My daughter was so bullied, we had to pull her out of public school and put her in online school. The school did virtually nothing about it no matter how much we pleaded with them. Even when a girl doxxed her and started prank calling her the school gave both her and my daughter a talking to as if it was my daughter's fault and that was it.
You might have had bad teachers and bad admin, true - but more likely, the school can't do anything.
I'm a teacher, and I cannot tell you how incredibly frustrated I am at how tied my hands are. The admin can't do much, either.
My options: talk sternly to the student. Talk sternly to the parent/guardians. And... that's it.
Send them to the office? Sure. The principal also has those two options, for the most part. Suspending students is something we only do in very rare circumstances, but they really, really try to avoid it, because so often, kids are acting out because of stuff at home, so suspending them only makes the behaviour worse.
We can't do detentions after school or on weekends - we can't force parents to bring their kids in then. Lunch hour detentions, we can't afford dedicated staff to run them, especially since we'd also need them to chase the students down, because it's not like they'll go just because they were told to. We can't fail students any more.
Our district has also even gotten rid of prizes for achievements - no more honor roll, no awards, nothing. Apparently this makes the low performers feel bad, and we couldn't have that.
And talking to the parents? Most parents are honestly great, but also, I never talk to them, because the kids with the great parents, I never need to call home. The asshole kids? Their parents are almost always a nightmare. And it's a waste of time to talk to them.
One kid last year, went after another kid's field trip paperwork with a pair of scissors. Ripped into her like no one's business. Sent an email home describing the situation. I was pretty sure, based on her history, she wasn't really going to destroy his stuff, she was trying to get a rise out of him, so I said something like, "while I believe she was only intending to annoy him, not actually destroy property, it is critical for her to understand that this is absolutely unacceptable behaviour" or something like that.
So rather than telling her kid off, mom goes to the principal to try to get me in trouble for calling her kid annoying.
In application? Doesn't matter what the teachers or even admin want to do. The district, province/state, and country have taken away practically every carrot and stick, when it comes to students with extreme behavior.
It's a huge mess.
I can understand all of that, but when one kid doxxes another and starts making prank calls, which we provided evidence of- we had logs and voicemails- and the administration admonishes both kids, that's on them, not on anyone else. They didn't have to lecture my daughter about bullying the other girl when she was the one being attacked.
Send them to the office? Sure. The principal also has those two options, for the most part. Suspending students is something we only do in very rare circumstances, but they really, really try to avoid it, because so often, kids are acting out because of stuff at home, so suspending them only makes the behaviour worse.
As someone who was bullied all the way until the start of high school, I would probably look the other way if my hypothetical children seriously hurt someone over repeated bullying. I think any alternative is better than that for everyone involved.
Permanently Deleted
My bully flicked an ink refill at my face, went into my eyes, and right in front of the teacher. I punched him, was taken to the principal and he made me APOLOGISE TO THE BULLY, and shake hands with him. The whole education system is broken.
She doesn't even fight back. She doesn't like to do that. I've tried to tell her to do it and she just doesn't have the self-esteem. It's been bullied out of her. I wish I had taken her out sooner. I feel pretty guilty about that. But I didn't really accept that it was a situation that would not be resolved until Halloween, where she wore a really cool anime cat girl costume which looked exactly like a character she loves- I don't remember the name- that my wife made for her. I'm not big on anime, but it was like high-end cosplay level when it came to a costume. My wife is really talented. She was so excited that she wouldn't even take it off all day after my wife finished it. She wore it to school and basically the entire school told her she was a furry and her costume was terrible and made fun of her the entire day. She got up the next day and broke down and said she couldn't go to school anymore and we realized that was something that is not fixable.
Teachers play favorites and they always loved the psychopaths.
that's horrible, pal, i'm so sorry :'( how is she doing now, if you want to share?
put her in online school
the school did virtually nothing
Another school, obviously
Growing up weird and poor in a very conservative and arrogant part of the prairies, I was bullied relentlessly. The teachers never did anything unless it was me fighting back, to which it was suspension and I was a bad kid.
