Wake up babe, Zizek's take on Israel/Palestine just dropped
Wake up babe, Zizek's take on Israel/Palestine just dropped
Slavoj Žižek argues that the solution to a conflict dominated by fundamentalists depends on combining two extremes.
It's dogshit
Hamas and Israeli hardliners are two sides of the same coin. The choice is not one hardline faction or the other; it is between fundamentalists and all those who still believe in the possibility of peaceful co-existence. There can be no compromise between Palestinian and Israeli extremists, who must be combatted with a full-throated defense of Palestinian rights that goes hand-in-hand with an unwavering commitment to the fight against anti-Semitism.
Utopian as this may sound, the two struggles are of a piece. We can and should unconditionally support Israel’s right to defend itself against terrorist attacks. But we also must unconditionally sympathize with the truly desperate and hopeless conditions faced by Palestinians in Gaza and the occupied territories. Those who think there is a “contradiction” in this position are the ones who are effectively blocking a solution.
We can and should unconditionally defend US slave owners' property rights. But we also must unconditionally sympathize with the truly desperate and hopeless conditions faced by enslaved people.
We can and should unconditionally support Nazi Germany's right to rid itself of undesirables. But we also must unconditionally sympathize with the truly desperate and hopeless conditions faced by those placed in concentration camps.
Feel free to add your own
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All Jewish Residents of the area are Israeli citizens and identify as Israeli, indigenous (a minority) and settler alike.
This is wrong because there are Jewish people who live on the West Bank and in Gaza. Some settlers defect from the IDF because they don't want to evict them from their homes.
Your argument is that all Israelis must go.
Yeah all enthusiastic citizens of the fascist non state should be kicked out.
Therefore, you think all Jewish residents of the area must go?
Notice how I said "Israelis" and not "Jews"?
"B-B-BUT they all happen to be Jewish!?!??"
Being Jewish doesn't mean you can commit crimes against humanity and steal land without having to give it back and leave. If you're isntreali you are a fascist settler before anything else. And should be treated like one.
And this is literally like saying:
All the SS members who invaded my village and some of their collaborators are Christian.
Your argument is that they should all be shot.
Therefore, you think all the Christians in the area must be killed?
Yeah because I don't care what religion you are. If youre a fascist psycho who is happily committing a genocide in my village, you need to die.
Similarly, if you are isntreali, living in a fascist ethnostate built on stolen land, then you need to leave. I don't care what religion you are, it won't change the fact that the land you live on isn't yours, and you need to give it back.
If you would just specify that the descendants of the indigenous Jewish population and expelled jews could stay, or just all settlers must go,
I shouldn't need to specify "all isntrealis but not X% of the population because they are living in their own ancestral homes" because its common understanding around the world that the word "Israeli" means "settler" and "invader", except to gormless westerners who watch mainstream mass media. It's ceding ground to liberal sensibilities, id fucking do it for the media but not for some idiot libs on our Kurdish bearposting site.
Literally like the right wing types who say "oh not all men bro not all men youre wrong bro".
In fact I'm coming to the conclusion that even the 1% "indigenous" population who identifies as "isntreali" should be kicked out for supporting a genocide of their former countrymen.
you original statement literally caused upset among jewish users here because they took you to mean "get rid of all the jews"
Is there a private group chat which I'm not invited to or...? Because it's just you who is seething, and white I'm guessing?
Is there a private group chat which I'm not invited to or...? Because it's just you who is seething, and white I'm guessing?
There was another thread where a Jewish user specifically confirmed your post was one of the ones that gave them ethnic cleansing concerns. Which is why it was removed. I didn't report it. Seriously, all you have to say is "cheers, I'll be more careful in the future to try not to upset people about ethnic cleansing", but you just absolutely can't admit to have caused the slightest amount of discomfort for some freaking reason.
because its common understanding around the world that the word "Israeli" means "settler" and "invader", except to gormless westerners who watch mainstream mass media
Talking to you is like talking to a wall.
Literally like the right wing types who say "oh not all men bro not all men youre wrong bro".
Yeah if men as a class had a history of pogroms and ethnic cleansing and industrial mass murder this analogy would be cogent.
This is wrong because there are Jewish people who live on the West Bank and in Gaza. Some settlers defect from the IDF because they don't want to evict them from their homes.
I know there are jewish people in the West Bank; tons of them live in illegal settlements. There don't seem to be any indications of Jewish people living in gaza, beyond perhaps a literal handful, under 100 and certainly under 1000. Israeli forces apparently evicted all of them in 2005 as part of peace talks.
There was another thread where a Jewish user specifically confirmed your post was one of the ones that gave them ethnic cleansing concerns.
Link to the thread if you're going to make accusations like this. It's still their problem for identifying in any way with the residents of a fascist state.
