2y ago

Gaza says Israel's strikes on refugee camp kill more than 195 people

www.reuters.com

Hamas-run government says Israeli strikes on Jabalia refugee camp in Gaza killed at least 195 Palestinians, with concerns raised by the UN that these could constitute war crimes.
Evacuation of foreign nationals from Gaza is underway, with 320 already crossed into Egypt; about 7,500 are expected to leave within two weeks.
The strikes targeted Hamas military leaders and infrastructure, with Israel’s campaign responding to Hamas' cross-border attacks from Oct. 7.
U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken is set to visit Israel and Jordan to discuss the conflict and the need to minimize civilian casualties.

Media Bias Fact Check (Reuters):

Overall, we rate Reuters Least Biased based on objective reporting and Very High for factual reporting due to proper sourcing of information with minimal bias and a clean fact check record.

191 comments

When will the World stop Israel indulging in this Blood thirsty revenge ritual ?
when is the the fucking humanity going to stand up to this rotten world order ?
- The world long ago has proven to care very little about actual human beings. The world cares only about politics and power, everything is power struggles no matter the human cost.
  Honestly I am sick and disgusted how for example the US is using another conflict for nationalist propaganda, e.g.
  Posting on social media Biden wrote: "Today, thanks to American leadership, we secured safe passage for wounded Palestinians and for foreign nationals to exit Gaza.
  They reiterate that Israel doesn't have the right to indiscriminately kill civilians, while also vetoing every UN resolution calling for a ceasefire or even a pause to ease the humanitarian situation.
  The world is appalled by 1400 victims, but at the same time turning a blind eye at the human toll on the Palestinian side.
  By the end of this conflict the number of civilian casualties would be much higher, the number of traumatised kids and people, who have lost relatives, and/or roof over their heads would be even higher and this would have solved absolutely nothing as a new wave of desperate people would be pushed into radicalization and hatred towards their oppressor.
  RIP peace and human rights!
  
  The world isn’t turning a blind eye, western powers are. Even then, literally everyone in the UN except the US and Israel voted for a ceasefire.
- The current Israeli government seems to be Fascist and historically Fascists aren't exactly known for caring about the lives of "lesser races", refraining from sacrificing even "their own people" "for the greater good" or once they're engaged in politics by violent means to stop unless force by an even more powerful force.
  Given that those Fascists have the unwavering support of the US (as well as from countries like France, the UK and Germany), they will likely continue the killings until they achieve what they themselves described as a "Second Nakba"
  
  Speaking of facism, Zionists tried to recruit Nazis to fight against the British back in mandate Palestine.
- They won't. Look at Sebrenica.
- Wasn’t Hamas’ attack a revenge for past stolen land and actions too? They’re the same. Hamas is just stupider because they are weaker and will never win by violence
- Engaging groups like Hamas, isis, or other groups that are highly integrated into the civilian population is ugly business. Hamas is not a conventional state actor with military assets on bases or mobilized for action. It’s uncles and sons and brothers in the homes of family.
  The carnage in Gaza is horrifying, but Hamas isn’t likely to form lines and face the IDF in honorable field combat.
  Removing the threat posed by Hamas will have an absolutely horrific cost in civilian lives. After oct 7, “the world” seems to agree that Israel has some right to remove that threat. Hamas leadership crossed a line, and like all war the cost will primarily be paid by the ordinary people who were unlucky enough to be born in the war zone.
  
  Hamas is an Insurrection Movement against an occupying power and said occupying power killing more Palestinians is just going to give it more popular support and even more combatants, unless the objective of said occupying power is to "solve" the problem by killing all Palestinians.
  Even putting the morality of the Occupation aside, the correct military way of going about this would be Counter Insurgency, but that means actually listening to and making the lives of Palestinians better, not making it worse sprinkled with random violence against civilians as the Israeli government has consistently done for 7 decades, so the only other military alternative that stands a chance of success is Genocide (i.e. stop the support for the Insurgency by killing or expelling the entire population).
  
  Israel has been occupying Palestine and killing innocent civilians decades before Hamas was a thing.
  
  And no one has yet proposed a better way to stop Hamas from firing rockets and prevent another attack on Israel. The only advice people give to Israel is "just stop fighting and die". The world left Hamas alone to fester in Gaza and now that they hit Israel too hard and their end was decided everyone and his dog cares for the people of Gaza.
- When will the World stop Israel indulging in this Blood thirsty revenge ritual ?
  I suspect it will end when they have achieved safety for themselves. Unilaterally withdrawing from Gaza didn't work, negotiating with Hamas didn't work, perhaps destroying north Gaza, (and I suspect eventually annexing it,) to create distance from this endlessly violent and belligerent territory will keep their population safe from their explicitly genocidal enemy.
  
