Of course I don’t condemn Hamas
Of course I don’t condemn Hamas
And you know who I also don’t condemn?
The IRA
The Viet Minh
John Brown
Haitian slaves who revolted
Native American fighters
Black Panthers
National Liberation Front (Algeria)
Nelson Mandela
The 26th of July Movement
Every one of them were called “terrorists” or something equivalent at some point. Now think about who’s on the opposite of this list. Apartied South Africa, slavers, settlers, Zionists, the US government… There is only one moral and just side to be on and it’s not even a discussion.
Nelson Mandela is a good historical figure to bring up in this context. Liberals love him for his rehabilitated image as a peace negotiator, but he didn’t go to prison for writing letters to the editor.
They love crowing on about Nelson Mandela in prison but always without a single murmur about what he was unjustly imprisoned for
I exposed one Redditor as a collaborator during the Apartheid in South Africa because I immediately went for the carotid artery with the "historical context"
Nelson Mandela was literally considered a terrorist by the US government until 2008
If they had any integrity they still would.
They repeatedly offered to release him from jail in exchange for denouncing socialism. He did no such thing. He also reached a point where he refused to condemn violent rebellion because the non-violence wasn’t getting the goods. What liberals unknowingly worship him for, in their civility fetishism, is his acts of public reconciliation with the colonizers. Would have been good to get that post-apartheid wealth redistribution instead but what’s done is done.
The lesson is, and always will be, to get the goods first.
unarmed Palestinians did peaceful Great March of Return throughout 2018 and were cut down in the thousands by IOF snipers who were having competitions to see how many people they could maim
so done with this historically ignorant moralizing shit about nonviolence from liberals
peaceful protest? yeah hooray let me march with you haha
UH ERM VIOLENCE? THAT’S NOT THE RIGHT WAY TO GET THINGS DONE !!!!1!!!1
all it takes to piss off a liberal is telling them that actual real change doesn’t happen with signing petitions and holding hands. no government gives a single shit or fuck about your lip service and will continue to steamroll oppressed groups regardless
Because liberals don't actually care about what happens to oppressed groups they just want to feel morally superior while never being effected by the conditions of the system they support.
I’d like to hear someone go full cheeky on the “condemn hamas” thing and be all “well actually Hamas had good intelligence that the IDF was embedded with those concertgoers so that was just collateral damage.”
The IDF was using those concertgoers as human shields.
I hate the framing of Hamas as terrorists, if they are considered terrorists, The IOF should be too.
I was reading the 1988 charter and there are parts of it that are sketchy and contain anti semitic stuff, like saying that Jews control the world and media and that they use groups like the Freemasons to push the Zionist agenda. I think there is one quote about killing jews. But in the same charter they talk about aoming for Muslims, Christians and Jews to live peacefully together as they had after the Islamic conquest in the 7th century. And I recognize that the formation of Hamas is a reaction to colonization, displacement, murder and torture. Also I know they did re-write the charter in 2017 to explicitly state that they are militantly against the Zionist occupation and not Jews. It's interesting and evokes a lot of different conflicting feelings for me, I just would be super curious to see an interview with someone who has been part of Hamas for decades speak on this
Edit: I'm working on a very brief history of Palestine and I'm finally working on 1988-1995 so there is probably a lot of context I'm missing at this point in the history too and am really curious to keep moving forward and learn about it.
They are terrorists though. They use terrorism as a tactic and way more often than say, Hezbollah, who could be argued aren't terrorist at all. That said, they're the good guys. Just how we don't condem the allies of WW2 because they committed war crimes (the indiscriminate bombings of German and Japanese cities, mass rape, ect), I don't condemn Hamas despite the fact they use terrorist tactics.
I guess my point is that it is perfectly fine to call a spade a spade.
I guess one problem is that war crimes have a much more concrete definition in public perception than terrorism, so terrorism gets more perceived as a catch all "bad guys" label than a set of tactics.