Seriously, all you have to say is "cheers, I'll be more careful in the future to try not to upset people about ethnic cleansing"
No I'm not going to walk back my statement because of genocide apologia concern trolling thanks. I gladly admit when I said something fucked on this site, this situation is not one of those times. I'm not apologizing for the shitty liberal understandings of other people because some cracker cries liberal crocodile tears about "muh ethnic cleansing".
"Most nations recognize Isntreal as a state."
IDGAF man the hundreds of thousands of people worldwide currently protesting beg to differ. Palestinians and the vast majority of people on this site don't recognize isntreal as a state and that's enough for me. Nothing will change the fact that it's a settler colonial fascist project of ethnic cleansing. Are you seriously going to deny that because CNN told you otherwise?
Talking to you is like talking to a wall.
I'm not the one concern trolling for isntreal. You haven't responded to the points I laid out in any capacity.
Yeah if men as a class had a history of pogroms and ethnic cleansing and industrial mass murder this analogy would be cogent
Notice how you're conflating "Israeli" with "Jewish" again. What you describe is literally the history of Isntreal, commiting pogroms, ethnic cleansing, and industrial mass murder against Palestinians. Isntreal has never had a history of human rights abuses committed against it.
"B-B-BUT they're mostly Jewish!!!!"
Again, being Jewish doesn't give you the privilege of killing innocent people in a campaign of genocide while weaponizing a history of persecution to deflect criticism.
And thus it is possible to say "all Isntrealis must fuck off" because, the truth is, isntreal is a fascist settler colonial genocide machine before anything else.
It's like that comedian said on TV, you guys think you're superman but in reality you're homelander.
I know there are jewish people in the West Bank; tons of them live in illegal settlements
Isntreal itself is one giant illegal settlement thank you very much. I was referring to indigenous arab Jews.
It's pretty obvious that you're a cracker given how much you fail to acknowledge the evil of a genocide when committed against brown people and instead read statements decrying the genocider in the worst faith possible.
Link to the thread if you're going to make accusations like this. I
Why would I bother doing that? You've already decided you haven't done anything wrong; evidence that other people and the mods disagree isn't going to change your mind. The thread in question was literally on the front page for 2 days. Are you gonna admit you caused disquiet among leftist, anti-zionist jews and try to avoid that in the future if I share that with you, or are you just going to double down and insist they were wrong to feel alarmed and start yelling at them? Cause I'm not going to be a party to that.
No I'm not going to walk back my statement because of genocide apologia concern trolling thanks.
Great, but none of that has happened here.
Nothing will change the fact that it's a settler colonial fascist project of ethnic cleansing. Are you seriously going to deny that because CNN told you otherwise?
No one is denying that. Our conversation started because you carelessly called for ethnic cleansing in response to their ethnic cleansing.
Isntreal itself is one giant illegal settlement thank you very much. I was referring to indigenous arab Jews.
Yeah, how many of them live in Gaza?
You haven't responded to the points I laid out in any capacity.
Because your points don't have anything to do with the original conversation. They don't indicate the slightest bit of engagement with what I'm saying. You literally treat "most Israelis are Jewish" and "most of the Jews of the region are Israeli", which are incredibly different in their connotation and implication, but you treat them as interchangeable. How am I supposed to engage with that?
evidence that other people and the mods disagree isn't going to change your mind.
This is evidence that you aren't even reading what I've been typing in the typical cracker fashion because I've already addressed this.
The thread in question was literally on the front page for 2 days.
Oh you mean the one where 90% of the comments flamed OP for being a liberal over a bunch of nothing burgers? Yeah now I know which one you're talking about.
Are you gonna admit you caused disquiet among leftist, anti-zionist jews and try to avoid that in the future if I share that with you, or are you just going to double down and insist they were wrong to feel alarmed and start yelling at them?
Bruh you don't get to talk to me in that condescending way you pale-skinned maggot bastard. Yes they are wrong to feel alarmed for identifying with a fascist state, if they were actually "anti-zionist" then they would understand that isntreal is fascist first and foremost before anything.
you carelessly called for ethnic cleansing in response to their ethnic cleansing
"if you want to kill a Nazi to prevent them from murdering you then you are just as bad as them"
lol. lmao even
I've already addressed how it isn't ethnic cleansing to say that the occupants of a fascist settler colonial genocide machine and their supporters need to fuck off from the lands they stole but ok.
cause your points don't have anything to do with the original conversation. They don't indicate the slightest bit of engagement with what I'm saying.
Thats something you decided in your own mind because I've explained multiple times why they do, yet you have never demonstrated otherwise. Its so curious to me why you won't explain why you think being jewish somehow makes a settler population immune to the consequences of stealing land and committing crimes against humanity such that you think that calling for their leaving is "ethnic cleansing".
You literally treat "most Israelis are Jewish" and "most of the Jews of the region are Israeli", which are incredibly different in their connotation and implication
You can put the analytical philosoyphy set theory away because I've already explained, multiple times:
"Most of the Jews in the region are Isntreali" because they are settler colonial imports to further the interests of the fascist non-state of isntreal that have no claim to the land, I repeat, they live on stolen land, therefore, it is not ethnic cleansing to say that all these isntreali bastards should return the stolen land and leave.