  Israel never should have funded Hamas as a counter balance to the PLO: https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/
Actual Reuters headline:
Hamas says Israel's strikes on refugee camp kill more than 195 people
OP’s headline :
Gaza says Israel's strikes on refugee camp kill more than 195 people
- URL says Gaza, Reuters changed the headline after it was posted.
- No editorializing from me. Reuters changed the title after I submitted the post. You can see it cached by Photon here:
  
  So... Shouldn't you now change it to match what Reuters currently shows? (For those that don't know, you can edit titles, unlike with Reddit.)
  EDIT: Downvote this all you want, but since they can be edited shouldn't titles be updated to match an organization's corrected headline? If I'm in the minority, why not?
- I don't see a problem here. I trust their numbers. They have released lists with all the people killed by Israel before and parts of those lists were confirmed by relatives living abroad. "Hamas-run X,Y,Z" is just a cheap way of trying to delegitimize palestinian deaths.
  
  Like the 500 dead in the self inflicted hospital parking lot? Come on.
  Hamas is a motivated and non-credible source for details.
- Gaza's Hamas-run media office
  Its weird seeing both Hamas and non-Hamas government related bodies. Kind of confusing juggling Gaza without Hamas, Gaza with Hamas, and Hamas's militant wing specifically.
  
  Hamas is the defacto government of Palestine for close to ten years now. It's hard to untangle because they are genuinely intertwined. There isn't a significant difference between "government of Gaza" and "Hamas".
- Hamas is literally the elected government of Palestine. They are the authority in Gaza that releases these numbers.
  Correction: Hamas is the government body of Gaza, not of all Palestine, which includes the West Bank.
  
  True, but it’s not like that election wasn’t ripe with controversy around its legitimacy. At the very least there was notable voter intimidation being practiced by a militarized group.
  
  Hamas is literally the elected government of Palestine.
  Hamas is the government of Gaza, not all of Palestine. Palestine also includes the west bank which is under Fatah/PA leadership, they lost a civil war to Hamas in Gaza after Hamas was elected there. They haven't held another election since.
- Thag sucks. But maybe it's Reuters changing their headlines?
  
  You're right. Reuters changed it after this was posted.
- So we are suppose to trust them equally as with that hospital attack.
  
  Hamas never made that claim.
  It was a doctor being interviewed by al-jazeera. Even then it was a mis-translation of what he said that western media just ran with and never fact checked.
  Please stop spreading misinformation to serve as a way to delegitimize one side. There are plenty of REAL facts you can use.
I had somebody tell me yesterday that this refugee camp is in fact a city.
As if bombing a city is better.
- There is both a city and a refigee camp inside the city with the same name.
- War sucks. Belligerent cities are often bombed. Civilians always suffer. This is the inevitable consequence of that city's government slaughtering hundreds of civilians of a state with superior military capabilities; I'm not sure what they thought would happen.
  
  New euphemism dropped: "Belligerent cities" is the new refugee camp.
  
  You could literally take your statement reverse the attacker and defender, and use it for the October 7th attack.
  Either your truly neutral, or you have an agenda. If your neutral, I applaud you and your commitment to pointing out each sides wrongs.
  If you have an agenda, justifying an attack in such a way that it justifies reprisal attacks just invites infinite justified violence
  
  Sure and you can use that as to why Hamas did what they did.
  
  Ah yeah, people being actively ethnically cleansed should just sit back and accept their fate.
  SURELY there is NOT ONE SINGLE thing Israelis did to provoke Oct. 7 attacks.
  Oh yeah, it wasn’t just ONE SINGLE THING. It was THOUSANDS OF THINGS. Those things being war crimes committed against Palestinians. And not just recently, it has happened for decades.
  
  What would a nation do if their lands keep getting seized, your people marginalised, your plight ignored by almost all countries?
It's the third massive bombing of the refugee camp. On of the most densely populated area of Gaza which is the most densely populate area on earth.
Zionist psychopaths are above the law.
The sad thing to me is that I don't think either government genuinely cares about the 195 deaths except as political leverage on Hamas's side and 195 fewer problems in Netanyahu's way.
- I really struggle to see what leverage Hamas gains by fudging their numbers. It feels like a talking point to reduce the fatality count.
  This number, half this number, quarter this number... the political reality is the same. Murmurs of condemnation while the US keeps the money pump going, Israel keeps commiting war crimes, and Palestine shrinks into nothing.
  
