Wake up babe, Zizek's take on Israel/Palestine just dropped
Wake up babe, Zizek's take on Israel/Palestine just dropped
Slavoj Žižek argues that the solution to a conflict dominated by fundamentalists depends on combining two extremes.
It's dogshit
Hamas and Israeli hardliners are two sides of the same coin. The choice is not one hardline faction or the other; it is between fundamentalists and all those who still believe in the possibility of peaceful co-existence. There can be no compromise between Palestinian and Israeli extremists, who must be combatted with a full-throated defense of Palestinian rights that goes hand-in-hand with an unwavering commitment to the fight against anti-Semitism.
Utopian as this may sound, the two struggles are of a piece. We can and should unconditionally support Israel’s right to defend itself against terrorist attacks. But we also must unconditionally sympathize with the truly desperate and hopeless conditions faced by Palestinians in Gaza and the occupied territories. Those who think there is a “contradiction” in this position are the ones who are effectively blocking a solution.
We can and should unconditionally defend US slave owners' property rights. But we also must unconditionally sympathize with the truly desperate and hopeless conditions faced by enslaved people.
We can and should unconditionally support Nazi Germany's right to rid itself of undesirables. But we also must unconditionally sympathize with the truly desperate and hopeless conditions faced by those placed in concentration camps.
Feel free to add your own
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So yeah, when you say "all Israelis have to go", it sounds like you mean them too.
Ok ik this is 3 days later but this is important to point out that this is a mistaken conflation between Isntreal as a state and the religion of Judaism. Because if 8% of households were Jewish in Palestine in the 1800 that still makes them Palestinian, not isntreali by any means. If they identify as "Israeli" then they need to be reducated, or kicked out, like how Nazis are kicked out of Germany. In fact, NATOpedia says that some potential IDF soldiers actually refuse service because they don't want to evict these Jewish households. Israel itself is doing an antisemitic project of settler colonialism. "All Israelis out" means all settlers and Zionists, Judaism does not factor into this statement. It only sounds like it when processed with the western liberal mainstream media framework that falsely equates "Israeli" with "Jewish".
"Israeli" itself isn't an ethnicity, just like how "Nazi" isn't. It's fascist blood and soil rhetoric to claim isntreali is an actual proper ethnicity and not an ingroup marker for a genocidal project of ethnic cleansing.
I'm not conflating them, I know they're distinct. The fact remains that the vast majority of the Jewish population of the Levant is Israeli, has Israeli citizenship, and identifies as Israeli. That's the reality on the ground, and you pretending to exclude certain components of the Israeli population from your claim on the basis of "actually there is no such thing as an Israeli" means off you're using a silly linguistic prescriptivism shared by essentially no one.
Look I know you don't want to commit ethnic cleansing, but this argument for why you werent accidentally calling for that in the first place relies on everyone using your ad hoc definition of Israeli in stark contrast to ifs general usage. That's why mods removed your post. Because the common language understanding of it was a call for ethnic cleansing even though you don't mean that.
so youre saying:
A: >Most Israelis are Jewish.
B: >Its ethnic cleansing to expel Jewish people from a land.
Therefore:
C: >If you say you want all Israelis to leave, this means you want Jews to leave, which means you are doing Jewish expulsion ergo ethnic cleansing.
This is a silly argument, because its literally like saying.
The psycho currently trying to stab me in the back alley just happens to be Jewish.
Its antisemetism to want to shoot Jewish people.
Therefore:
If I put him down with a glock before he can kill me, then I have done antisemetism because I shot a Jewish person.
To transpose point B to C would imply that people calling for the removal of Isntealis on here do so because Isntrealis are majority Jewish. This is false, because the truth is that we want them to go because they are settlers, first and foremost, who have stolen land in a fascist project of ethnic cleansing and conquest. Them being there is actively harmful to the local population, so they must go.
Being Jewish doesn't give you the privilege to harm others and commit crimes against humanity without repercussions.
By claiming that isntrealis have a right to stay in the lands they conquered because they are jewish and telling them to leave is "muh ethnic cleansing", you're weaponizing the trauma and discrimination that the Jewish people faced for centuries to protect the carrying out of a genocide.
If you go to another country far away, steal someone's home and torture the survivors, you need to at the very least give the home back and leave.
