Wake up babe, Zizek's take on Israel/Palestine just dropped
Wake up babe, Zizek's take on Israel/Palestine just dropped
Slavoj Žižek argues that the solution to a conflict dominated by fundamentalists depends on combining two extremes.
It's dogshit
Hamas and Israeli hardliners are two sides of the same coin. The choice is not one hardline faction or the other; it is between fundamentalists and all those who still believe in the possibility of peaceful co-existence. There can be no compromise between Palestinian and Israeli extremists, who must be combatted with a full-throated defense of Palestinian rights that goes hand-in-hand with an unwavering commitment to the fight against anti-Semitism.
Utopian as this may sound, the two struggles are of a piece. We can and should unconditionally support Israel’s right to defend itself against terrorist attacks. But we also must unconditionally sympathize with the truly desperate and hopeless conditions faced by Palestinians in Gaza and the occupied territories. Those who think there is a “contradiction” in this position are the ones who are effectively blocking a solution.
We can and should unconditionally defend US slave owners' property rights. But we also must unconditionally sympathize with the truly desperate and hopeless conditions faced by enslaved people.
We can and should unconditionally support Nazi Germany's right to rid itself of undesirables. But we also must unconditionally sympathize with the truly desperate and hopeless conditions faced by those placed in concentration camps.
Feel free to add your own
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evidence that other people and the mods disagree isn't going to change your mind.
This is evidence that you aren't even reading what I've been typing in the typical cracker fashion because I've already addressed this.
The thread in question was literally on the front page for 2 days.
Oh you mean the one where 90% of the comments flamed OP for being a liberal over a bunch of nothing burgers? Yeah now I know which one you're talking about.
Are you gonna admit you caused disquiet among leftist, anti-zionist jews and try to avoid that in the future if I share that with you, or are you just going to double down and insist they were wrong to feel alarmed and start yelling at them?
Bruh you don't get to talk to me in that condescending way you pale-skinned maggot bastard. Yes they are wrong to feel alarmed for identifying with a fascist state, if they were actually "anti-zionist" then they would understand that isntreal is fascist first and foremost before anything.
you carelessly called for ethnic cleansing in response to their ethnic cleansing
"if you want to kill a Nazi to prevent them from murdering you then you are just as bad as them"
lol. lmao even
I've already addressed how it isn't ethnic cleansing to say that the occupants of a fascist settler colonial genocide machine and their supporters need to fuck off from the lands they stole but ok.
cause your points don't have anything to do with the original conversation. They don't indicate the slightest bit of engagement with what I'm saying.
Thats something you decided in your own mind because I've explained multiple times why they do, yet you have never demonstrated otherwise. Its so curious to me why you won't explain why you think being jewish somehow makes a settler population immune to the consequences of stealing land and committing crimes against humanity such that you think that calling for their leaving is "ethnic cleansing".
You literally treat "most Israelis are Jewish" and "most of the Jews of the region are Israeli", which are incredibly different in their connotation and implication
You can put the analytical philosoyphy set theory away because I've already explained, multiple times:
"Most of the Jews in the region are Isntreali" because they are settler colonial imports to further the interests of the fascist non-state of isntreal that have no claim to the land, I repeat, they live on stolen land, therefore, it is not ethnic cleansing to say that all these isntreali bastards should return the stolen land and leave.
"b-b-but a small percentage of the israelis are m'indigenous!!"
This is just being pedantic in bad faith in the vein of "not all men bro" as I explained earlier and you failed to respond to. I'm of the opinion now that even they should fuck off too for proudly identifying with the machine that is performing a genocide of their countrymen. You don't seem to understand the sheer weight of what a genocide means. It isn't something you can just apologize for and then continue with business as usual.
If someone is an isntreali, they are a fascist and the enemy. You don't seem to understand this, because again, you are a white concern troll.
Also if you respond with some soy non argument then I will turn this into a mass struggle session, please be warned.
This is just being pedantic in bad faith in the vein of "not all men bro" as I explained earlier and you failed to respond to. I'm of the opinion now that even they should fuck off too for proudly identifying with the machine that is performing a genocide of their countrymen.
"Actually, in retrospect, I am calling for ethnic cleansing of all the jews, even the indigenous ones"
We're not even back to square one, we've gone backwards.
"Actually, in retrospect, I am calling for ethnic cleansing of all the jews, even the indigenous ones"
How is it ethnic cleansing to kick out the foreign perpetrators of genocide and land theft from your lands along with their local accomplices? Please answer this question.
"b-but its because they're jewish" No excuses for genocide and land theft.
If you can't answer this question in a straightforward way then I am really going to find that post and calling the site Stasi on your ass. You're literally grasping at straws because you can't fucking respond in a coherent manner to the fact that isntreal is fundamentally a fascist settler colonial ethnostate and a cancer on this earth before anything, they are the enemy.
along with their local accomplices
Because you construe local accomplices to include anyone identifying as an Israeli, which ae we've agreed, includes almost all the Jews in the region.