As high school came along, I grew more and more violent to the point I wasn't a loser or a tough guy, but a snap case. The other kids thought I was edgy, the parents thought I was bound for prison, and the teachers probably had a beer when I dropped out.
My mom didn't know what to do. And this was in a time where if your kid was in therapy, it's was your failure as a parent. Combined with my disgust at the idea that I was what was broken, it was off the table. It wasn't until I was in my twenties that I went for psychological help.
By then, I was so suicidal and gone that I wouldn't be near ok until my late thirties. In my mid forties now, I look back and see myself as the potential shooter. I'm holding back my emotions right now, thinking of it. Fortunately, there were no guns at my disposal back, back then is how I feel looking back. I don't know if I'd be able to hurt anyone like that, but I'd fuck myself up.
I lay a lot of blame on a system that allowed it to happen. In a community where open racism and homophobic views were the norm at the time, teachers were as judgmental as the students in some situations. Now maybe if I were white, it'd be easier, but even the broke white kids didn't get any breaks. Especially from the teachers.
Look at me go, a meme has me fucked up thinking back and dumping online. But yeah, there it is.
I'd like to close by saying the town I grew up in is a far different place now. I've moved back and feel good here. I see teachers and bullies who don't make eye contact, will not recognize me at all (which is my favorite) and the occasional happy to see you moments. I don't communicate well in public these days, so it makes it ultra awkward, much like being in high school, talking to students you barely know.
Glad you are okay, my guy.
Fuck man, really sorry that happened. I'm glad you're doing better, keep up the good fight!
I can relate somewhat though probably not to the same degree, I think sometimes people are just assholes. Which is why I do my best to just let my actions speak by just doing my best to help out.
Even if I get angry with my words, I'm usually very direct about what I'm upset about, what bothers me is the degree to which people are often passive aggressive in a way that forces you to respond differently from how you normally would to begin with.
These situations taught me there's no reason in holding back, you're going to get in trouble for doing the right thing. May as well really earn that punishment. I can't even imagine trying to deal with your bully in the age where everyone has a pocket video recorder. Make a statement I say.
That's what schools with zero tolerance policies teach children: hit the bully with extreme prejudice as you're punished anyway even for defending.
The best bully defense is an overwhelming and unrelenting offense. Yes, I realize there are many reasons why bullies bully. As one who was bullied constantly up through middle school, the only thing that made them stop is when I lashed back. Not mediation; not getting teachers involved; not ultimatums. Make them regret choosing you as their target.
As someone that got bullied through middle and high school i relate strongly) but unrelenting offence don't work when your bully have influential parents, in my case that was it, and i got labelled as near fricking war criminal, even though i was bullied middle schooler, but you're absolutely right about common cases)
Sent two to ER, didn't help. Damn kids have no self-preservation instinct, especially bullies for whom playing with fire is their entire thing.
In my opinion, the school is just a glorified daycare and it's terrible at it. Kids are inherently dumb and because they are dumb they are cruel. And, worst thing of all, is that they take example from others so putting them up together is the worst idea possible. Kids should be surrounded by adults, not other kids. I will do my best to prevent mine from going to school, or, at the very least, make sure they attend a smaller one with reduced classes. Less kids = less problems.
What learned was to fight back when no one was watching. No one believed the bully when they said I did it, and I got some payback.
I learned it the semi hard way to not fight back. I did it once and imediatly got "fucked" by the teacher. That I had complained to the teacher and even the principal didn't bother them. So instead of fighting back I let all the bad things I experienced burn into me to a point where I just wanted to kill myself. Holidays temporarily restored my will to live but it wasn't until 8th or 9th grade that stopped thinking about killing myself, since most bullies either dropped out or changed schools.
