's dissolving the bonds between people, families, all in the pursuit of more profit for a capitalist somewhere. All this suffering so that somebody born into privilege (usually) can continue their privileged life.
I think she uses the term "bedtime abolition" because its a joke used at anarchist expense. Like ive actually seen the post this was triggered by which would probably have been helpful context.
To me it seems that standardized business hours arise from cooperation in the work place, which increased exponentially with the industrial revolution. Capitalist, socialist, whatever, if you have people cooperating in factories (e.g.) then they have to be there at the same time. So "bedtime abolition" seems utopian because it is the practical consequence of a cooperative productive process, and it can't be abolished without abolishing the actual basis, cooperative labor, or more specifically the necessity of simultaneous work. Our production would have to change such that work is parceled out in time-independent units, which is possible for a lot of industries, but by a structural change and not by decree. Software development is cooperative but does not typically require that developers cooperate in real time, for example.
And of course, the above is made all the more severe by the actual duration of the working day. If people only had to work 4 hours per day, then it would be far easier to handle standard business hours of 10a-2p for example, even if they technically are not flexible hours.
That's literally a On Authority passage
Though I totally think that a futuristic communist mode of production would allow for ultra flexible work schedules taking advantage of low workloads, but that's unfortunately not something we will live to see
The primary thing that annoys me about this person's point is the term "bedtime abolition." She doesn't want bedtime abolition at all; no one does (everyone wants to go to bed at some point, after all). What she wants is wakeup-time abolition. And I agree with that. Calling it bedtime abolition has the dual effect of incorrectly expressing the issue, and making the person saying it sound like a whiny child.
Broke: abolish bedtime
Woke: bedtime is 24/7 😴
4am-noon is my sleep schedule too!
About the same for me currently, but its in flux.
Permanently Deleted
I gotta say, I was meant for a second shift schedule. Going to bed at maybe 1 am, waking up at 9? That's the stuff.
3AM-11AM gang
it's not a bad take, but getting there via being reactively pissed about people poking fun at "bedtime abolition" isn't doing much for the case that anarchists are serious. which obviously many anarchists are, but being overly serious about the bedtime abolition bit isn't doing any favors for anarchism.
Yes it is, the fact people use it as a dunk is fucking stupid
i just gotta say, in what world is 4am to noon, natural? in winter months that's a recipe for disaster.
Permanently Deleted
Thats not true at all. ND people's bodies function differently in regards to sleep for example. And im sure youve heard of sleep disorders.
Also the idea that we should have to adjust what our body is currently inclinded to do is capitalist realism anyway.
in hunter gatherer societies, it is necessary for some people to stay awake at night, to look out for predators (of both humans and their livestock/gardens), regimented farming and the unified schedules that are ideal for it are relatively recent inventions in human history, and haven't been around long enough to significantly alter our instincts.
I think this take is a little bit capitalist realism of you comrade.
Capitalist realism? huh? I'm talking about hours of sunlight here. not getting enough sunlight is not "natural" (I realize that term is very loaded, I'm going by their use of it). also I should note that during socialist construction in the USSR, the working day was very regimented, it takes a lot of work to build.
Monkey's paw curls and the next capitalist frontier is the hours between 5PM and 9AM, for all businesses. You can exploit three times as many people!
Why shouldn't third shift be for offices, too!?
i was designed to be a vampire
you merely adopted the dark
I was born in it, moulded by it
The point is fine yet framed in such a way I want to reflexively disagree with it.
what they're saying is true because it's basically "doesn't having to be terrified out of sleep before my body is ready every morning suck?" but to me i want to yell at them because they turned it into some self indulgent manifesto about "bed time abolition". like they were sleepy and tried too hard to publicly intellectualize it
It's four pretty normally worded tweets; it's not that bad.
Yeah I'm a late-nighter too. I used to lie in bed and stare at the ceiling for hours and that's how I got depression
There's basically 3 essential people in the kitchen I work, aside from the chef. One is on mornings and me and another guy are the evening. We basically have a ballpark schedule. I start from 1 to 4pm depending on circumstances and my mood and we kinda just figure out which I'd gonna close during the night and who's gonna come in when based on how busy it was and if it wasn't that busy we just swap which one of us gets out early.
Nah. I've seen people literally argue that giving children a bedtime is by definition oppressive. Hence the bedtime abolition thing.