It is not "antisemetism" to say that people have the right to defend their homeland from a violent fascist occupying force that only seeks to slowly kill them in an inhumane open air concentration camp.
It is not advocacy for ethnic cleansing to say that genocidal settlers who stole land must fuck off and give it back.
You don't seem to understand how fucking evil isntreal is as a settler colonial project. Its a fascist cancer on the earth, like hitler's germany, biden's america, victoria's UK or pinochet's chile. In fact many Jewish people in the west also call for the removal of isntreal, and the leaving of everyone who supports it, does that make them advocates for ethnic cleansing against Jews?
I don't care whether or not the mods removed my comment either. It doesn't prove anything, they are human and thus have imperfect judgement sometimes, I do not question their authority on this site and appreciate their efforts, but neither do I think of them as the final arbiters of right and wrong.
The fact still remains that saying "all Israelis must go" is not a call to ethnic cleansing, its a call for the dissolving of a fascist settler colonial project.
so youre saying Most Israelis are Jewish.
Nope, you're commiting something analogous to the converse error in trying to understand my position here. My argument would hold even if 2% of Israelis were jewsih.
No it didn't because your original objection was:
I'm not sure you meant it this way, but this is literally ethnic cleansing. And sure while we like to joke about all these people having second homes in Brooklyn, a lot of them were displaced from the Arab world in 1948, and others have been there even longer, so I don't know where you'd want them to go.
To my comment that "they all should leave their bloody ethnostate built on stolen land".
And we proved that this doesn't make sense because:
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The overwhelming majority of isntrealis are settler colonial imports "displaced" by the west as an invading force to live on land that they stole illegally in a campaign of systematic eradication against the indigenous population. If you steal someone's home and kill half their family, you need to fucking leave and return what you stole to the survivors, no matter where you came from originally. Things are, in fact, this black and white here. Do you deny that isntrealis live on stolen land while they keep the original occupants, who they removed, in an open air concentration camp?
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Being Jewish doesn't somehow make it ok to perform human rights violations on a mass scale and squat in stolen land in a country you invaded, using the history of Judaism as a persecuted group to justify the wests genocidal occupation of stolen land.
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Identifying as "Israeli" is just as fucked as identifying with any other fascist colonial project. Anyone who unironically does should be treated accordingly.
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Telling genocidal settlers to fuck off is not "muh ethnic cleansing advocacy" in any context.
It's basically ignoring the main point that the land is stolen in the most visceral, literal sense, physically stolen, and thus must be returned by kicking out the invaders. It isn't that the original inhabitants suddenly started identifying as isntreali in large numbers in a coup situation, its an invasion from the outside by a settler colonial power structure. Therefore, the invaders must be returned to the outside.
Here are two facts.
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All Jewish Residents of the area are Israeli citizens and identify as Israeli, indigenous (a minority) and settler alike. (You committed the converse error in thinking I was talking about most Israelis being jewish; this is logically non-equivalent).
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Your argument is that all Israelis must go.
Therefore, you think all Jewish residents of the area must go?
I know you don't think but that is what you said originally and what you continue to say, and your ad hoc redefinition of the indigenous Jewish population as Palestinian in contradiction of their identity and citizenship in order to avoid owning up to the plain-language interpretation of your statement is textbook special pleading. If you would just specify that the descendants of the indigenous Jewish population and expelled jews could stay, or just all settlers must go, we could dodge this issue entirely. As it was, you original statement literally caused upset among jewish users here because they took you to mean "get rid of all the jews", because all the jews there are Israeli.
All Jewish Residents of the area are Israeli citizens and identify as Israeli, indigenous (a minority) and settler alike.
This is wrong because there are Jewish people who live on the West Bank and in Gaza. Some settlers defect from the IDF because they don't want to evict them from their homes.
Your argument is that all Israelis must go.
Yeah all enthusiastic citizens of the fascist non state should be kicked out.
Therefore, you think all Jewish residents of the area must go?
Notice how I said "Israelis" and not "Jews"?
"B-B-BUT they all happen to be Jewish!?!??"
Being Jewish doesn't mean you can commit crimes against humanity and steal land without having to give it back and leave. If you're isntreali you are a fascist settler before anything else. And should be treated like one.
And this is literally like saying:
All the SS members who invaded my village and some of their collaborators are Christian.