Can any Americans confirm or refute whether US schools actually punish you for getting beaten up regardless of whether you tried to defend yourself? It sounds way too stupid to be true yet I hear about it again and again.
Also what the hell happened to Stand Your Ground that the US is so infamous for? That doesn't apply to children who are victims of assault and battery?
One of the most common types of bullying in the US is the use of zero tolerance anti bullying rules as a mechanism for bullying.
Example: kid A punches kid B. Then immediately kid A reports kid B for bullying him because kid A knows how the bullying rules work (because they are a bully). Then kid B gets in trouble for getting bullied.
Typically kid A's parents will enthusiastically back then too because their kid "gets bullied all the time" while kid Bs parents aren't experienced with the policies and aren't positive that their kid didn't do something wrong (because they are normal parents), so they don't fight it too hard and just want it to go away.
Ask any teacher in the US and they will tell you that they see this all the time and most every kid that supposedly "gets bullied all the time" is doing exactly this.
In some situations, unfortunately yes. Some schools will take the stupid "zero tolerance" stance so broadly. I do remember a few times growing up that the bullied kid would still get suspended(if they were lucky, at reduced length vs the bully, if enough evidence was available).
Often times (as should be) you're better off fighting back cuz both are gonna get in trouble.
Yes. I got 3 days in alternative school for getting punched because "I was in a fight". The next time I made it worth it and fought back instead of just trying to avoid being hit.
Yep, I pretty quickly learned I should just respond in kind as I'd get punished either way. Generally more severe punishments when it was one sided as well...
Yep! I knew a kid who was punched in the BACK OF THE HEAD without any warning. Same suspension length as the kid who punched
Twin. Prairies.
They used to beat him up a lot. He was smaller and shyer. And they'd wait until I was out of sight so they could get a few licks in before I could run up to them and kick the bully in the fucking kidneys; whatever. Then it was on.
Those are my spare body parts you're pummeling.
Yep, got suspended once for thrusting my rolling back pack at a kids face. He then punched and knocked a lense out of my glasses.
In 11th grade i snapped at one of my bullies and just went white with rage. Next thing I know I'm on top of him choking him. I got board suspended for a week for that. Fuck the US school system.
Yes its real, it's called zero tollerance.
And zero tolerance is zero thought :-(
My schools had a zero tolerance policy for anyone involved in a fight for any reason. I saw a few kids suspended for clearly defending themselves. My father gave me regular talks to let me know that so long as the other person attacked first he'd fully support me defending myself however I needed.
One time in middle school a kid who had been messing with me jumped me on the way out the gates at the end of the day. Neither of us was seriously hurt, but both of us were taken to the office and suspended. When I told them he had attacked me, they responded with "Yes but what did you do to de-escalate the situation?" And it's like, motherfucker my introduction to the situation was a foot in the back!
That was one of the first times even my parents, who I had struggled with as well, took my side against some school bullshit.
“Yes but what did you do to de-escalate the situation?”
Reading this and all these other comments I wonder if at least part of it is just petty bullshit by the school administration, like "How dare the two of you create more work for us at our jobs for which we have licenses! You both need to be punished for that!"
Children are abused left and right in this country. Our schools are dogshit. You're lucky if your public school provides a decent education, because its almost certainly not going to provide anything else.
LPT: Have a friend distract the teacher before you beat your bully's ass.
To be fair, the bully's doing it for attention. The quiet kid's doing it for survival.
I currently work part-time as a bus driver and I just wanna say that it's incredibly hard to determine who is right or wrong when you didn't see what happened and you're just going by what each kid says. If you only see the tail end of a fight, you might wrongfully think the kid retaliating is the bully. 99% of the time it's easier to just separate the kids and/or punish them both equally since it's impossible to determine who the victim and the perpetrator is. It sucks, it feels really bad, but that's the reality of the situation.
This may have been the unfortunate reality 20 years ago. But security cameras are cheap and ubiquitous. If it's on school property (including school busses), then this should be simple. Separate the kids, review the footage, and punish the kid who started it. The one who didn't start it gets an apology and assurances that they're safe and it won't happen again. The whole "punish them both equally" is insane and sociopathic.