You're not kicking them out because they're Jewish, your just kicking out essentially all the Jews based on some other criteria.
That's ethnic cleansing.
your just kicking out essentially all the Jews based on some other criteria.
some other criteria.
Yeah choosing to identify with and support a fascist settler colonial project currently committing genocide is just meaningless, "some other criteria".
Really showing how little you care about how evil isntreal is.
Being a fascist isnt good, supporting genocide is not good. Just because you're Jewish doesn't somehow make it ok.
includes almost all the Jews in the region
"almost all Jews in the region" are settler colonial imports living on land that is not theirs, why do you want to ignore this fact?
almost all Jews in the region" are settler colonial imports living on land that is not theirs, why do you want to ignore this fact?
No one is ignoring this fact. I've even cited demographic numbers in this very conversation with you.
Look if you want to say that essentially all the Jews of Israel need to be expelled, including indigenous ones, go for it, but don't act all surprised when you get accused of advocating for ethnic cleansing, cause ya are when you say things with that effect, even if you think it's justified. If Vietnam had eradicated or expelled the Hmong like many of them feared (enough to flee) for allying with the US, that still would have been ethnic cleansing. Happily, the communists saw no reason to engage in that.
Israel can stops it's genocide, enact a right of return, and transition to a single state Palestine and Israeli under a secular framework with protections for minorities without expelling essentially all it's Jews, and to argue otherwise is to buy into Zionist talking points.
You can't even respond to:
"Yeah choosing to identify with and support a fascist settler colonial project currently committing genocide is just meaningless, "some other criteria"."
lol. lmao again. Truly showing how much you have failed to internalize what "genocide" means when its against brown people. Gormless cracker with shit for brains.
Look if you want to say that essentially all the Jews of Israel need to be expelled, including indigenous ones, go for it
I said "all israelis" not "all the jews of israel" you stupid fuck. Identifying with a fascist settler colonial project should indeed have repercussions, jewish or not. You haven't seemed to grasp how fucking evil isntreal is, its just as bad as nazi germany and identifying with it in this day and age should be addressed in the same manner.
Israel can stops it's genocide, enact a right of return, and transition to a single state Palestine and Israeli under a secular framework with protections for minorities without expelling essentially all it's Jews
There is no "and Israeli" and "secular framework", Palestine is a Sunni Muslim country and whether they secularize or not is up to them. A genocidal settler colonial project has no right to continue existing in any form whatsoever. You're basically doing "muh TINA" soft advocacy for the continued existence of a settler colonial project.
to argue otherwise is to buy into Zionist talking points.
"akshually if you think that the settler soyciety shouldn't set the terms and be in control of its own dissolution without its population being forced to give back their homes you're akshually supporting Zionism"
You're a liberal.
If Vietnam had eradicated or expelled the Hmong like many of them feared (enough to flee) for allying with the US, that still would have been ethnic cleansing. Happily, the communists saw no reason to engage in that.
False analogy btw. The genocide that isntreal and the west is doing is more comparable to what the nazis did to eastern europe. And yes, nazi collaborators were fucking shot when the invading force was expelled.
I said "all israelis" not "all the jews of israel" you stupid fuck.
The jews of Israel are a subset of all Israelis how are you still struggling with this basic concept. And you darned sure don't intend to remove the Israeli bedouin population.
You also ran your mouth about Gazan Jews and ignored my follow ups about them when it became clear such a thing doesn't exist in any appreciable numbers, displaying how much you actually know about the subject.
The genocide that isntreal and the west is doing is more comparable to what the nazis did to eastern europe.
If the Don cossocks has been expelled or liquidated in their entirety due to some of them collaborating with the Nazis, that too would be ethnic cleansing, even though Nazis were a fundamentally fascist and genocidal project. The removal of native ethnic Germans from eastern and central Europe following WW2? Ethnic cleansing.
This isn't hard stuff. You don't get to remove entire groups of people for state crimes against humanity without carefully and specifically evaluating complicity in those crimes. Otherwise you're ethnic cleansing.
The jews of Israel are a subset of all Israelis how are you still struggling with this basic concept.
Israelis are settler colonial demons that need to be kicked out, and being jewish doesnt mean you can occupy stolen land and aid in ethnic cleansing without consequence, how are you still struggling with these basic concepts?
when it became clear such a thing doesn't exist in any appreciable numbers
Ok so its "non appreciable numbers" when the oppressed population has Jews lmao you bloodthirsty racist fuck.
Don cossocks has been expelled or liquidated in their entirety due to some of them collaborating with the Nazis,
Here's the thing, all Isntreali citizens are fascist collaborators in genocide like how all Nazis were fascists for identifying with a genocidal state. Isntreal is a fundamentally fascist state, isntreali is not an ethnicity just like how nazi isnt. Saying otherwise is a lie constructed by the liberal mainstream media.