This person is trying conflate a critique of the 9-5 standard work/schoolschedule, which most of the tankies she hates would agree with, with the sort of juvenile lifestylism that is rife among these types of people. She's just trying to rehabilitate the more embarrassing views of people she considers to be ideologically aligned with her
Edit: literally this right here in the replies, this is why people talk about bedtime abolitionists. This person is literally saying that bedtimes should be abolished!
It's "bad framing" because bedtime isn't the actual problem. If your child needs to be at school at 8am, is perfectly reasonable to have them go to bed at a time that allows them to get enough sleep (potentially). Of course people will dunk on you for "bedtime abolition".
So it's a bad person making a bad argument, why should I pay attention?
I would probably not be staying up this late if it weren't for screens. Sometimes I am working on stuff, but usually I am fucking around and not even having fun because I think I am going to look at one thing and then go to bed, over and over for like two hours. I'm almost definitely more sensitive to the light than others but I know I sleep better and earlier if I avoid them for a while before I go to sleep. I've managed to get into sleep schedules where I naturally wake up early but it is extremely hard to get into and easy to fall out of.
the most common criticisms of anarchist ideas are not that they're wrong, but that they're obviously true, yet meaningless in the face of the bigger picture that this is just how things ought to be
which is just capitalist realism #2
The core flaw of anarchism is that they believe the sort of things like bedtime abolition will lead to a less hostile economy.
I don't understand why "time is a social construct" means that it isn't important, or that it not being important is a prerequisite for respecting people's energy needs. Aren't we just asking for the resting time of workers to be valued and allowed flexibility?
Aren't we just asking for the resting time of workers to be valued and allowed flexibility?
Pretty much yeah. And respect for people's different circadian rythems and such.
Initially i agree that when anarchists say "time abolition " its a rhetorically bad way of asking for a good thing. But then i remember that that people react to police abolition, prison abolition, and decolinization like theyre asking for things they arent asking for, and then people say they are rhetorically bad terms. And i wonder if its really so bad or if its just another radical way of asking for something good. Not really sure.
Not quite what you're looking for, but in Andreas Malm's Fossil Capital he talks about the shift from concrete time - time attached to day/night cycles, seasonal cycles, weather patterns, etc. - to abstract time, which is fungible and standardized. If your mill runs on water power for example, you're beholden to the former. If you buy a fancy new coal steam engine, you can deal in abstract labour hours. You can run your mill at any time of day or any time of night, or even throw up another set of machines, pull in twice as many workers, and get twice as many labour hours out of a day.
One of the most frustrating things about the more professional jobs I've had is that they really are buying a discrete number of labour hours from me. It has nothing to do with the amount of work that needs to be done. When I was in the factory and the machines on our line would go down, they'd tell us to wipe them down. It doesn't take nearly a full shift (not to mention the last shift already pretended to wipe it down) but letting us go home, read a book, do anything productive or enjoyable, or even fucking sit down would be a lapse of their control over the abstract hours they bought from us. It's a similar story in my current tech job, with the only difference being they're just a lot less strict on white-collar machine operators.
Time is obviously a "real thing" in human terms (I don't care about the metaphysics right this second) but even though it's astronomically rigid and having precision in timekeeping opens up a lot of social and material technology, it is a very strange thing to be buying and selling it in slices. It's even stranger to rely on that to have to feed and shelter yourself.
I think there's a really great bit of :graeber: writing on this but I'm not sure where.
Online anarchists are the least politically useful group among the left
Personally for me, I feel like making the work day norm 6 hours a day, 30 hours a week, would solve a lot of my bedtime stress issues. The modern world demands too much of our time to get it all done, the 8 hour work day was built around a different world of nearly 100 years ago.
We need the 4/20/69 model
4 days a week max 20 hours a week max $69 an hour
30 hours a week is still too much time to dedicate to meaningless crap. If the work wasn't under Capitalism, I might feel differently.
I agree with the X'r, but hot take
Everyone should have a self directed bedtime, because that's the best practice for sleep hygiene and preventing insomnia :)
Sorry for my comrades at Wally world, but I really miss going whenever I needed to. Having it open 24/7 makes even more sense now than before because of the prevalence of self checkout. I remember making so many late night runs wether just getting off of work and heading there or on a whim at 3am to see if anyone stole magic cards and pick up what they left behind(I play commander, we use just about everything...[except these days it's like modern or legacy]). Wish they'd bring it back ( a small plus side is more working hours [to have your labor exploited...]).
Permanently Deleted