The worst kind of bullies will just learn what the cameras are going to capture and not
do you think the schools have the resources to "launch an investigation" every time there's a fight? you may end up with one side of the story anyways, that's ridiculous. don't ask from a school stuff with what the justice system struggles.
Most of the time teachers don't care when kid is bullied, i mean long time ago, when i was in school teachers ignored bullies, saying that they're just playing, when quiet kids got beat up, but when quiet kids retaliate, just like in the meme) teachers come to help) i kinda get it that teachers don't want trouble and when quiet kids endures, teacher won't intervene even if quiet kids gonna ask the teacher, but bully won't gonna endure and gonna screech all over when getting beat up, so i kinda understand why teachers side with bully most of the time, p.s i was quiet kid)
The thing is that if someone is bothering you, then you need to go to the teacher. If you set a precedent that one kid is bothering you, then the teacher is more likely to believe you if you ever snap and hit your bully they'll be more understanding. But if you never say anything and then suddenly snap, then obviously it looks from the outside like you're the bully.
Authorities will always immediately quell any currently-happening hostilities when they arrive on the scene, that's a clearly necessary first step in order to figure out what the hell is happening. A common bullying tactic is to bait the person into fighting back, knowing that the anger will push them so far they get in trouble.
You see, the bully has enormous amounts of experience and practice at toe-ing this precise line. The quiet kid does not, they're quiet, they don't run into it very often. The bully knows this.
So, if you absolutely must hit back because nobody and nothing else is helping, do it quickly, decisively and cleanly, and then stop. Re-arrest your own feelings, and go back to calm. You probably will still get in trouble, but the other kid is more likely to get in trouble with you. And you're less likely to do medically significant damage anyway, if you just hit once instead of wailing on the bully for a solid minute, so, that's better for everyone. If you actually really hurt the kid by accident, that's a whole different ball game, you don't really want that. You just want them to stop doing this in the future, that is all. Deterrence for the future is different from revenge. Revenge is impractical because of how extreme it is, it can create feuds, make things worse. He can avenge your revenge, if you are too harsh. But simple deterrence is a different story, when you're not too harsh, and instead using just enough force to get the safety that you want.
I smoked my bully in front of everyone. He stewed for a few years, then told all the black kids I called them the n word behind their backs. That was the end of any sports for me. They hated me. Some 10 years later I left a party to got get a keg. When I got back luckily someone warned me before I got out of my car that he had arrived and stirred up the same shit. Yep, should've stopped at the one punch. Good lpt.
As I grow older I often forget how much kids and teens suck in how they treat each other sometimes
All reasonable and logical things. But someone bullied accumulates permanent damage for rest of their lives. A bully should expect full repercussions to the max. I sure wished a bunch of them would get run over by cars of broken some legs. They deserve it.
do it quickly, decisively and cleanly, and then stop.
I once punched a dude that was fucking with me in the mouth right in the middle of science class while the teacher had her back to us. He just sat there with a stunned look on his face and stopped. Later after school I ran into him coming from the other direction while I was leaving and he was yelling threatening shit while we were approaching each other. I just kept quiet and kept walking towards him and when I got within speaking distance he said something like "you like punching people in the mouth?" and I was just like "yeah" and kept walking past him. I really thought he was going to attack me but he didn't do anything and didn't fuck with me after that.