The Don Cumsocks on the other hand are an ethnic group that existed from before the Nazis, so expelling them all would be, in fact, ethnic cleansing, because "Don Cossack" is an ethnicity and does not imply that all of them are fascists.
AS SUCH: Nobody is saying that all Jews should be kicked out of the region because some of them are isntreali, the line is that all self-identifying israelis should be kicked out and/or face some sort of justice because they are all fascist settler colonists, Jewish or not. There is no excuse for genocide.
Get that through your empty white brainpan will you? Dumb fucking cracker. Its almost like you're paid not to understand the words you see on your screen.
And you darned sure don't intend to remove the Israeli bedouin population.
When have I given any indication that I thought that? JFL that is such an absurd thing to say, grasping at 100 straws for a gotcha.
Israelis are settler colonial demons that need to be kicked out
Some of them; as we've gone round and round, then are indigenous jews, bedouin, christains, druze, and circassians who are
- All Israeli citizens, and largely 'identify as Israeli' in addition to their ethnic affiliation.
- Not settler colonial demons that need to be kicked out.
If we can agree on that, (and thus on the ill-advisedness of shouting 'ALL ISRAELI'S MUST GO"), I think we can wrap up here.
Here's the thing, all Isntreali citizens are fascist collaborators in genocide like how all Nazis were fascists for identifying with a genocidal state.
Absolute nonsense. Israeli citizenship is conferred automatically by birth in many cases, and someone acknowledging that reality is not remotely analogous to taking the steps to affirmatively join a genocidal political party. Thousands of Israeli citizens are anti-zionist activists.
Nobody is saying that all Jews should be kicked out of the region because some of them are isntreali,
They're all Israeli. I ask again; what's the population of Gazan Jews or even non-settlement Jews in the West Bank? If you're kicking out all Israeli's you're kicking out all the jews (or, as is what happening in your case, using some absolutely galaxy-brained definition of 'Israeli' that changes on the fly to accommodate your argument.)
If we can agree on that, (and thus on the ill-advisedness of shouting 'ALL ISRAELI'S MUST GO"), I think we can wrap up here.
Ok see this is it, you don't seem to understand what "isntreali" means. The entire so called "country" of isntreal is built on stolen land and mass killings.
It is a genocidal settler colonial project. Anyone who willingly identifies with it is a fucking scumbag, just like how anyone who identifies as a nazi should be punched at the very least. We've only gone "round and round" because the true nature of isntreal's existence is the fucking point you fail to fucking address.
That Isntreal itself is a fascist genocidal project of pure, fucking, evil. Before anything else. It is not a real country, nor a real ethnicity. It doesn't even have a proper unifying culture beyond genocide.
Therefore, this is just like being a bad faith pedant whenever someone says "death to america" or "plz Xi nuke the shit out of america to kill them all" by saying: "but askhaullyalslajsldalyy there are still native indigenous people there who identify as americans so thats muh ethnic cleansing", completely failing to realize that when you refer to a fascist settler colonial state by name you are referring to the settler population first and foremost. Its already baked into the name itself, because the name refers to the project of utter violence.
"b-b-but muh mass media definition!"
Do you fucking trust the mass media for anything? This is fucking hexbear.net, I don't need to be PC about this shit because I can make the assumption that we are all operating off a common skepticism of mainstream narratives and an understanding of what is truly going on. Because the truth is that Israel isnt real beyond a settler colonial project of utter genocide against Palestine.
And IF individuals and political groups from the populations you listed are patriotic isntreali citizens, then they also need to face some sort of justice like how the fucking Nazi collaborators did and still would if the world was a better place.
All in all this is just an issue of you being a braindead cracker who watches too much CNN and accidentally internalized their worldview, specifically about isntreal ackshually being real.
Israeli citizenship is conferred automatically by birth in many cases, and someone acknowledging that reality is not remotely analogous to taking the steps to affirmatively join a genocidal political party. Thousands of Israeli citizens are anti-zionist activists.
"Absolute nonsense. Nazi citizenship is conferred automatically by birth in many cases, and someone acknowledging that reality is not remotely analogous to taking the steps to affirmatively join a genocidal political party." If you know what your "country" did and still don't renounce your citizenship then that doesn't make you less of a monster. I don't care if they virtue signal about not being Zionists, the very fact that they self-identify as "Isntreali" is a fucking crime against humanity. There are populations of Jews living in occupied Palestine (isntreal) who dont even acknowledge isntreal as their motherland and instead identify as Palestinian.
If you're kicking out all Israeli's you're kicking out all the jews
You fail to acknowledge that being jewish is no excuse for identifying with a settler colonial death machine.