Your argument is that they should all be shot.
Therefore, you think all the Christians in the area must be killed?
Yeah because I don't care what religion you are. If youre a fascist psycho who is happily committing a genocide in my village, you need to die.
Similarly, if you are isntreali, living in a fascist ethnostate built on stolen land, then you need to leave. I don't care what religion you are, it won't change the fact that the land you live on isn't yours, and you need to give it back.
If you would just specify that the descendants of the indigenous Jewish population and expelled jews could stay, or just all settlers must go,
I shouldn't need to specify "all isntrealis but not X% of the population because they are living in their own ancestral homes" because its common understanding around the world that the word "Israeli" means "settler" and "invader", except to gormless westerners who watch mainstream mass media. It's ceding ground to liberal sensibilities, id fucking do it for the media but not for some idiot libs on our Kurdish bearposting site.
Literally like the right wing types who say "oh not all men bro not all men youre wrong bro".
In fact I'm coming to the conclusion that even the 1% "indigenous" population who identifies as "isntreali" should be kicked out for supporting a genocide of their former countrymen.
you original statement literally caused upset among jewish users here because they took you to mean "get rid of all the jews"
Is there a private group chat which I'm not invited to or...? Because it's just you who is seething, and white I'm guessing?
Is there a private group chat which I'm not invited to or...? Because it's just you who is seething, and white I'm guessing?
There was another thread where a Jewish user specifically confirmed your post was one of the ones that gave them ethnic cleansing concerns. Which is why it was removed. I didn't report it. Seriously, all you have to say is "cheers, I'll be more careful in the future to try not to upset people about ethnic cleansing", but you just absolutely can't admit to have caused the slightest amount of discomfort for some freaking reason.
because its common understanding around the world that the word "Israeli" means "settler" and "invader", except to gormless westerners who watch mainstream mass media
Talking to you is like talking to a wall.
Literally like the right wing types who say "oh not all men bro not all men youre wrong bro".
Yeah if men as a class had a history of pogroms and ethnic cleansing and industrial mass murder this analogy would be cogent.
This is wrong because there are Jewish people who live on the West Bank and in Gaza. Some settlers defect from the IDF because they don't want to evict them from their homes.
I know there are jewish people in the West Bank; tons of them live in illegal settlements. There don't seem to be any indications of Jewish people living in gaza, beyond perhaps a literal handful, under 100 and certainly under 1000. Israeli forces apparently evicted all of them in 2005 as part of peace talks.
There was another thread where a Jewish user specifically confirmed your post was one of the ones that gave them ethnic cleansing concerns.
Link to the thread if you're going to make accusations like this. It's still their problem for identifying in any way with the residents of a fascist state.
Seriously, all you have to say is "cheers, I'll be more careful in the future to try not to upset people about ethnic cleansing"
No I'm not going to walk back my statement because of genocide apologia concern trolling thanks. I gladly admit when I said something fucked on this site, this situation is not one of those times. I'm not apologizing for the shitty liberal understandings of other people because some cracker cries liberal crocodile tears about "muh ethnic cleansing".
"Most nations recognize Isntreal as a state."
IDGAF man the hundreds of thousands of people worldwide currently protesting beg to differ. Palestinians and the vast majority of people on this site don't recognize isntreal as a state and that's enough for me. Nothing will change the fact that it's a settler colonial fascist project of ethnic cleansing. Are you seriously going to deny that because CNN told you otherwise?
Talking to you is like talking to a wall.
I'm not the one concern trolling for isntreal. You haven't responded to the points I laid out in any capacity.
Yeah if men as a class had a history of pogroms and ethnic cleansing and industrial mass murder this analogy would be cogent
Notice how you're conflating "Israeli" with "Jewish" again. What you describe is literally the history of Isntreal, commiting pogroms, ethnic cleansing, and industrial mass murder against Palestinians. Isntreal has never had a history of human rights abuses committed against it.
"B-B-BUT they're mostly Jewish!!!!"
Again, being Jewish doesn't give you the privilege of killing innocent people in a campaign of genocide while weaponizing a history of persecution to deflect criticism.
And thus it is possible to say "all Isntrealis must fuck off" because, the truth is, isntreal is a fascist settler colonial genocide machine before anything else.