Set a warning example once that everybody keeps in mind and you'll be left alone. In elementary three kids came at me. I kicked the closest one in the groin so hard he immediately fell over and couldn't walk for ~half an hour. In middle school I smashed the kid who tried to bully me face-first into the table and then dragged him by his hair out of the classroom and into the toilet: "Come at me again and this will be the room where you die.". Obviously, no teacher was present. In upper school the kid who tried to bully me once sat next to me. Some kid had birthday and we all had plastic forks for the cake on our tables. Bully was trying to steal my stuff from right in front of me: "Try that once more and I'll ram this fork into your hand.". Kept the fork ready. He thought I was bluffing. I wasn't. Most of the fork flew away in splinters in all directions. The sharp remnant stuck in his hand. He screamed. Teacher asked what the commotion was about and I said: "He was clumsy and hurt his hand between the tables.". Gave bully a look from the side and he said nothing. The teacher didn't do anything. In retrospect all those things seem pretty extreme. But I saw what bullies could do to kids, and I was having none of it. One warning example at every school I went to and I was never bullied.
real life don't always go like that though. Hard to fight back when three guys hold you down and punch you in the diaphragm. I was 11, they were 14.
Sometimes it's better just to stay alive and unharmed, even if it means you're afraid.
real life don't always go like that though.
Implicating what I told wasn't real!? It is/was.
Hard to fight back when three guys hold you down and punch you in the diaphragm. I was 11, they were 14.
My kick to the groin was preventive. Don't wait until it is too late. And even if I had lost any of those situations, I'd rather go down fighting than just swallow it. Btw, all those bullies were taller and heavier than me. Be quick and ruthless and the size difference often doesn't matter.
Sometimes it's better just to stay alive and unharmed, even if it means you're afraid.
That's the thing, when not fighting back you seldomly stay unharmed. Again, I'd rather go down fighting.
Just to be sure I'm not giving a false image of myself: I never picked a fight. I never provoked a fight. I avoided escalating situations whenever possible. But at every school I went to, as soon as somebody tried to bully me, I retalliated once, and that always was enough.
I got physically attacked on the playground pretty much every day for years in elementary school. I feared my parents more than the attackers, so I took my lumps and never fought back. The teachers didn't care. One day I had enough. Grabbed the kid punching me, threw him to the ground, and kicked him a couple dozen times. He had bruises on his arms, legs, and torso and probably a few bruised ribs. The principal told me that fighting is never ok, but she didn't see it so couldn't say if there was a fight or not and warned me against getting into any fights in the future because she'd probably see those... First time any staff stood up for me. No problem though, every one of those kids left me alone and never bothered me again.
You had an uncommonly principled principal.
ah, the Ender Wiggin's strategy. The Art of grade school War. A++
The reason zero tolerance policies get so often implemented is because kids tend to be much smarter in how they go about being dicks to one another than in how they do their schoolwork, or, in how they do almost anything else. If you implement one-sided policies that favor the bullied, it's then in the bully's best interest to instead appear bullied, which can end up being a pretty common tactic anyways. There's also more circumstances under which bullying can take place than just physical. Verbal bullying is much harder to prove and do anything about, and the worst is probably when some random kid gets dogpiled for being different, there's not much teachers can do about that even if it's relatively obvious. Which is also resting on the assumption that the teacher isn't also taking part in the bullying as a way to be seen as "cool" by their students, which is unfortunately something that's not uncommon. There's also mutual bullying in which kids can egg each other on until one goes too far, and then maybe zero-tolerance policies end up making some sense, as the group's behavior as a whole is what really needed to stop.
I think taking a more top-down view of the problem, it would seem to me that there's a similar problem going on to when reagan defunded all of the mental institutions, or whatever metaphor you'd wanna use here. There's a lot of attempts to make things right by removing things, rather than adding things. It's bad to lower a student's grade as a result of their malicious behavior, rather than their output, and usually bullies have bad grades anyways. Can't impose on the parents at all because the parents of bullies tend to either be nutso helicopter parents, or tend to be bullies to their children. And then sending kids to other school districts usually just ends up condemning then to a boiling pot of other kids who are maybe worse, or will exacerbate their behavior as it isolates them more, and in extreme cases it can lead them to criminality. Results are going to be kind of mixed on student counseling, if you have a therapist or psychiatrist on campus that's extremely lucky and can also have mixed results, and there's really not anything else you can offer kids other than that, for a variety of reasons. It's relatively hard to get people to stop being self-destructive in the best of times, as an institution, and it's much harder when those people are kids, and when you're inevitably going to be some underfunded institution, since schools funded by the rich, and their property taxes, tend to have children that will engage in less bullying, even if those kids are subject to other psychologically unhealthy pressures.