  It's mostly to make their own people more sympathetic to their cause, I'd imagine.
I don't see the benefit to slow rolling the release of foreign nationals in Gaza. Why is it going to take 2 weeks?
- Egypt really REALLY doesn't want refugees. They are the biggest hurdle. They are screening everyone ahead of time to ensure they have a place to go.
- Reasonable answer: Because they need to ensure that everyone has a place to go and won't cause an international incident when the border (so Egypt) devices that they don't have a valid passport or are going to become a homeless person or whatever. Also make sure there aren't any known terrorists sneaking out.
  Real answer: So that the IDF can murder more of them
  
  I doubt the real answer is to murder foreigners, someone is benefiting from a slow releases of foreigners.... not sure who gets the most negotiation leverage here.
  
  Why would Egypt want the IDF to murder more civilians?
To be honest, I don't really know who to trust at this point. They both have done/are doing horrible things and innocents are suffering. But I 1000% also believe all parties involved would/do lie to serve their ends.
- Let's just assume that Israel isn't lying. They're telling us that taking out one Hamas official is worth nearly two hundred innocent lives in collateral damage. Best case scenario, they're still monsters.
  
  Fair point.
  
  What is the alternative?
- Human rights orgs say they have trust in Gaza health ministry numbers. It's safe to trust that, I would say. We have no reason or indication to doubt the numbers and they seem consistent with the amount of destruction we are seeing.
- Don't trust either of them. They're both belligerent. They're going to lie the further their goals.
  Seems the only thing they can agree on are that civilians are dying
  
  Hamas is actually quite trustworthy with their numbers if you look purely at history. The israelis are the ones that lie everything together.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
GAZA/JERUSALEM, Nov 2 (Reuters) - More foreign nationals prepared to leave the besieged Gaza Strip on Thursday as the enclave's Hamas-run government said at least 195 Palestinians died in Israel's attacks on the Jabalia refugee camp, strikes that U.N. human rights officials said could be war crimes.
Amid growing international calls for a humanitarian pause in hostilities, conditions in the seaside enclave are increasingly desperate under Israel's assault and tightened blockade.
Dr. Fathi Abu al-Hassan, a U.S. passport holder waiting to cross into Egypt on Wednesday, described hellish conditions inside Gaza without water, food or shelter.
Ashraf Al-Qudra, a spokesman for the Gaza health ministry, said in a televised news conference on Thursday that the main power generator at the Indonesian Hospital was no longer functioning due to lack of fuel.
He plans to meet Israeli officials including Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Friday to voice solidarity but also to reassert the need to minimize Palestinian civilian casualties, his spokesperson said.
In Jordan, Blinken will underscore the importance of protecting civilian lives and reiterate a U.S. commitment to ensure Palestinians are not forcibly displaced from Gaza, a growing concern of the Arab world, Miller said.
The original article contains 851 words, the summary contains 195 words. Saved 77%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
This is not a refugee camp, Hamas adds this title to areas in Gaza.
Just Google 'Jabalia Mall'.
“Concerns raised by the UN that these could constitute war crimes.”
Just dissolve already, you powerless spineless cowards.
You are actively allowing innocent people to die as you do NOTHING
- They unfortunately have very little ability to enforce much of anything.
  They have also done plenty, from keeping peacekeepers stationed in southern Lebanon, running hospitals and schools in Gaza, keeping said hospitals and schools open despite verbal threats by the IDF and bombings, distributing food and water, to providing a platform for the US to prove its hypocrisy on a global stage as it consistently votes against a ceasefire.
  UN officials have repeatedly raised alarms throughout this conflict about the attrocities they are witnessing in Gaza. The problem lies with America and Israel ignoring all of them.
"Reuters was unable to verify the casualty numbers"
Those figures are from Hamas, who has an incentive to inflate casualty numbers.
It seems like a bad idea to stay there given that Jabalia has been under bombardment for the last month, IDF forces have been very clear that civilians need to evacuate north Gaza, they will consider those who remain to be potential enemy combatants, ("terrorist sympathizers," as they phrased it,) and there is a network of Hamas' underground tunnels beneath the area that constitute a valid military target. Of course Hamas wants people to stay where they are despite all this so they can remain human shields and make Israel look bad in the media when the inevitable consequence of refusing to evacuate occurs.
Seems like Israel is sending a strong message that hiding among civilians isn't an effective shield for Hamas anymore. Much of the Palestinian strategy has been to provoke attacks then portray Israel as war criminals when they inevitably counterattack, and it doesn't seem like Israel cares about this concern trolling anymore.
- Can you provide your estimate for the causalities? If Hamas is providing inflated numbers, what is the real figure?
  Is it zero? Hard to imagine its zero civilians killed. But you say 195 is too high. So we are in the range of [0,195] ?

191 comments