Just how we don't condem the allies of WW2 because they committed war crimes (the indiscriminate bombings of German and Japanese cities, mass rape, ect)
who excuses mass rape?
very sus of a new user with no comment history to say "we" don't condemn mass-rape...
Unfortunately all of these groups/people (besides Mandela) are the “bad guys” according to most normies
And even Mandela got dirty looks from some liberals, on account of his sin of marxism
this is freaky, just today i was thinking the same thing.
Unlimited genocide upon the israeli colonial state
I see where you're going but I actually really don't see HAMAS as a legit liberation movement, what they do is terrorism and I don't know anything anymore. and I think it doesn't matter.
protest nonviolent = be called a terrorist, continue living under apartheid , get murdered, tortured, terrorized and abused daily.
protest violent = be called a terrorist and continue living under apartheid and being murdered , tortured, terrorized and abused daily.
protest with terrorist tactics = be called a terrorist, face genocide.
this whole mess fucks me up so much, I don't know how to live anymore. I know terrible things happen all the time and the world looks away, but this time it is different. I lost my will lo live on this planet. what is to be gained to be on the 'correct side', when humanity as a whole is failing and failing and failing again.
edit; hey, thanks for the replies, i'm sorry, i lack the energy to respond; as i said, i dont know anything and think it's all irrelevant.
FYI, it makes a lot more sense to ditch the “terrorism” framing. Paraphrasing a news mega poster, the jet plane pilot bombing civilians is never called a terrorist, it’s a definition exclusively used against insurgent resistance.
Are Hamas a militant Islamic fundamentalist group? Now that’s true, and that’s worth having reservations about personally endorsing. However, at this point in time, the united front of Palestinian resistance is unified in support of armed struggle against occupation (a tactic that is, incidentally, legal under international law), and Hamas is part of that front.
Nobody is required to endorse all tactics and ideologies found within the Palestinian resistance. A way to frame it that may bring you peace is that the only way to gain ultimate freedom for their people is with violence. As you yourself recognize, the path of negotiation (Oslo) and peaceful protests (the Marches of Return) have only led to further encroachment and oppression.
So while it is tough to see innocents caught in the crossfire, there’s no such thing as halfway liberation. There is only the boot on the neck of the Palestinians, until there is enough combined force to lift it off
Thank you for putting it that way. Your words really helped ease my mind a bit about this situation.
Mate I can see you’re genuinely working through this, so I’ll just say a couple things:
It’s not like Palestine can put together a formal army, then meet the IOF on the field of battle in formation, following the Queensbury rules or whatever. They are staring down genocide. To me, everything is fair game. Civilians dying is tragic, absolutely. But the blame there is on Israel, not Hamas.
Hamas isn’t perfect - I don’t care for the more hardline religious aspects ofc - but right now they are the only ones in Gaza who can mobilize an armed resistance. That’s why the PFLP and DFLP (who I definitely support) also support Hamas. Same thinking as to why Mao allied with his enemies the KMT when Japan invaded. Gotta make some uncomfortable alliances. Hang together or hang separately.
Stick around Hexbear and I think you’ll see how we work through these issues too.
Things are tough right now, no doubt. But I like something Felix tweeted recently (@byyourlogic on twitter):
Palestinians have resolve and grace the likes of which you and I have never had to tap into. don’t just stew in despair, because they haven’t done that in these 75 years.---
I see where you're going but I actually really don't see HAMAS as a legit liberation movement
If I may engage in good faith, why do you believe this to be the case?
What's the difference in your mind between violent protest and terrorism?
I don't know anything
You could have just kept that and saved yourself a ton of time.
19th century US settler-native conflicts are the closest parallel imo.
Plenty of contemporary liberals: "Do you condemn Chief Little Crow's brutal raids in Renville County??" etc. They and they and their pearl-clutching are now all forgotten; we can only hope for the same historical fate for their contemporaries.