We could probably solve a good amount of this by just funding schools federally on an equal basis, or with voucher programs based on student population, but nobody wants to fund/expand those programs because schools tend to be underfunded and give bad results already, and we unfortunately have a tendency in this country to give something less money when it performs poorly, as some sort of sacrifice to the free market.
It's bully solidarity.
Ding ding ding, this is the correct answer.
When I was in middle school I got into at least two fights in an outdoor stage that was in plain view from all the windows in the admin office. No security, teachers, or anyone else ever noticed.
I'd like to think it was more because they were these small fights where no one got seriously hurt, rather than the staff not caring at all.
it's interesting that everyone here is a victim. why isn't anyone owning up to being the bully? the ratio is highly suspect.
personally, I was mostly the victim. but I can think of a small number of times where I punched down the pecking order because that's how I poorly dealt with the abuse by the real bullies.
I wish I had been encouraged to fight back by my parents. unfortunately the emotional abuse at home fully contributed to the lack of self esteem required to do so.
Do you think your bullies would spend time on Lemmy? Much less admit they were bullies on a thread like this? I think there might be a bias at play here.
I will admit that I have probably been the main villain if not an asshole in different people's stories.
Well, speak of the devil. I was both. When one suffers, it is the way of life to spread suffering.
What would you like a person like me to say? That I was wrong? Sure. Do I still want to beat the everloving shit out of the people that perpetuated that against me first? Sure. Would I understand the guy that I was bullying to do it to me? 100%.
I suppose it would make it even. Regardless, the meme is applicable. Teachers knew and ignored the fact that I was bullied, but fuck me if I ever stood up for myself.
I was mostly the victim of bullying, sometimes I'd bully others but I kinda knew how bad it was so I never went too far. Except for one guy. He was bullied by the whole school and because my friends had a bit of sympathy for him we were the closest thing to a group of friends he had. We'd eat lunch with him hang out during recess with him. Even we bullied him sometimes, although sometimes he really was insufferable. Many years later, long after we all were done with school and went out own ways I learned that he killed himself. I don't think that the bullying we did was what pushed him to choose to take his life. That would be really narcissistic. I do wish I could take it back and I can't tell him how sorry I am.
"Zero tolerance" policies in my district are so fucked up and easily metagamed by the actual bullies that I had to outright break the rules and feign ignorance to even let kids take a stand and fight back against the bullies. I hated it.
That can be true, but it varies a lot. As a teacher, I can guess at a lot but have proof of very little. So I can do things, but maybe you wouldn't even notice them most of the time. You're looking for a suspension, and that only happens in very specific circumstances.
Of course everything varies by school and district.
This also applies to international politics
I got in a few fights in highschool., each time I was defending myself and each time both parties got suspended. I mean I got my hits in, I was heavy into martial arts so some kids always wanted to test me. Now, I had to pull my son out of public school because of bullying. I have to worry about his mental state, it just feels different.. for me it was kind of fun to fight, nowadays it feels like a kid might show up the next day with a knife or a gun.
I've been in education for a few years and can tell you that a lot (most?) of teachers are cheering on the inside when they see a bully get his ass beat. These school policies aren't being set by teachers.
Let's hope Steven sets things right 😊🙏
Well... they've got a reputation to uphold.
Their geopolitics is the same. Fucking shithole nation.
Bro, I was the biggest bully in grade school. It made me popular with the girls and that's why I mostly did it. And I was tall, so it just made things easier.
Everytime
Not a word. Please learn.
Language is constantly evolving and grammar policing doesn't make you seem smart, just pathetic