It's like that comedian said on TV, you guys think you're superman but in reality you're homelander.
I know there are jewish people in the West Bank; tons of them live in illegal settlements
Isntreal itself is one giant illegal settlement thank you very much. I was referring to indigenous arab Jews.
It's pretty obvious that you're a cracker given how much you fail to acknowledge the evil of a genocide when committed against brown people and instead read statements decrying the genocider in the worst faith possible.
Link to the thread if you're going to make accusations like this. I
Why would I bother doing that? You've already decided you haven't done anything wrong; evidence that other people and the mods disagree isn't going to change your mind. The thread in question was literally on the front page for 2 days. Are you gonna admit you caused disquiet among leftist, anti-zionist jews and try to avoid that in the future if I share that with you, or are you just going to double down and insist they were wrong to feel alarmed and start yelling at them? Cause I'm not going to be a party to that.
No I'm not going to walk back my statement because of genocide apologia concern trolling thanks.
Great, but none of that has happened here.
Nothing will change the fact that it's a settler colonial fascist project of ethnic cleansing. Are you seriously going to deny that because CNN told you otherwise?
No one is denying that. Our conversation started because you carelessly called for ethnic cleansing in response to their ethnic cleansing.
Isntreal itself is one giant illegal settlement thank you very much. I was referring to indigenous arab Jews.
Yeah, how many of them live in Gaza?
You haven't responded to the points I laid out in any capacity.
Because your points don't have anything to do with the original conversation. They don't indicate the slightest bit of engagement with what I'm saying. You literally treat "most Israelis are Jewish" and "most of the Jews of the region are Israeli", which are incredibly different in their connotation and implication, but you treat them as interchangeable. How am I supposed to engage with that?
evidence that other people and the mods disagree isn't going to change your mind.
This is evidence that you aren't even reading what I've been typing in the typical cracker fashion because I've already addressed this.
The thread in question was literally on the front page for 2 days.
Oh you mean the one where 90% of the comments flamed OP for being a liberal over a bunch of nothing burgers? Yeah now I know which one you're talking about.
Are you gonna admit you caused disquiet among leftist, anti-zionist jews and try to avoid that in the future if I share that with you, or are you just going to double down and insist they were wrong to feel alarmed and start yelling at them?
Bruh you don't get to talk to me in that condescending way you pale-skinned maggot bastard. Yes they are wrong to feel alarmed for identifying with a fascist state, if they were actually "anti-zionist" then they would understand that isntreal is fascist first and foremost before anything.
you carelessly called for ethnic cleansing in response to their ethnic cleansing
"if you want to kill a Nazi to prevent them from murdering you then you are just as bad as them"
lol. lmao even
I've already addressed how it isn't ethnic cleansing to say that the occupants of a fascist settler colonial genocide machine and their supporters need to fuck off from the lands they stole but ok.
cause your points don't have anything to do with the original conversation. They don't indicate the slightest bit of engagement with what I'm saying.
Thats something you decided in your own mind because I've explained multiple times why they do, yet you have never demonstrated otherwise. Its so curious to me why you won't explain why you think being jewish somehow makes a settler population immune to the consequences of stealing land and committing crimes against humanity such that you think that calling for their leaving is "ethnic cleansing".
You literally treat "most Israelis are Jewish" and "most of the Jews of the region are Israeli", which are incredibly different in their connotation and implication
You can put the analytical philosoyphy set theory away because I've already explained, multiple times:
"Most of the Jews in the region are Isntreali" because they are settler colonial imports to further the interests of the fascist non-state of isntreal that have no claim to the land, I repeat, they live on stolen land, therefore, it is not ethnic cleansing to say that all these isntreali bastards should return the stolen land and leave.
"b-b-but a small percentage of the israelis are m'indigenous!!"
This is just being pedantic in bad faith in the vein of "not all men bro" as I explained earlier and you failed to respond to. I'm of the opinion now that even they should fuck off too for proudly identifying with the machine that is performing a genocide of their countrymen. You don't seem to understand the sheer weight of what a genocide means. It isn't something you can just apologize for and then continue with business as usual.
If someone is an isntreali, they are a fascist and the enemy. You don't seem to understand this, because again, you are a white concern troll.
Also if you respond with some soy non argument then I will turn this into a mass struggle session, please be warned.
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