"b-b-but a small percentage of the israelis are m'indigenous!!"
This is just being pedantic in bad faith in the vein of "not all men bro" as I explained earlier and you failed to respond to. I'm of the opinion now that even they should fuck off too for proudly identifying with the machine that is performing a genocide of their countrymen. You don't seem to understand the sheer weight of what a genocide means. It isn't something you can just apologize for and then continue with business as usual.
If someone is an isntreali, they are a fascist and the enemy. You don't seem to understand this, because again, you are a white concern troll.
Also if you respond with some soy non argument then I will turn this into a mass struggle session, please be warned.
This is just being pedantic in bad faith in the vein of "not all men bro" as I explained earlier and you failed to respond to. I'm of the opinion now that even they should fuck off too for proudly identifying with the machine that is performing a genocide of their countrymen.
"Actually, in retrospect, I am calling for ethnic cleansing of all the jews, even the indigenous ones"
We're not even back to square one, we've gone backwards.
"Actually, in retrospect, I am calling for ethnic cleansing of all the jews, even the indigenous ones"
How is it ethnic cleansing to kick out the foreign perpetrators of genocide and land theft from your lands along with their local accomplices? Please answer this question.
"b-but its because they're jewish" No excuses for genocide and land theft.
If you can't answer this question in a straightforward way then I am really going to find that post and calling the site Stasi on your ass. You're literally grasping at straws because you can't fucking respond in a coherent manner to the fact that isntreal is fundamentally a fascist settler colonial ethnostate and a cancer on this earth before anything, they are the enemy.
along with their local accomplices
Because you construe local accomplices to include anyone identifying as an Israeli, which ae we've agreed, includes almost all the Jews in the region.
You're not kicking them out because they're Jewish, your just kicking out essentially all the Jews based on some other criteria.
That's ethnic cleansing.
your just kicking out essentially all the Jews based on some other criteria.
some other criteria.
Yeah choosing to identify with and support a fascist settler colonial project currently committing genocide is just meaningless, "some other criteria".
Really showing how little you care about how evil isntreal is.
Being a fascist isnt good, supporting genocide is not good. Just because you're Jewish doesn't somehow make it ok.
includes almost all the Jews in the region
"almost all Jews in the region" are settler colonial imports living on land that is not theirs, why do you want to ignore this fact?
almost all Jews in the region" are settler colonial imports living on land that is not theirs, why do you want to ignore this fact?
No one is ignoring this fact. I've even cited demographic numbers in this very conversation with you.
Look if you want to say that essentially all the Jews of Israel need to be expelled, including indigenous ones, go for it, but don't act all surprised when you get accused of advocating for ethnic cleansing, cause ya are when you say things with that effect, even if you think it's justified. If Vietnam had eradicated or expelled the Hmong like many of them feared (enough to flee) for allying with the US, that still would have been ethnic cleansing. Happily, the communists saw no reason to engage in that.
Israel can stops it's genocide, enact a right of return, and transition to a single state Palestine and Israeli under a secular framework with protections for minorities without expelling essentially all it's Jews, and to argue otherwise is to buy into Zionist talking points.
You can't even respond to:
"Yeah choosing to identify with and support a fascist settler colonial project currently committing genocide is just meaningless, "some other criteria"."
lol. lmao again. Truly showing how much you have failed to internalize what "genocide" means when its against brown people. Gormless cracker with shit for brains.
Look if you want to say that essentially all the Jews of Israel need to be expelled, including indigenous ones, go for it
I said "all israelis" not "all the jews of israel" you stupid fuck. Identifying with a fascist settler colonial project should indeed have repercussions, jewish or not. You haven't seemed to grasp how fucking evil isntreal is, its just as bad as nazi germany and identifying with it in this day and age should be addressed in the same manner.
Israel can stops it's genocide, enact a right of return, and transition to a single state Palestine and Israeli under a secular framework with protections for minorities without expelling essentially all it's Jews
There is no "and Israeli" and "secular framework", Palestine is a Sunni Muslim country and whether they secularize or not is up to them. A genocidal settler colonial project has no right to continue existing in any form whatsoever. You're basically doing "muh TINA" soft advocacy for the continued existence of a settler colonial project.
to argue otherwise is to buy into Zionist talking points.
"akshually if you think that the settler soyciety shouldn't set the terms and be in control of its own dissolution without its population being forced to give back their homes you're akshually supporting Zionism"
You're a liberal.
If Vietnam had eradicated or expelled the Hmong like many of them feared (enough to flee) for allying with the US, that still would have been ethnic cleansing. Happily, the communists saw no reason to engage in that.
False analogy btw. The genocide that isntreal and the west is doing is more comparable to what the nazis did to eastern europe. And yes, nazi collaborators were fucking shot when the invading force was expelled.